Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

Additional comments, thoughts, or ideas pertaining to this thread are welcomed, just remember to respect others beliefs (that includes flaming).

A religion can't be dangerous because it isn't a physical object.

A good point.

What I mean here is Christianity destructive or demeaning to society? Does it make us uphold moral convictions? or does it deprive the minority of...liberal (pardon the expression) views? Does it teach us to respect dignity and honor? Or persecute other beliefs? That's what I'm getting here.

This topic is just begging to turn into a flame war. Few people can rationally debate the topic in a way that isn't, and these boards are worse then most.

My two cents: Like most things, it has good and bad aspects. And taken to extremes almost all things are bad. So the question is meaningless without more context.

DarnYak

Can the beliefs of what some random guy wrote in a book called the Bible really be dangerous? Don't get me wrong, I believe in some form of god, but I do not feel that each time I do something wrong I should have to admit my sin. I feel that you must just live your life the way you want, and what happens, just happens. You can not live in fear of being shunned by a figure that we do not know really exists.

Any unifying philosophy can be dangerous.

Cokemonkey11 wrote:A religion can't be dangerous because it isn't a physical object.

Most of the world's destructive forces aren't physical objects. Alliances, territory lines, political ideologies, they're all just ideas but they have incited some of the worst carnage the world has ever seen.

Yes, a religion can be dangerous. Any time a person is asked to suspend their critical thinking and explicitly obey an authority figure, things can go bad really quickly.

However, that doesn't mean that it's morally right or wrong to be religious. It certainly allows you to be more easily manipulated, but there are actually benefits to thinking this way.

Suppose you are a soldier in a war. If every person in your unit relied solely on their rational critical thinking abilities, they would flee from combat, and you would probably all get picked off individually. But because you have all been brainwashed into acting cohesively, you can overtake your enemy together and suffer minimal losses.

tl;dr: God is a delusion, but not necessarily a good or bad delusion.

Further viewing.

because you have all been brainwashed into acting cohesively, you can overtake your enemy together and suffer minimal losses.

Or you're just trained to think in terms of the group instead of the individual.

I take issue with this because there are many heroic, selfless acts done by members of the military and writing it off as brainwashing I find to be insulting. Even in a situation where soldiers don't fully understand the direct purpose of implications, they're still acting under the presumption someone higher than them has a better grasp of the situation and they have trust in that person. Acting for the overall good is not brainwashing, brainwashing is acting or thinking some way purely because you've been told to.

Not to say I don't understand (or dissagree with) you're overall point.

DarnYak

Kibiyama wrote:

Cokemonkey11 wrote:A religion can't be dangerous because it isn't a physical object.

Most of the world's destructive forces aren't physical objects. Alliances, territory lines, political ideologies, they're all just ideas but they have incited some of the worst carnage the world has ever seen.

Yes, a religion can be dangerous. Any time a person is asked to suspend their critical thinking and explicitly obey an authority figure, things can go bad really quickly.

However, that doesn't mean that it's morally right or wrong to be religious. It certainly allows you to be more easily manipulated, but there are actually benefits to thinking this way.

Suppose you are a soldier in a war. If every person in your unit relied solely on their rational critical thinking abilities, they would flee from combat, and you would probably all get picked off individually. But because you have all been brainwashed into acting cohesively, you can overtake your enemy together and suffer minimal losses.

tl;dr: God is a delusion, but not necessarily a good or bad delusion.

Further viewing.

I have to disagree here. Just because you believe in a religion certainly DOES NOT mean your more 'easily manipulated'. If so, then the same could be true with...say, atheists, agnostics or satanists (which, is really just an elevated from of atheism). Rather, that particular religion or belief can sometimes see an opportunity to manipulate you, providing they want to in the first place. Yes, I will definitely admit the "church" has had a nasty history of taking what God actually said and twisting it so he appears as a mad deity bent on revenge. The story of Martin Luther is a good example of this. This is why I have many "issues" with organized religion, because they all claim that they are right, and 'outsiders' are going to hell....

How is satanism an elated form of atheism? Just because they believe in Satan means that they are elated from people who don't believe in God? That is wrong sir.

They are easily manipulated, if a christian commits a sin, what do they do? They go and tell the preacher their sin and ask for forgiveness, because they feel if they don't they will go to hell, meaning they are manipulated to believing that doing wrong makes you go to hell. If you believe in something that has never been proven to exist, just because you have been told by a preacher, or a book written a couple thousand years ago, you must be easily manipulated.

jamn455 wrote:How is satanism an elated form of atheism? Just because they believe in Satan means that they are elated from people who don't believe in God? That is wrong sir.

They are easily manipulated, if a christian commits a sin, what do they do? They go and tell the preacher their sin and ask for forgiveness, because they feel if they don't they will go to hell, meaning they are manipulated to believing that doing wrong makes you go to hell. If you believe in something that has never been proven to exist, just because you have been told by a preacher, or a book written a couple thousand years ago, you must be easily manipulated.

Look up Satanism. They basically believe they are a god. No, they do NOT worship satan, or drink goats blood, or cut up virgins and little babies.

Also, I said "basically", meaning close to.

That sir, are Catholics, not the entire christian faith, thus, you are wrong sir. I used to be an Adventist, I should know. And there is absolutely nothing about going to our preacher and asking for "forgiveness". Nothing. You clearly have no understanding of any christian faith, at least do research before belittling it.

Kibiyama wrote:

Cokemonkey11 wrote:A religion can't be dangerous because it isn't a physical object.

Most of the world's destructive forces aren't physical objects. Alliances, territory lines, political ideologies, they're all just ideas but they have incited some of the worst carnage the world has ever seen.

Yes, a religion can be dangerous. Any time a person is asked to suspend their critical thinking and explicitly obey an authority figure, things can go bad really quickly.

However, that doesn't mean that it's morally right or wrong to be religious. It certainly allows you to be more easily manipulated, but there are actually benefits to thinking this way.

Suppose you are a soldier in a war. If every person in your unit relied solely on their rational critical thinking abilities, they would flee from combat, and you would probably all get picked off individually. But because you have all been brainwashed into acting cohesively, you can overtake your enemy together and suffer minimal losses.

tl;dr: God is a delusion, but not necessarily a good or bad delusion.

Further viewing.

Maybe it's dangerous to have friends and join sports teams then

BTW TED ftw

DarnYak wrote:Or you're just trained to think in terms of the group instead of the individual.

Game theory might work for the particular instance I gave, but that's not what I'm talking about. They don't analyze that situation and see a higher chance of survival from working together. It's a matter of loyalty. They are loyal to their superiors, and will do anything they ask without question. That is the goal.

It's not bad brainwashing, but it is brainwashing. Chanting, wearing uniforms, and so on are all ways of removing identity and installing conformity.

I agree that, overall, military personnel are good and ethical people serving the greater good. However, they are asked to suspend their ability to make their own ethical decisions (and they do this for everyone's sake, as I illustrated) which can allow them to do terrible things in the name of authority, if that authority is abused. (See Stanford Prison Experiment or Abu Ghraib.)

DarkNemesis wrote:Just because you believe in a religion certainly DOES NOT mean your more 'easily manipulated'.

It's not necessarily causal, but yes, it usually does.

DarkNemesis wrote:If so, then the same could be true with...say, atheists, agnostics or satanists (which, is really just an elevated from of atheism).

These groups don't usually assent to a higher authority -- with the possible exception of satanists -- which is the key ingredient we're talking about here. The question is whether religions can be dangerous, and the only way an idea can be dangerous is through what effects it has on the people who believe it. If a person is willing to suspend their own ethical process and yield to someone (or a perceived "something") with higher authority, that is potentially dangerous, which is my entire point.

Remember that I said loyalty is not a good or a bad thing. It has the potential to do great things, and terrible things. In the end, it's a good thing some people believe in a god, and it's a good thing some people don't. There are dangers inherent in either position. But the question was whether religion can be dangerous, and my answer is: Yes, it can.

Cokemonkey11 wrote:Maybe it's dangerous to have friends and join sports teams then

Maybe it is. You might get called names or catch a cleat to your face.

DarkNemesis wrote:

jamn455 wrote:How is satanism an elated form of atheism? Just because they believe in Satan means that they are elated from people who don't believe in God? That is wrong sir.

They are easily manipulated, if a christian commits a sin, what do they do? They go and tell the preacher their sin and ask for forgiveness, because they feel if they don't they will go to hell, meaning they are manipulated to believing that doing wrong makes you go to hell. If you believe in something that has never been proven to exist, just because you have been told by a preacher, or a book written a couple thousand years ago, you must be easily manipulated.

Look up Satanism. They basically believe they are a god. No, they do NOT worship satan, or drink goats blood, or cut up virgins and little babies.

Also, I said "basically", meaning close to.

That sir, are Catholics, not the entire christian faith, thus, you are wrong sir. I used to be an Adventist, I should know. And there is absolutely nothing about going to our preacher and asking for "forgiveness". Nothing. You clearly have no understanding of any christian faith, at least do research before belittling it.

How is not believing in God, and thinking you are a godlike figure close? Please explain how they are remotely close. If they believe in something religious then they are nothing like athiests.

Catholics are supposed to ask for forgiveness for each of their sin individually, whereas some other christian faiths just want you to ask for forgiveness once. Why is this? Its not to make you feel better, it is so you "look better in the eyes of God". Would you ask for forgiveness if you weren't afraid that you would be damned to hell? Why would you just ask for forgiveness if nothing would happen if you didn't?

People who faithfully believe in their religion are gullible and can be manipulated. If you believe that there is something higher than yourself, which you must obey to gain something(entrance to heaven), then you can be manipulated by them.

jamn455 wrote:

DarkNemesis wrote:

jamn455 wrote:How is satanism an elated form of atheism? Just because they believe in Satan means that they are elated from people who don't believe in God? That is wrong sir.

They are easily manipulated, if a christian commits a sin, what do they do? They go and tell the preacher their sin and ask for forgiveness, because they feel if they don't they will go to hell, meaning they are manipulated to believing that doing wrong makes you go to hell. If you believe in something that has never been proven to exist, just because you have been told by a preacher, or a book written a couple thousand years ago, you must be easily manipulated.

Look up Satanism. They basically believe they are a god. No, they do NOT worship satan, or drink goats blood, or cut up virgins and little babies.

Also, I said "basically", meaning close to.

That sir, are Catholics, not the entire christian faith, thus, you are wrong sir. I used to be an Adventist, I should know. And there is absolutely nothing about going to our preacher and asking for "forgiveness". Nothing. You clearly have no understanding of any christian faith, at least do research before belittling it.

How is not believing in God, and thinking you are a godlike figure close? Please explain how they are remotely close. If they believe in something religious then they are nothing like athiests.

Catholics are supposed to ask for forgiveness for each of their sin individually, whereas some other christian faiths just want you to ask for forgiveness once. Why is this? Its not to make you feel better, it is so you "look better in the eyes of God". Would you ask for forgiveness if you weren't afraid that you would be damned to hell? Why would you just ask for forgiveness if nothing would happen if you didn't?

People who faithfully believe in their religion are gullible and can be manipulated. If you believe that there is something higher than yourself, which you must obey to gain something(entrance to heaven), then you can be manipulated by them.

I personally, don't ask forgiveness becuase Im scared of going to hell, I do it becuse, I like everyone else, screw up, its taking responsibility for my actions. Just like if you lied to your dad or something.

Satanists don't necessarily believe themselves to be a 'god'. I was being figurative.

They do, however, believe one should live life for the glorification of ones self. In other words, this is it, so have all the fun you can imagine. This, of course, is a very dangerous and destructive theology, since the most pleasurible experiences are often at the expense of others.

Actually, satanists have claimed that their belief is, essentually, atheim taken to the next level. Overall, they are, in may opinion, two different religions (yes, I consider atheim a religon), though with some similar ideals. That was what I was getting at.

DarkNemesis wrote:(yes, I consider atheim a religon)

Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

It's possible he was getting at with the statement, "Atheism a religion," that it's a belief that can be just as zealous as religion. Though most atheists don't care about people believing in their religions, they just don't like being badgered on to believe what they believe, as well as people flip flopping on the moral beliefs of their religion when convenient. Such as Jane Doe who had her relations with the popular jock, got knocked up, "god forgive me," (god forgives all) then vote against abortion saying it's an unforgivable act and you will goto hell for it. Or you see people say "thou shall not judge," but yet they do nothing but talk others down who are different. The zealous part of atheism is wanting to mutilate those kind of people and take their book away from them.

Kibiyama wrote:Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Technically true, but it's come to function pretty damned similarly to one. And it also comes down to a group of people adamently asserting something they can't conclusively prove.

And this isn't counting the aethiests that have more or less established their own church, involving "unbaptisms" and related crap.

DarnYak

DarnYak wrote:a group of people adamently asserting something they can't conclusively prove.

True of gnostic atheists, a particular subset of atheists, but not true for all atheists.

Gnostic/strong atheists believe that there is no god, usually because of some logical paradox like Epicurus' argument.
Agnostic/weak atheists are what you'd characterize as "not sure", or waiting for evidence.

I happen to think you shouldn't accept something as truth without hard evidence, so I fall on the agnostic side of that fence.

jamn455 wrote:Don't get me wrong, I believe in some form of god, but I do not feel that each time I do something wrong I should have to admit my sin. I feel that you must just live your life the way you want, and what happens, just happens. You can not live in fear of being shunned by a figure that we do not know really exists.

I don't like your statement there, just because if you believe that a God exists in some form, it isn't a big jump to think He might have rules he wants you to follow, and punishment for if you don't.

Also, technically, Christian laws are not supposed to feel restrictive, but liberating because they guide us in our behavior and keep us from feeling lost amidst the world. But lots of Christians feel they are restrictive, myself included sometimes. In those moments you just have to humble yourself and remember all the times you do feel lost and then be thankful for God's presence in your life.

I just don't like ignorant Christians which answer questions with the phrase, because God wanted it to, or say that God made it that way.

jamn455 wrote:I just don't like ignorant Christians which answer questions with the phrase, because God wanted it to, or say that God made it that way.

I really hope you're not referring to me, or anyone else on this thread for that matter, because then you would be flat out lying.

I am not talking about you, or anyone else on the forums.

jamn455 wrote:I am not talking about you, or anyone else on the forums.

You forgot to color this in blue.

Whatever you say, I was speaking about strong Christians as a whole, but if you are that insecure you can take it that way.

I did not mean it to anyone on these forums, ANYONE, I just know many people who are like that and it bothers me that they think God is the reason for everything.