Rune Shell undispellable.

[randomd00d]

So I am wondering what the deal is with Rune Shell. It cannot be dispelled as far as I can tell.

At first I thought that it was just part of the balance for the hero. But it makes Rune Shell SO much better than any of his other skills.

Plus lets face it... there are not THAT many character with a natural dispel effect. The dispel effects also have a LONG cooldown in most cases. So I would expect that a char with dispel might be able to ... you know.. DISPEL stuff? But, this is not the case. God Knight laughs at any feeble attempts to reduce his uberness.

Now if God Knight was wimpy and easy to kill, maybe he would need the rune shell as undispellable. But this is hardly the case. And then, he can put the shell on everyone else to make THEM impossible to kill too.


Anyways, the point of this rant is not that Godknight or rune shell is overpowered. But that it is uncounterable by the very few heroes that have access to a dispel... something which is supposed to be able to counter stuff like this.

Maybe I am unique, but I dont find myself using dispel very often. It's great against longterm debuffs like Defilers curses or Oracle's irritating slowdown spell. But when I really want to dispel something, its either something that has paralyzed me, a really short duration effect, or something that is easily renewed.
So I dispel Mass Haste... she can simply recast it cheaply and easily and I can't do anything about it due to my long dispel cooldown.


Bottom line: Consider making rune shell dispellable, as dispels are not all that prevalent. Or maybe consider making it so that a dispel effect removes 50% of the rune shell's strength (if codeable).

[Laser_Wolf]

I'm pretty sure that the Dread Shaman's expunge is the only dispell that can get rid of the Rune Knight's rune shell.

[jamn455]

Hmm, you know that there are many things that you can do to kill him right? Do damage, stun him, why don't you just stop bitching about a move that has been talked about for so damn long and just get over it.

I guess that this is something that we should talk about, not the fact that the harpy does 1600+ damage at level 26 with her talent. Why don't you just shut up, get over it, it's not like you are getting spammed with burning glyph or something, it is just a 600 life shell around him.

[Perhaps]

Hmm, you know that there are many things that you can do to kill him right? Do damage, stun him, why don't you just stop bitching about a move that has been talked about for so damn long and just get over it.

    Rune Shell has a decently short cooldown, and can be applied to multiple teammates. The fact it will get placed on before combat, whereas when reaching the destination, you'll have it cooled down. Making it more like 1200 rather than 600 you say.

I guess that this is something that we should talk about, not the fact that the harpy does 1600+ damage at level 26 with her talent.

Harpy Swoop
Oh, what do you know...? It is being talked about. Maybe thinking in the terms of a sitcom I could consider your affinity for missing details, as a "quirky quality."

"Stop bitching," "just get over it," "just shut up," "get over it." Congratulations on passing Redundancy 101.

[jamn455]

It is not much of a problem, many heroes have nukes that deal 600 damage at the same time as he has a rune shell that shields for that much, it has been brought up numerous times as imbalanced and many people have cried nerf, but it has never happened for a reason, the fact that it is not as great as everything thinks.

Not to mention the fact that even if someone casts rune shell on themselves many times it doesn't stack to the full amount each time.

[Perhaps]

I don't use Rune Shell when it's up, I use it when it's gone to get the full effect. Also there really isn't as many 600+ damage nukes on the Creep and Undead side that can keep up with the cooldown as you may think.

[jamn455]

Well the creeps do have explunge which gets rid of it. Undead has many things such as oracle's nemesis feedback to quickly drain his mana pool as well as their riposte which does heavy damage to him even with such a low damage spell. That can cut his shell down in seconds.

[Emufarmers]

My impression is that if you have to come up with highly specific counters to an ability, it's probably too powerful. I don't think it makes sense to have Rune Shell be dispellable under the current dispel system, but the Vaporware dispel system would address this problem, and maybe address the general usefulness of dispels too.

[randomd00d]

Hey jamn, how come you gotta be so hostile?

I did a search on Rune Shell and got 25 hits (including this thread) over all subforums here. Most of them were conversational usage of the term, which I'll admit was surprising.
Hence, I fail to see how it has been discussed over and over again.


I appreciate the insightful replies of others here who seem to have understood the point being made. That is, having a single hero on one side of a conflict that can actually dispel the shell seems like an inadquate counter.

Furthermore, its not like every hero has a dispel; only a few heroes actually do... and the cooldown is LONG. Therefore, it doesn't seem unreasonable to make it dispellable. By the time other heroes can afford to get a dispel staff to counter a dispellable Shell, they would be paying quite a bit of cash to counter one ability from one character.

[Perhaps]

Dispel damaging it would seem reasonable. However, I'd like to see Rune shell only do a 60-80% damage absorbtion. Then from then on could be a talent that would increase the absorbtion.

[jamn455]

Hey jamn, how come you gotta be so hostile?

I did a search on Rune Shell and got 25 hits (including this thread) over all subforums here. Most of them were conversational usage of the term, which I'll admit was surprising.
Hence, I fail to see how it has been discussed over and over again.


I appreciate the insightful replies of others here who seem to have understood the point being made. That is, having a single hero on one side of a conflict that can actually dispel the shell seems like an inadquate counter.

Furthermore, its not like every hero has a dispel; only a few heroes actually do... and the cooldown is LONG. Therefore, it doesn't seem unreasonable to make it dispellable. By the time other heroes can afford to get a dispel staff to counter a dispellable Shell, they would be paying quite a bit of cash to counter one ability from one character.

Well since one hero has the spell, saying that one hero having the counter is not acceptable? Its not like the shaman is not useful, he is a quite good buffer and healer as well as a disabler and aoe hitter. I also think that his cleansing totem is one of the better disables in the game since it has a moderately low cooldown as well as the fact that it can take out buffs that start out in its range and also those behind it if they army pushes forward.

[BustroQuick]

I did a search on Rune Shell and got 25 hits (including this thread) over all subforums here. Most of them were conversational usage of the term, which I'll admit was surprising.
Hence, I fail to see how it has been discussed over and over again.

This isn't the first EotA forum. Back on ModForge there was a considerable amount of Rune Shell hate, I can't say much for the times before.

[randomd00d]

Ah, I did not realize this was not the only forum for eota. I can see the irritation at dredging up an "old" argument then.


I don't think the above logic quite fits though. What if an undead hero had "Flesh Rot" that did 10,000 damage over 30 seconds and was only dispellable by dread shaman.
Would anyone say Flesh Rot is acceptable because a single counter exists?
(In fairness though, there are many ways to "counter" the rune shell. It generally requires a pretty high opportunity cost though.)


Like I said, I am not saying that it is overpowered as an effect. Just that it should be counterable by the few heroes that have a dispel effect.

How many heroes in Creep and Undead actually have a dispel anyways? Maybe 2 on each side? So what would happen if this change was made?

If a hero with dispel (about 20% of them or less), encounters a rune shelled hero(occasionally happens), and has taken the dispel skill (pretty likely), then they can spend a long cooldown and a good chunk of mana to remove an effect that took a short cooldown and a good chunk of mana.

This doesn't seem like so much of a nerf to me. But at least it is a bone thrown to the non-shaman dispel heroes of the world.

[jamn455]

Grim Brigade heroes with dispel: Oracle(semi-dispel), Emberwraith.

United Creep heroes with dispel: Dryad, Shaman 2 of them, Bane(single target), Treant.

There ya go.

[mianmian]

Rune Shell is strong, however, its basicly a 100% defensive spell.

You also have to look at the big picture, RK is slow as fuck which is basicly why he has Rune Shell, or else he would be a sitting target, try it one game.

yes I realize that Rune SHell is basicly a needed skill for this hero, however I find only 1 point works great.

[Raxxor]

If a hero with dispel (about 20% of them or less), encounters a rune shelled hero(occasionally happens), and has taken the dispel skill (pretty likely), then they can spend a long cooldown and a good chunk of mana to remove an effect that took a short cooldown and a good chunk of mana.

Not sure,but aren't there disspelling itemst too?If it was able to disspell the shell with items too that would make RK ...bad.

[randomd00d]

That is technically true, but I would not consider it to be a viable counter for a few reasons.

1) It cost a lot of money. Spending 2000 gold or so for 1 item to counter one ability of one hero is not really cost effective.

2) It has a long cooldown and costs mana. RK can simply recast the shield.

1.1) Since you wont have that kind of disposable cash for quite some time, it is not even an option until late game.


It would be handy if you had no dispel AND you were also up against other heroes that had significant dispellable buffs. For example, against Blazing Priest summons/heal flame, RK's shell, and Arcane Archer's mass haste, then it might be worthwhile. At least you could irritate those heroes by making them recast their buffs. (ok, actually it probably wouldn't be all that great...)


Honestly, there are a lot of players that avoid items like the plague. They are many times just not cost effective compared to using the same cash for tower repairs and building defensive towers and generators.
(The exception being the slower active healing salve and clarity potions which are incredibly good through midgame)
Hence, if people won't shell out for a hero-improving item, it is unlikely they will fork over the cash for a dispel staff.

[Soulbourne]

What about the three charge dispel item at the item shop...

[Perhaps]

    I will say there is one counter to Rune Knight since Rune Knight has this sort of issue especially early game. Simply out kill him and overwhelm him generally works. This can be done by killing his glyphs, stunning him when he does grand rune which isn't that early game of a thing. However, the problem is and for some reason is the least commonly addressed, is giving Rune Shell to other teammates that are superior in "out killing" and need harassment or just simply stacking a lot of health via multiple people have rune shell.

    Along with passing on to other heroes are messed up combinations, like giving Divine Wizard the option to reserve Vengence, for a long period, as well as charge in with it a lot safer. Then there's Mystic Swashbuckler who's only weaknesses are no AoE and life, giving Swashbuckler has prooven to enable the Swashbuckler the ability to of course level much faster as well as at semi-early game chase someone all the way into a base and kill them, while safely exiting. Soulbinder with Rune Shell can easily be said as a pure pain in the ass, which you want to say "screw it" and leave him alone, however you can't. Say it is 600, then you pass it onto teammates, then it becomes, 1200, 1800, 2400, 3000; then tavern heroes as well, 3600, 4200, 4800.

[randomd00d]

What about the three charge dispel item at the item shop...

Good point. I dunno... what do you think? I can't really see everyone lining up to buy dispel scrolls to use against the rune shell personally. Especially when he can just recast it easily. Going back to my original point, at least it would be an OPTION. Probably not a great one, but an option nonetheless.

I should not have said the magic word 'counter' though. We all know that runeshell is counterable by simply doing damage one way or another. That is not the issue. Nor is it an 'overpowered' issue either.
The thought was that the un-dispellable nature doesn't make sense when there are relatively few dispel sources around.


Lemme frame this differently: How often do you usually dispel stuff? Do you ever buy dispel items and use them? Do you train the dispel skill if you are using a dispel-able hero? Have you found it useful?

For me, I dispel stuff with my troll shaman. This is ONLY because my purge is an offensive tool as well so occasionally I will dispel an ongoing heal on them and then get in a few shots while they are slowed.
Or, my cleaning totem will dispel some buffs. Once again, this is ONLY because I have trained totem for other uses, and the cleaning totem happens to gimme mana (when cast under ultimate effect). The totem also continuously gets rid of buffs/debuffs for its life cycle, unlike all other dispels which are one-shot.

So all in all, Ive found dispel to not be all that useful. There is really not a whole lot of stuff to dispel against the elves either. That led to the frustration that I am playing a dispel-skilled character... I am against a rune knight who has Shelled everyone. So the one whole time when a dispel might actually be useful, is the one time when it doesn't actually do anything.

[Strychnyne]

I didn't want to read through all the flame to see if it was said, but Bane's Charge ability dispells it too.

Jamn, he obviously hasn't been around for "ages" like you have, so he obviously didn't realize what an issue Yak has with his favourite skill. He was just asking. He even gave his own ideas instead of just bitching. You had no reason to come down on him like that. I don't know what your problem is.

[jamn455]

Me and yak have talked, and we have found a new counter to rune shell.


It is called damage, pure damage. Try it sometime.

[Soulbourne]

Boulder toss but tree sized mace...three hits before cd goes and he reapplies...it's a long battle that gets many people to ruin my day.

[Konnar]

I think it really depends - in skilled games sure the RK is beatable but in pubs, ie 80% of the time, he will be really unbearable for most people. Same goes with the infiltrator who can one shot people.

[Perhaps]

Haw hee haw hee haw... "Me and Yak..." He pretty much doesn't play the fucking thing. He may be the map maker, but he may as well be a novice towards it. You can watch all the porn you want, but bring it to the bedroom and your lack of true experience will shine. But whatever, balanced or not noone will be happy. Everyone is in a state of "the map is perfect except for what I see is wrong."

At this point, I just say "fuck it" leave it as is. And just start new and build from ground up. Yak won't lose as much as he thinks doing so, given the fact he has obtained experience and should know what how he would do it different, etc.