Incinerate

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Hammel · #1 Post by **Hammel** » August 13th, 2006, 2:10 pm

Nerf its damage slightly please, reasons mentioned before on modforge, don't want to go over it again.

-Ham

Ion · #2 Post by **Ion** » August 13th, 2006, 9:09 pm

I like Soul Binders. And candy!

AedharinSadai · #3 Post by **AedharinSadai** » August 14th, 2006, 4:33 am

was the dmg done to buildings nerfed allready?

Hammel · #4 Post by **Hammel** » August 14th, 2006, 9:16 am

A bit, Aed, a bit. But it still just kicks units and buildings.

-Ham

#5 Post by **Sparda963** » August 14th, 2006, 11:53 am

I think yak changed it to do like 60% dmg to buildings in the newer tests. I am not sure though, and its broken in test 6 so no way to test it i gues.

Ocean.dll · #6 Post by **Ocean.dll** » August 20th, 2006, 8:13 am

I vote no for unit damage nerf. I vote yes for building damage nerf. Or if you do nerf unit damage, only very slightly.

Hammel · #7 Post by **Hammel** » August 21st, 2006, 9:34 am

Ocean, let us just compare Holy Strike and Incinerate against units.

You need one HS to kill all units in a certain area, it is ranged and costs 230 mana. Still you cannot kill all units, most of the time all ranged or most melee, depending on the Situation (spawn towers, whether it is a huge push, mercs, etc.). Then you need to wait X seconds and can cast another HS, killing many other units, leaving some alive ones behind. Soon you are out of mana when you play like this a lot. Also you cannot tank any damage so you need to run back between the single HSs.

SB runs into the croud (doesnt matter how many), after 3 uses anything is dead, because when he runs to the ranged, he kills them and the melees following him also get owned. Maybe he needs 4 or 5 uses to kill the ones pushed furthest away, depending on damage and place. Then he uses his innate and got full mana again. Then he goes on to the next wave and does the same. Now he really just needs 3 uses and they are all down (usually), Innate, Full mana. Since anything goes down in 9-15 seconds, his units stay alive and he reaches the enemy base with tons of support. AM gets kicked with Inc when she wants to cast Wail, AC can be chased to because she cannot take the damage for long. Then you just wait until 70% of the units are dead (or untill there are enough corpses near a tower, maybe enemy corpses you killed there), hit Rend and continue spamming Inc. Soon the base is dead... with enough Intelligence you take at least one tower and thanks to Decoy and Mend, you usually don't die.

HS doesnt work on towers (and in 1.11 not on catapults), so it is way weaker compared to Incinerate. While Gale may kill many units and damage towers (like Inc), Inc is way more spammable and it's overall damage output is greater. Also the AC cannot tank any damage.

I dunno why I write this, noone will read it or take it serious, until someone in 1.11 says "Hey, it is really imba"... just that then it will take a long time again to get a new version with Inc nerfed, if there will be a new one at all.

-Ham

EDIT: This doesn't mention the great tank-killing abilities of Incinerate that Gale and HS don't have to such a degree imo.

mianmian · #8 Post by **mianmian** » August 21st, 2006, 11:02 am

No, I agree H4m, If anyone goes to test, rank 1-2 incin > rank 6 SS with level 6 decoy.

SS is total garbage compared to Incin.

Ocean.dll · #9 Post by **Ocean.dll** » August 21st, 2006, 11:16 am

You do have apoint on the quick cooldown. I'm just afraid of the Soul Binder becoming underpowered (he is my favorite character, after all) as Soul Strike atm is pretty weak unless you are using Gloom's evoc gloves. Also, Decoy is broken at the moment, although thats been fixed. DW can get a huge stockpile of mana though with decent regen without items or stat boosting. After 3 incins the units that were already weakened are dead, not the ones at full health unless its late game. That is ~180 mana if I recall correctly. At that point in the game, the DW can 1 shot just about any spawn with Holy Strike for 230 mana.

You can put this into a million scenarios. Like say you are fighting a tank. Lets say its Gravel. More than likely, the Soul Binder will be duking it out with Gravel, whereas the Divine Wizard in behind the front line where he is relatively safe. The Soul Binder however has to worry about keeping himself healthy, because while the SB has 2 times the tanking power of the DW, he's probably taking quite a bit more damage than the DW is. The SB is going to have to worry about either mending or decoying, which causes the SB to use roughly the exact same amount of mana as the DW, while the DW has more mana to put out.

Si I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, but I'm not agreeing either. I think the weakening should be slight at best. However, I am 100% behind you on the fact that its strong against buildings. However, Rend is rather costly on mana when you've been spamming Incinerate, and is pretty much a gambit on its effectiveness depending on how the corpses lay.

Hammel · #10 Post by **Hammel** » August 21st, 2006, 12:18 pm

I know how random Rend may be, but when you use it right next to a tower, it is most likely to go down.

The SB got a way higher mana pool than the DW because he can fuel up with the corpses of killed units, especially in early/mid game.

SB can also power up intelligence, depending on how much he kills. His early-game is way more difficult than the one of the DW because he needs to get to close range for farming, making him an easy target for AM and other ranged nukers (or disablers like Treant).

Against a tank, say Gravel, the SB will kill any spawnies in no time so he doesnt have to worry about them (usually) and Gravel alone doesn't deal as much damage as the SB, especially after some uses of Inc. Using Mend is alright when it grants you victory at the point you are using it (unless Treant comes around and entangles you or stuff). And since it disrupts movement, Gravel always loses time when running and dies in the end. Add in Nets, Dim Wands, Zephyr Totem, Flute of Winds or anything speeding him up or putting him into a better position increase his chance for victory.

-Ham

EDIT: SB's tanking abilities are more than twice as good as the ones of the DW because of more hp, way more armor and Mend, but I forgot to mention it in the post... still you can argue on how good the SB is exactly in tanking.

EDIT 2#: I also completely agree with you on SS... even in European pub-games, it doesnt work out great... and that means a lot.

mianmian · #11 Post by **mianmian** » August 21st, 2006, 12:59 pm

SB is the best tanking hero in Eota, hes the hardest hero to kill, hands down, Mend = easy 1k+ heal. SB is has infinite mana, his spells are so cheap, I've never run out of mana s SB, ever.

I really dont mind Rend. Decoy as far as I know isnt broken in test6? Am I right?

Incin needs a nerf, and SS needs a buff. When SS at level 6 cant take out more then1/3 the HP of the garg, when hes etheral, its a shitty ass nuke, considering he can just fly away.

Ocean.dll · #12 Post by **Ocean.dll** » August 22nd, 2006, 9:15 pm

Ok, so we pretty much agree at this point Ham. I feel silly now. And mian, I've run out of mana with him before. It is possible to incin faster than you can recover your mana. Granted thats usually not smart, but its possible.

Hammel · #13 Post by **Hammel** » August 23rd, 2006, 8:01 am

It mainly depends on your amount of intelligence whether you run out of mana, and whether you chase/get chased a lot. When you can consume loads of souls with a high int value, you usually don't run out of mana... at some point, one soul equals about 1 cast...

-Ham

Konnar · #14 Post by **Konnar** » August 28th, 2006, 6:03 am

I disagree, DW also has Energy drain which improves his time on the battlefield, as well as damage a bit too. If you compare DW and SB's spawn control ability, in total DW would be superior imo - simpler, you can hit+run it and risk less nukes, then ED etc etc

Hammel · #15 Post by **Hammel** » August 28th, 2006, 9:06 am

ED turns him into prey for the hero killers, I even get Tox down when he does it (although he dispels IB). Also ED can be stopped easily (nearly any Creep hero got a disable to stop channeling).

In general DW cannot heal so well (I know about Veng but Mend is way safer), and since the SB can take way more damage (and dishes out more for sure), SB is better overall (to me, and you wont make me believe the opposite)

I suppose many people prefer DW though because he seems more powerful and easier to play, for the reason Konnar stated. Also Vengeance is nice (and easier to use), apart from being usually safer as a ranged char (not better though, to me~~).

Btw: Dispell > ED, it is just too funny to see the enemy use buffs and use the buffs against them immediately (Tox once killed Mind Fog and "accidentally" hit Mana Surge which was just casted).

-Ham

Ocean.dll · #16 Post by **Ocean.dll** » August 30th, 2006, 7:37 pm

When we get to this point you have to wonder, is it ok for the SB to be slightly more powerful. I mean, its not like every pub game is like "OMG Spellbreaker hro is imba!!!111"

*SirNoobsalot has left the game*

The SB is a bit trickier than other heroes. I know that is not fair when dealing with a small group of 'skilled' players like us, but on a mass scale I think it evens out a bit.