Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

All right then, I think it’s time for a post to be posted in this section known for some absurd reason as ToXiK’s Twilight Tactics. First of all, the only reason I’m doing this right now is because writing about Dorothy Parker’s "One Perfect Rose", is well, useless. Did you know and/or care that the poem is a satire on most love poems written in the early 1900’s, or that the world limousine is the one word that gives the poem this meaning? Well similar to you, I couldn’t care less either.

Now, if I recall correctly, I think that person whom you so adorn (Yak), wanted me to start a discussion or something about an area in EotA and see what people thought and how it could be changed for the better. Well, how about we start off with talking about items. You know those things I told people not to buy because it was wasting their money, which could be used for more important purposes? Yes, how about we speak about those dastardly, annoying, and atrocious things.

So, if you don’t mind I think I am going to just go ahead and assume that you know the difference between consumables, permanent, and artifact items. If the chance happens that you do not, you can stop reading here and go flame another part of the forums, which I am almost positive, will bring joy and happiness to all. Now continuing on with the items, people seem to share a different viewpoint on them and believe it or not this is what I want this thread to be about. So without further useless typing about how I don’t like you or something similar, why don’t we share what we think about them?

Consumables – Probably the best item in the game for a variety of reasons. The first reason being that they are cheap and actually do something more than boost some of your stats. Need to channel that Blizzard but afraid you are going to get stunned? Use an Anti-magic potion. Is the Infiltrator continuously sneaking up and killing you? Buy some Dust of Appearance to see her, or a Potion of Invisibility to get away. Do you want to kill that obelisk in the woods but can’t be cheap like the Tactician? How about you go grab that Wretched Skull and create your own army?

Permanent – Can you remember when I told you not to buy these because you should be worrying about obelisks? Well guess what, I lied. I also lied when I said I wouldn’t waste typing about how I don’t like you. Permanent items are actually useful for one main reason, the full resell value. Naturally I just assumed a long time ago people would be to ignorant about helping the team that they would keep the items and just think they are amazing because they can not die. If you have the abundance of gold to afford these items, go for it. You can always sell these items later if you need the gold for something important, whether it is mercenaries, obelisks, or rebuilding bases

Artifact – I hate these for a plethora of reasons. They can’t be resold, they are extremely expensive, and finally their little ability rarely helps you in the long run. Here’s an example: For 5850 gold you can get a level 5 Orb of Fury, but for 5315 gold you can get an Orb of Battle (2190 gold) and a Knight’s Armor (3125 gold). So for 535 less gold you are getting two items which you can resell instead of one artifact, 60 more armor and 5 strength, but losing 15 damage and a 200-damage shockwave. Now it may just be my opinion, but this doesn’t seem that bad, considering if you are getting the Orb of Fury you are probably a hero killer and shouldn’t be worrying about the shockwave to be killing units anyways, leave that up to a support or an AoE hero.

Now what may your thoughts be?

Nothing really important to add I suppose, aside from my accordance to your views. I've always been a big fan of consumables. Artifacts are probably the biggest money pit one can come up with, which tends to be bad in close games.

I argue in favour of artifacts, but only for a select few. The thing about artifacts is, because there is only one, you don't have to face someone else who DOES have it. A 250 damage attack bonus, in theory, will help your hero killing abilities, especially if you don't rely on spells to do it. Giving a PK hero the ability to hold of a push is very useful. Now the support heroes can fulfill their other duty, sieging. And it's a very powerful shockwave. I'm basically arguing for Orb of Fury on the Swashbuckler. Other than that it's not worth at all, so you're game must not be serious.

The only other artifact would be the Talisman of the Sun on either the Tactician or the Sorrow Liege. Having the ability to show up anywhere on the map and destroy a tower for only a few grand is more than worth it. A tower costs more to rebuild.

Other than that, I'd do another paragraph specifically for Goblin items. They're part of the consumables yeah, but they've got a bit of a divider. At least use one of their items in the examples.

Yes I admit one exception to what I said would be the talisman of the sun. I like comboing it with heroes that have good troop buffs, mostly AA's haste, heart of the mountain, etc, given money is not a huge issue. It's also great for heroes that need all their stats for skills and primary attribute, and the +regen is good.

You said permanents have one main use: there full resell value, this is somewhat true, remember, they also have other uses: STr gives you HP and regen, INt gives you mana and regen, AGi boosts MS, AS, and Armor, minimal though. This also needs to be said. And don't forget they also boost your spells based on what attribute. I.E. Lunge+STr, Dash+AGi, Rend Soul+INt, things like that.

As far as Ultimates go, I largely agree with you, they are very expensive and almost useless in comparison to a noraml item. But, there are some that are a good deal.

Zephyr Totem: this thing is well worth it in my opinion, but not for every hero of course. The blink ability is like an extra spell! way cool.
Crystal Staff: very nice for those high INt heroes, I usually buy mainly for the extra mana.
Talisman of the Sun: an awsome all-arounder.
Flute of the Winds: nice for escaping and not too pricey, plus the extra AGi.

Hmm, you might wan't to add some further information about consums, like "its good to use bottle of ooze during pushes/seiges and skele summons plus termite jars," things kinda like that. I myself didn't realize their effectiveness until I started using them in seiges. but thats me.

hope this helped.
--AND

A_New_Dawn wrote:Hmm, you might wan't to add some further information about consums, like "its good to use bottle of ooze during pushes/seiges and skele summons plus termite jars," things kinda like that. I myself didn't realize their effectiveness until I started using them in seiges. but thats me.

Just to make this clear, I was hoping for this topic to be on what people thought about the different types of items, rather than some of their specific uses.

I found that on Gravel +75% attack speed and 76% lifesteal over the course of 20 seconds means you most likely have restored a substantial amount of health while negating a death. Plus the blink with tremor made it impossible for anything to escape...besides AA, didn't occur till after to grab a dispel wand. But I think I was in 50s by the time I got horn up, Got mana orb and armor up before totem.


I go consumables with High money makers, grab artis only on some heros, and if I have money when I die, then I get items other then that don't spend money for my own direct gain.

I found that on Gravel +75% attack speed and 76% lifesteal over the course of 20 seconds means you most likely have restored a substantial amount of health while negating a death. Plus the blink with tremor made it impossible for anything to escape...besides AA, didn't occur till after to grab a dispel wand. But I think I was in 50s by the time I got horn up, Got mana orb and armor up before totem.

Fun, but I think everyone's misunderstanding what Tox is saying here.

Speaking in terms of actually playing against competent EotA players, it becomes highly unlikely you are going to be able to farm enough cash on Gravel to get a Blink Totem +5 and Demon's Horn +5. I remember you got that in an IH or at least a majority pub game, but you could argue that just about any hero with those two items Level 5 will pwn.

The chance of getting those items fully levelled in any other game is ridiculous. If you were to, the game would have to last ages, and your opponents idiots. I think we were all item whoring that game as well so-

At any rate, generally speaking I am not a fan of artifacts. Until only recently I had been open to purchasing them, but now I cringe whenever I see an ally get them. In serious games, unless you are at the point where your cash inflow gets far beyond the capacity for your mercing, consumable, ob building, generator building, it's really not that good of a deal. I agree that occasionally, and moreso when playing ignorant people or people unwilling to take advantage of it, artifacts can be used effectively; but this is really limited to situations where the other team is negligant to your purchase of an artifact.

The fact you can't return the gold for an art on short notice makes them not very good. This becomes a huge problem in games where you purchase an artifact early on. Sure an Orb of Fury is great on a Swash and if you can get it and hold it it's nice, but you can do the same job with an Orb of Battle, a merc wave and a net. You know?

You said permanents have one main use: there full resell value, this is somewhat true, remember, they also have other uses: STr gives you HP and regen, INt gives you mana and regen, AGi boosts MS, AS, and Armor, minimal though. This also needs to be said. And don't forget they also boost your spells based on what attribute. I.E. Lunge+STr, Dash+AGi, Rend Soul+INt, things like that.

Tox was being figurative. All their other uses were implied: we all understand the bonuses regarading these permenant items, however Tox stresses the point that they are not "required" at all times and the fact you can resell them on very short notice means you get a huge bonus for Mercing, or quick hiring or counters or whatever have you.

Ion wrote:Tox was being figurative. All their other uses were implied: we all understand the bonuses regarading these permenant items, however Tox stresses the point that they are not "required" at all times and the fact you can resell them on very short notice means you get a huge bonus for Mercing, or quick hiring or counters or whatever have you.

Also, do not forget that you can not only sell items at shops, but also bases.

artifacts arent all bad. >.>

They're only bad when you buy them

Reaper you card you.

The main reason I start with items at the beginning (usually just "item" withouth the 's') is mainly a mana thing. Most heros in the game are going to burn through mana quick, especially if you are trying to use each ability to its full potential. The problem with buying mana pots is that they are A: considerably more expensive than your standard health pot, and B: considerably less effective, each mana pot giving you at most two-three more spells cast before your mana is back to nill.

Then your look at something like say... the agility/intelligence orb. If you are playing any ranged hero thats not a support "caster", or any melee hero that isnt ENTIRELY strength based, this orb at rank five is not only a considerable increase in attack speed, but its 500 mana on top of your standard mana pool. Playing sawshbuckler this is 5 more dashes before you have to stand around and be useless, 7-10 more mines laid, which can change the entire direction of a path. and not only is it good for having extra mana on hand, but you both regain mana at a quicker pace at fountains and bases and you have increased mana regen in the field. Each time you run to a base and regain full mana you are gaining the additional mana equivalent to buying and popping two mana pots. And this is excluding the additional regen. Not to mention the additional damage increasing/other spell ability increasing effects that 25 int or 25 agi will have.

Not to say dont buy pots, but never underestimate someone whos buying the right items at the right times.

and on the topic of artifacts the only ones I really find worth it in the long run are the Health Regen/Stats Talisman, and the one with blink. Blink is invaluable as both an escape tool and an offensive tool seeing how you can jump edges of paths at will. And the talismans health regen, stats and clicky just give it an all around usefulness in both pushing, offense (stats affecting spells/attack damage) and defense through continous increased health regen.

Thats a big enough block of text for now, commence the criticism!

I hate these for a plethora of reasons. They can’t be resold, they are extremely expensive, and finally their little ability rarely helps you in the long run. Here’s an example: For 5850 gold you can get a level 5 Orb of Fury, but for 5315 gold you can get an Orb of Battle (2190 gold) and a Knight’s Armor (3125 gold). So for 535 less gold you are getting two items which you can resell instead of one artifact, 60 more armor and 5 strength, but losing 15 damage and a 200-damage shockwave. Now it may just be my opinion, but this doesn’t seem that bad, considering if you are getting the Orb of Fury you are probably a hero killer and shouldn’t be worrying about the shockwave to be killing units anyways, leave that up to a support or an AoE hero.

[Luftwaffles] This got mildly offensive, was extremely long and had some unnecessary bits I trimmed. If you don't want your posts being frequently modded I suggest you read our forum rules and take a good long look at the last few PMs I've sent you.

1). In most games I play items play a very important role in the game. I am confused as to why you'd want to sell them (note: Dark, "too" is not a reasonable sentence header in the English language; you can't say "Too, I believe..." not only is that completely incorrect it sounds stupid. Try using words like "Also", "As well", "In addition to" instead).

2). Items are useful when untempered. I often buy them for a small boost in ability.

3). Gravel's Tremor is very broken and I like using it with blink. I don't agree that every item ability is useless, but since you said that Blink is one of the item abilities I found useful was okay, I can agree with that.

Probably the best item in the game for a variety of reasons. The first reason being that they are cheap and actually do something more than boost some of your stats.

I do not completely understand what you are saying here. I think permanent items are great and I always buy them.

How about you go grab that Wretched Skull and create your own army?

At first I thought about just buying an Attack Orb to counter a Wretched Skull, but then I realized it summons 8 troops in a circle around me and unless I'm a high level there's not much chance I'm going to kill it.

Permanent items are actually useful for one main reason, the full resell value.

I don't use all items but I use some. I like Warrior Rings, Executin Helm and Skill Orb and tend to purchase these for every hero. I also think Orb of Fury is really good.

[Luftwaffles] There is no reason to add these small "obviously you don't know", "clearly you haven't looked at" comments at the beginning of every post. That's a great way to piss people off. Considering what you have to say after those things as well, it's just a good idea not to put them there. Trying staying on topic and answering the questions, not purposely trying to make other people want to throttle you.

The value of items varies from hero to hero, for most support heroes and some pkers consumables will be your primary choice and will give you the greatest benefit. For people that want to build a tank character permanent items become increasingly more valuable. However unless you are rolling in gold and you really don't have anything else to do with it (i.e buying mercs, upgrading bases, defending obs) you shouldn't be investing 80% of your gold in permanent items or artifacts. Though as Tox pointed out you can at least reverse said mistake with permanent items since they retain full resale value.

Don't forget the Healing Salves and Clarity Potions. They have some insanely large regeneration rates over 45 seconds, I believe 1000 hp or 700 mana, and are cheaper than their instantaneous counterparts.

Also, some Artefacts are just too awesome/hilarious for certain heroes. Martyr with the Fury Orb and Ion Surge is just plain roflololol.

Also, some Artefacts are just too awesome/hilarious for certain heroes. Martyr with the Fury Orb and Ion Surge is just plain roflololol.

I actually tried to test this, once, but does it work?

Yeah it does I had a really good match vs. a Swash once a few versions back. The bonus damage on the Shockwave was great early on.

I find consumables to be extremely much more powerful on the whole than any other item. There have been many a game that I've one for my team without ever buying any kind of permanent item, and at most I never get more than 1.
Not to dis normal permanents, orb of skill and leather/knight's/sorcerer armors are all very good on certain heroes. but thats really the only ones that aren't eclipsed by the right use of consumable.
I will, however, dis the hell out of artifacts (bar Sun Talisman on some). All summoning artifacts aren't worth it even before compared to the consumable summons, then even more so after. I used to think the blink totem was good because, as a noob, I thought "OH YAY BLINK! no more creep lock deaths." then I found the displacement wand with its 3 blinks for 250gold, leaving its only benefit IAS, any there are better and cheaper ways to get it. Orb of Fury is just awful, OP already show that. If you are going full hk then get leather armor instead of knight's, the IAS is pwn.

I usually buy at least 1, maybe 2 permanent items that I will NEED to get where I'm trying to go or whatever and leave the rest up to consumables and the like. Knight's Armor gives a powerful bonus that can allow you to withstand creep waves and harassments from enemy heroes easily, and Orb of the Magi really helps early game by expanding your Mana stores, which can really help a ton. Like you said, though, it can be worth it to sell these permanents later on for the gold you need for something else.

And as for the Goblin consumables, I would be crazy not to go anywhere without at least 1 Cluster Rocket pack. These little beauties are wonderful for stopping big channeling spells, although its a waste of money to use them for damage. The new E.S.D (Experiment Safety Device) can be a lifesaver if a really big critter comes your way; It will only work on units, of course, but it offers you an effective counter to, say, a unit greatly enhanced by Plight's Aberration ability. And it can be used over and over again. I haven't fully tested it yet, but presumably this can target ALL units that are not a hero or invulnerable or a ward. So in theory this could be used to rapidly punch a hole in the Arcane Archer's Ice Wall, remove a stubborn Taunting Treant, easily destroy one of Plight's mega-creeps, or even wear down Sorrow Liege's Royal Guard a bit. Could be worth a look, for only 600 gold and 90 mana a shot. And you do get the oh-so-nice opportunity to watch your targets explode into bloody gibs after being hit by a lightning bolt.

Aren't nets a way better way to interrupt?

I seriously don't think I'd play a hero that didn't have an interrupt

Nets are a single target, whereas Rockets are an area of effect targeting. Useful if the battlefield is obscured from Smoke Cloud, Mind Fog or similar effects and you just can't pick out a hero rapidly but you know something is being channeled.

Personally I think that Cluster Rockets are the better option, not even sure if trapping nets *can* interrupt spells due to them being a root effect instead of a stun like Cluster Rockets is. But if Trapping Nets can interrupt spells, they would be a better option due to them having two charges as opposed to cluster rockets one. Not to mention the fact that nets can be used to good effect against flying heroes.

They interrupt