Useless spell thread

[DarnYak]

I love to see these on occation. What's everyone's "favorite" spells that are nearly or completely worthless and they just wish would get some loving. Or completely removed.

This list may be useful if I ever update again. Or for reference for what not to put in EotA2. Something like that.

DarnYak

[Dekar]

The poor Malicious Escape needs some love.

Aeros mana regen, too.

[randomd00d]

I think you have done a really excellent job with balanced, useful skills. Its a hard task and you have excelled. So dont feel bad about any comments that this thread may have.

Aero Mana Rush - Starts at 2:1 ratio and goes to 4:1. The only real problem is that the time to gain the mana increases too fast. You gain little benefit from lvl6 (600 mana in 50 sec for 150) vs lvl3 twice (600 mana in 52 sec for 180).
(lvl 1 = 10 mana per second gain. lvl6 = 12 mana per sec gain?!?)

Id say decrease the time increase by 2 seconds per level (from +8 to +6 per) and this will help a lot. (10mps at 1, and 15mps at 6). Maybe even decrease by 4.




Blaz Priest Backfire - Needs a significant buff, as nobody would pick this over the solid other 3 skills.

RuneKnight Syphon Glyph - It really sucks. Needs to be invulnerable or drain more mana, or something.

Arboreals Plant Trap thingee - It needs to have a longer ensnare period as time goes up. Its pretty hard to catch a hero in its snare, so shouldnt be imba.


Collosus Crumble - Needs an increasing AoE or something. It just doesnt seem to scale very well. Vs Creeps, you can just toss a big rock instead and heavily damage triple the AoE. Heroes are decent at dodging the crumble and it doesnt last long enough.


Dread Shaman Shared Pain - It requires the shaman to get beat up too much. He can heal and all, but its a rather odd ability for a ranged hero to have. Since purge is used to catch enemy heroes, PLEASE make Shared Pain immune to purge dispel!


Malicious Escape - 1 point in it rocks. 6 points really stinks. Decreased cooldown is nice, but its not needed THAT often.

[jamn455]

HA! Backfire and Siphon glyph suck apparently...

I destroyed heroes with backfire on candleburg, even with them dispelling it.

And Backfire and Siphon glyph used right are destructive.

[A_New_Dawn]

Ok, ok, I'll agree with you there randoom, Backfire does need a buff, but Siphon mana is pure amazing, can easily dish out 600-800dmg. I've got it as high as 1200, but whatever.

Shared Pain is crazy, especially against weak INt heroes, get some STr (you can spec him preatty much however you like cuz hes not deppendant on an attribute, STr spec owns badly), on him and hes almost impossilbe to kill.

Aeros mana spell does suck, granted.

Malicious escape could be better...your right there...

So could AoO...(Im kidding).

Crumble owns, at lvl 6 creeps take like 30% more dmg, crazy. I assume you hit crumble BEFORE rock? right?...anyway...

Roots are simply OP, do crazy dmg, haven't played her in a while but willing to bet they do aleast 600dmg.

Here are some others that need attention though....

Blastwave...one of his only AoE's and it sucks, sorry but its true...needs to be better...
Ignus Slavo wouldn't hurt to be higher, I know you can spam but still...
Scintillate..hmm, the Immol is great (like Bane's Acid Shealth) but the MR could be a little higher..
Execute is wimpy at lvl one but gets better...its fine I guess.
Pain could be a little higher...don't really care about the other dmgers cuz I really only use Pain, Execute, Scorch, and Shred anyway.

Abberation need to be nerfed, mana cost is way too high also...drains you in like 5min...retarded..
TS wouldn't hurt to be a little higher...
HF owns badly..anyway...

Metoers...hmm, they hit hard but man they're random....
Pet....make it so it can carry items!

Ice spinners mana thing, completly useless, nvr get it...

Shammys totems...fire ones...hit hard but the cooldown is frickin LONG!...

Lich...hmm, what happened to RS doing like 1000dmg? or more, lucky if it gets to 800 now...

Hmm, think thats it, post more if I can think of some...

[aegir ravenking]

Useless spells, useless spells, ya I with the majority here, you did a damn good job.

Sure there are situations where some don't work well(BP verus AoE dispel anyone?), but still so few I would never take.

Only one that pops up in my head is Aero's Maelstorm, and even I still admit it isn't that useless.

Maybe I could argue the Time Cleric's dipel could use a better effect, but I seem to remember you wanting to change around the dispel system already.

Ya, good job Mr. Yak.

/end useless post

[A_New_Dawn]

Or end useless posting...come one, man, the whole point is to balance out EotA, and it does need a little balancing...mainly on UD side...

[aegir ravenking]

You seemed to have missed the point with the Nephilim, lots of weak spells, but no cooldown(other then the ulitmates, which bugged, but were nerfed as a bit of a fix).

With high mana regen on scintillate, you could spam his spells all day long. You can still get lots of mana regen with life tap. Still, I don't get you thinking blastwave is weak, unless you just mean early, as it's AoE seems to grow later.

Metors? Yes, high damage, low cooldown, drawbacks were planned. And you want to fight an AA with a pet loaded up? Lol, enjoy it.
Although I think seeing the pair with guilding gloves would be hot.

AoE mana regen, exp denial, and a tiny heal thown in for a bit of a bonus. A one point wonder skill, but still good to max too if you going to do all the defending for your side.

Dread shaman, A: see the note about the Nephilim. B: His skills are about combat control, and they are more then fine. C: also a great one point skill. Have you ever seen what his cleansing totem can do to druids, zombies, or a summoning/buffing BP. D: both earth and sky are great to help hold off a push.

Incanation, well, he could use a boost, but returning rend soul to its old power level wouldn't help(I suppose you want the range back too?).

/End rant/off topic mode

[Soulbourne]

Yes...with ult shared pain is funny...combo high regen in there plus the fact I stack pure damage on him to make full use of his multi strike and I hit heros hard....

I noticed something today on AA....I used a pure support build basically and killed just about every hero I versed....you run next to them to have pet entangle...then you have both you and pet fill em full of arrows....now, you do have tp get pretty close which is bad if behind enemy lines, but I normally escape...normally.


And what are the triggers for pets spells...entangle seems to be within the attack range of shortest range hero....Starfall is sieging bases....but don;t know any others...theres faire fire....and that might be all...what triggers them?

[A_New_Dawn]

You seemed to have missed the point with the Nephilim, lots of weak spells, but no cooldown(other then the ulitmates, which bugged, but were nerfed as a bit of a fix).

With high mana regen on scintillate, you could spam his spells all day long. You can still get lots of mana regen with life tap. Still, I don't get you thinking blastwave is weak, unless you just mean early, as it's AoE seems to grow later.

Metors? Yes, high damage, low cooldown, drawbacks were planned. And you want to fight an AA with a pet loaded up? Lol, enjoy it.
Although I think seeing the pair with guilding gloves would be hot.

AoE mana regen, exp denial, and a tiny heal thown in for a bit of a bonus. A one point wonder skill, but still good to max too if you going to do all the defending for your side.

Dread shaman, A: see the note about the Nephilim. B: His skills are about combat control, and they are more then fine. C: also a great one point skill. Have you ever
seen what his cleansing totem can do to druids, zombies, or a summoning/buffing BP. D: both earth and sky are great to help hold off a push.


Incanation, well, he could use a boost, but returning rend soul to its old power level wouldn't help(I suppose you want the range back too?).

/End rant/off topic mode

Umm, yes I'll gladly take AA WITH a loaded pet (and enjoy it), can you imagine what treant would do to her? pure rape my friend. AA is not a hero killer, although her pet does have some spells that aid in hero killing, she herself is not, shes a troop support and seiging. Also Bane would rape her too, stun, CB, she lives through that you simply hit it again. She wouldn't stand a chance against a good tank.

I only mentioned fire totems, nothing more, you added the others...but anyway...

High mana regen on scin? yeah right, does around 300 at Lvl 6, thats not high...thats terrible....
Also, you can't spam all day long, Nep get drained in less than 5min, you need lots of mana and mana regen to "spam all day long" sorry, but your simply wrong there dude, go play him, Just did yesterday, was always spawning back cuz he drians so frickin fast. Even had +5 Dragon's and still had to spawn back.

In the future please read the whole post before adding irrelevent parts to it (i.e. you said cleaning totems, I said fire..notice the difference?) hope so.....

Thank You,

[aegir ravenking]

I said with high mana regen you could spam.

The totems, if you don't have a problem with the others, then why aren't they getting you though the down time with fire? If no heros opposing me I normally open with fire, then use his support to disable them till my creeps finish off the wave.

Not that we aren't talking late game if both pet and AA have heavy items, but AA is a good hero killer early and mid, even late verus lol hit point heros. But yes late game high strength heros with strength based spells do get nuts. I don't get your idea that the treant would destory her. entangle, ya, but treant can't get there to attack too, dispel haste(so you just don't caste it). But her metors should still do more damage, if you didn't skill them, then ya, you run. It normal and nessary.

Sorry work, can't proofread right now.

[Reaper]

New Dawn I like how you think Nephy needs like 5 skills buffed... Blastwave owns as it is, it scales nicely with level too. All the other skills you mentioned are very balanced if you ask me, and yes you can spam Ignus so why would you still want it to do more damage...?

None of his skills should be buffed. They should be slightly weaker than a normal hero's skills because of the huge selection, even if you have to cycle. His strength is in his versatility, not ridiculous (or even normal hero) skill damage.

As for the spells that need some lovin' :

Mana Rush - I guess since you could theoretically have it on all the time it probably doesn't need a buff
Chill Sacrifice - Never understood how it could possibly compete with the other skills
Malicious escape - maybe one point for blink-age
Ember's stun skill - Useful for an interrupt, but he has molten cage. It does stun creeps for a while at high level.
Time Cleric's dispell - Yeah it's totally worthless unless you need one, then only one point.

That's all that comes to mind

[A_New_Dawn]

All of his dmgers ARE weaker than other hero spells, even exicute, so a small buff to some of the wouldn't hurt...and its more like 3 not 5...

Blastwave
Sintillate
Ignus Slavo (Maybe)

[Reaper]

Blastwave...one of his only AoE's and it sucks, sorry but its true...needs to be better...
Ignus Slavo wouldn't hurt to be higher, I know you can spam but still...
Scintillate..hmm, the Immol is great (like Bane's Acid Shealth) but the MR could be a little higher..
Execute is wimpy at lvl one but gets better...its fine I guess.
Pain could be a little higher...don't really care about the other dmgers cuz I really only use Pain, Execute, Scorch, and Shred anyway.

Looks like 5 to me. Like I said though, he shouldn't have more damage. SHOULD NOT. He does whatever he needs to do, whenever: Heal, Aoe dmg, Mana regen, Stun, Damage, counter etc. Buffing any of these would make him very imba.

[Soulbourne]

I normally get one level of TC dispel....useful sometimes, but too long of a CD to use when the spell hits again....

[randomd00d]

DarnYak, this is a nice sign of good balance eh? When people can't agree on what skills are weak and not.


I still say that Crumble needs to get a bigger AoE as it levels up. And it needs a longer duration.

At level 6, sure it adds 30% more damage. Sounds great!

But I can just toss a level 6 rock instead and do at LEAST 350 damage to creeps in a much larger area of effect.

Think about it:
Skill 1: Makes a small AoE take 30% more dmg from then on.
Skill 2: Makes a huge AoE take 70% or more of their total HPs immediately...and generates lots of cash.

Which would YOU want to level up?

By the time the combo is useful, its not needed. At level40 with a few item/buffs, rock can do the 520 damage needed to wipe out full strength troops.



As for Crumbles use on a hero... its kinda hard to hit them with it due to shorter range and small AoE if they juke. When you do, its only 12 seconds of -19armor at lvl6.

Compare to Nephilums Black Globe. It is single target, but it costs like 34 mana, does -20 armor for 90(!) seconds, AND prevents use of a random item for 28 seconds. Wow!
And Neph in theory has weaker spells.



I guess Ill have to see some replays for this amazing pwning with Syphon Glyph. Id rather just buff up the RuneShield and RuneStun skills... they are easy to use and work well.


And finally, Ive noticed that the duration of some ultimates goes DOWN as it levels up. Like Corona for example. There was another skill too, that started out with a long duration and lower damage and wound up at higher damage, but at low duration. I would fix that such that duration at least stays the same. Corona does 33 for 50 seconds at lvl1, but goes up to 40something for 40 seconds at 2. (approximately). The damage stays the same but burns brighter for a shorter duration. Still, I dont see the damage increasing enough to justify the shorter duration? I am just comparing to geyser which gains duration and quite a bit of strength per leveling.

[A_New_Dawn]

Yeah, I have to agree with random, Crumble does need a bigger AoE, don't get me wrong, I think Crumble is a great spell, love hiting spawns with it then wiping them with a rock, the -Armor really increases dmg done, awsome. But with that said, a slight AoE boost wouldn't hurt either, (even though Im not too found of Gravel).

Eh, not sure what to think of his Ult, I personally almost nvr use it, cuz rock is just as good and doesn't have to long cooldown, Id say maybe change it or something, just seems kinda useless when you've got rock that pretty much does the same thing. Just my opinion.

Ok, OK, Neps dmgers are fine, sure. Just wish he could kill creeps faster, sigh, oh well. I usually get him dragon's heart, a great combo for him, get the extra dmg for farming and mana regen (which he desperately needs!). Hmm, since they're are about 5 million ways to spec him was curious what you guys bought him...

I mainly go for INt, also mana regen, some Str.

[Mills]

Yak, before I post a list, can I have some reassurance that you are still working on Warcraft III maps?

[Soulbourne]

So much discussion on Gravel...well, I know the next new hero I'm trying as creeps....

[randomd00d]

Not to derail, but yeah... I HATED Gravel at first. Big friggin target always got stuck. His damage sucks due to his abysmal attack speed, and move speed blows. His stuff is expensive and he is Out of Mana quickly.

But, once I figured out how to use him, it worked MUCH better. He is basically a spellcaster with lots of HPs. Get a Orb of Mage cuz you will need the regen. Take Rock and Earthquake only. Grab a tree branch and Last Hit. Your big slow attack is great for getting cash from last-hitting. Use rocks on every cooldown for cash and pushing. Then, load up the STR items after buffing the mage orb a bit (mid lvl around 25) Continue to spam Rock and take points in Earthquake (for later). Sure the STR rings take gold, but as your rock gets stronger, so does your cash-making ability cuz of it. By 25-30, you become a mighty hero killer due to earthquake. Cast EQ at max range behind the enemy hero if possible. It nerfs their speed bigtime (even more than befuddle), and you and buddies can easily catch and beat up a hero that is not careful. The AOE is ridiculously big at lvl6.

You are right tho about The Ultimate Rock thing. It ONLY works against targets with a big crosssection of area to get hit by lots of rocks... i.e A town center. It could use some SERIOUS buffing, as auto-attacks plus Rock tossing works better 95% of the time.

[aegir ravenking]

I believe the major problem with crumple late game is the same problem that most AoE buffs/debuffs have late. What is the point of casting a spell to let your creeps kill quicker if you can just throw a rock first and kill them yourself?

Same can be said for Incantation rend soul/remorseless, but it mainly shows up when fighting other heroes. BP throws down a level 6 FotD and/or kindle faith, just to watch Bane or Gravel come in and instant kill his buffed spawns with Acid or a pebble.

Ditto for Gravel, Dread shaman against a DW or a meteor storming AA.

It isn't game breaking because we are talking at most half of very long games (usually less than a quarter) and for the none one-shotting part buff/debuffs are very strong, unless dispelled of course [BP runs off to a corner and cries]). I know Yak has heard this story before, and has stated a desire to change it, but sadly, it seems he has a life, and can't stay attached to a computer for days at a time to fufill our wish of EotA becoming completely perfect.

As opposed to the 80-85% it has now dropped to with him adding the undead from maybe 95% it had been.

[A_New_Dawn]

You do have a point aegir, Ill admit that, mainly though its just to keep the spawns alive longer...I know, its kinda doomish, but whatever.....

(Soul) Yeah, Massing Str on grav is craziness, but I think bane is a much better tank (and hero overall) I mean hes got his acid sheath thing, does around 50dmg a sec Caustic breath easily does 600 with some STr, fear, charge, omg the range on charge is crazy, easily catch a fleeing AGi or INt hero then smack them for 600+, love it.


Hmm, kinda liked his dragon blood though, the extra AGi sure helped, charge is better for killin heroes though....anyway...

[DarnYak]

Yak, before I post a list, can I have some reassurance that you are still working on Warcraft III maps?

I had the map editor open for several hours yesterday, and the day before. Yes, actively using it.

I believe the major problem with crumple late game is the same problem that most AoE buffs/debuffs have late. What is the point of casting a spell to let your creeps kill quicker if you can just throw a rock first and kill them yourself?

This is certainly a consideration when i'm trying to put heroes together, and it makes things difficult. For crumble, the case can be made that it helps with hero killing along with spawn killing, but that varies between spells.

I think Crumble is a great spell, love hiting spawns with it then wiping them with a rock, the -Armor really increases dmg done

Crumble does not increase rockslide damage.

DarnYak

[Soulbourne]

Yes...I was using crumple level 2 to weaken heros defense while i beat them with my stick...and Heart of the mountain as a self-buff...

[aegir ravenking]

I've had the "pleasure" of going against both super strength Gravel and Bane (separately, same player just wish I could remember who). Gravel leveled much quicker but ya, late game Bane is just insane. Does his breath have a bigger AoE then Pebble Chuck? As versus Gravel at least some of my spawns didn't get one hit ko'ed.

It really sucked when even my Promoted spawns were one-shoted. Still Gravel was easier to survive, but harder to kill and much harder on the bases.


I know we lost against Uber-Bane, but I can't remember the outcome of the Uber-Gravel game.

Still seeing an echoed vengeance was worth the lose, Bane survived it, but fell a few seconds later.

At Yak:

Don't think I am putting you or the game down, but sadly I think the best thing would be to try to redo the whole AoE buffs/debuffs vs dispel vs AoE in one shot, as they remind me of the Mr. Burns doctor diagnose...The pros/cons of each keep the others in check so the game stays rather "healthy" right now, redo any individually and it would kill the patient. I just don't even want to think about the amount of work that would take.