Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

This is a post regarding the developers and players of EotA (which has been one of my favourite maps). I have recently developed a system that has a 100% chance of detecting MH, and it has so far already been put into a Vamparism Beast and being tested by IceFrog for dota and DivededX/Darox for Island Defense. Details about the system and how it works can be found here http://www.scumedit.net/forum/downloads ... file&id=40

Currently the map is v3.0, the majority of Bugs have been removed so this is the version that is ideal for public use. If Dan Yark has any questions, suggestions bug reports (or anyone else for that matter) feel free to post it at http://www.scumedit.net or send me an email at pandamine@gmail.com

Hi Panda

Well, I personally never noticed someone using maphack in EotA or even lost a game because of it.

As only noobs use maphack, they lack the multitasking and knowledge ( and general skill ) needed to abuse it in EotA, I think its a rather small problem.

Your timing is truely amazing, I just PMed Yak about this not more than one week ago.

Dekar wrote:Hi Panda

Well, I personally never noticed someone using maphack in EotA or even lost a game because of it.

As only noobs use maphack, they lack the multitasking and knowledge ( and general skill ) needed to abuse it in EotA, I think its a rather small problem.

It doesn't stop people from even clans using it. On the private server I play on, some highly respected Clan members used map hack (although making it a lot less obvious) and only got caught out (and consequently banned) from using it. You cant really say that noobs dont use it, there are a lot of advaned players that use it to get the upper edge because they cant face losing

What I am trying to say is you cannot say 100% that you have never lost a game because of MH because in some cases the MH'er does not make himself as obvious as you think. In pub games it is also a very different story.

There also is no harm in implementing the system, it wont change EotA in any way

The dota guys said it sucks and it often detects innocent players.

I am afraid you have me confused for someone else, IceFrog told me that someone did hack DotA and released an anti map hack version of it, it however wasen't me (the timing wasent great though as I told him about the system one week after it happened).

I had no part in hacking the system, and I wouldn't hack a map and release an anti-map hack system in it as It doesn't give me a good reputation and in my belief doing something like that is immoral (unless the map has been abondened).

For what I know the system that the other map uses is most likely completely different from mine as It was released before I released my first version

Honestly, the game isnt really popular enough to worry about homos using maphack on it.

pretty clever system

Weaklings compensate for their lack of skill with hacking no? Considering the amount of skill EotA requires, there would be a huge gap between an expert and hacker even with that advantage. The sheer size of the map would perplex them even with it completely revealed. It is a nice countermeasure I'm certain, but if it makes the map download signifigantly longer, I doubt it would be viable.

There is no loading time increase and it increases the map size by around 10-20 kb. Almost unnoticable

I'll probably be adding this into the next version. Thanks for both creating it and coming here to let us know about it.

I do sorta agree with jamn though, I don't know if eota even has a significant problem with it =P Still don't want to tolerate it though if there's something i can do about it.

DarnYak

All it does is show you where the heroes are, and even that doesnt really help a team unless all game you go around looking for heroes with no life to stalk on. Its not like it helps you do anything other than that.

Well, similar to DotA it can reveal things like gangs and help you in lane selection however its your choice if you want to add it into the map or not. This is the first version of AMHS ideal for pulic use as most of the bugs/issues have been fixed

I am just saying, in EotA a gang is usually not used to hunt down a hero, the gang would just push back with the hero running and destroy the base just making the map hacker more of a pussy and less of a threat.

And it sounds like I am backing the map hack on this point, but I would be happy if it was put it as it would eliminate the odds of playing with a noob that thinks hes god because he can pick infiltrator and see where all of the killable heroes are.

  Isn't there some sort of invalid graphic crash, that when you load it, the game crashes, and hide it in shaded areas noone will view. Well at least Starcraft has that method. ^_^ .v

FutatsuNoOmoi wrote: Isn't there some sort of invalid graphic crash, that when you load it, the game crashes, and hide it in shaded areas noone will view. Well at least Starcraft has that method. ^_^ .v

Follow the link to the AMHS in the first post and be prepared to *GASP*.

You have no idea how many times people actually criticised the system and said what problems it would have before even looking at it properly

People keep saying that this thing has "no bugs" or "very few bugs," I prefer to use the term "Zaro boogs." Just because testing hasn't revealed any bugs doesn't mean there aren't any. Also I wouldn't use the first version "ideal for public use." The best beta test is the first release. Besides, IIRC EotA is an extremely fragile map, why introduce something that could break it?

That's not to say I'm against the idea. I'm all for it. Map hackers should be removed from games. My point is just that being an early adopter isn't always the best choice.

This is already version 3, which is why I posted it because as it mentions in the changelog "it is the first version known to not have any bugs or issues after EXTENSIVE testing. Im not saying its perfect, but there are a lot of other things in wc3 that is likely to give more errors then this

PandaMine wrote:This is already version 3, which is why I posted it because as it mentions in the changelog "it is the first version known to not have any bugs or issues after EXTENSIVE testing. Im not saying its perfect, but there are a lot of other things in wc3 that is likely to give more errors then this

You didn't really expect not to encounter skepticism here, did you?

In the end, I worry about bugs mostly because Yak will have to fix them, and another layer of code just makes it even harder to track down where a problem is coming from. But that's his problem, and it's his prerogative if he's willing to deal with whatever issues may arise.

Emufarmers wrote:In the end, I worry about bugs mostly because Yak will have to fix them, and another layer of code just makes it even harder to track down where a problem is coming from. But that's his problem, and it's his prerogative if he's willing to deal with whatever issues may arise.

    Which brings to the question, why hasn't Yak recruited additional people other than himself to physically work on EotA: Twilight?

FutatsuNoOmoi wrote:Which brings to the question, why hasn't Yak recruited additional people other than himself to physically work on EotA: Twilight?

Beyond the fact that having multiple people working on a wc3 map can be difficult, there's also been a severe lack of capible and willing people to do it. I'd be open to letting other people jump in if i'm familar enough with them or their work to whatever they might best help with, weither it be triggering or just general gameplay concepts.

As for the AMHS system issues: people, unless you can find a real issue with it, stop talking about it and let me deal with it. All these hypothetical issues aren't helpful and to me it seems like you're attacking a guy who's put forth effort to help us improve gameplay in wc3 and taken the time to make people aware of it. While there may be real issues with his implimentation, so far some of these comments just feel unsubstanciated and ingrateful to me.

DarnYak

Unit crashing worked perfectly on Starcraft, don't believe me? Play the latest Snipers Bald and try to use maphack. -_-

So what if it's currently defective? But that's always to be expected of a new product, it will bloom in time!

I understand the problem with implementation, in fact really the only issue is the replay detect function which forces Wc3 to pause and its very notable in game play. However if you do this during cinematic phase, it actually hides the effect so hopefully it wont pose too much of a problem

I would be willing to help with EotA, because in my opinion its one of the most original and unique maps I have see, the spells are just uberness. I know JASS back to front, and know how to use JassNewGen with vJASS fully, including structs, libraries, methods, plymoerphisation/encapsulation etc

The only problem is I have my major exams for graduating from highschool coming up in a month, so I'm not going to have the time to help currently however after exams im going to have more then enough free time

PandaMine wrote:including structs, libraries, methods, plymoerphisation/encapsulation etc

"Plymoerphisation" is my new favorite word.

But yeah, I don't know shit about JASS, but I do know one thing that ought to be universal: hacky code interferes with hacky code. However, since Blizz's API is purportedly hacky to begin with, it seems that getting non-trivial things to work in JASS means that the planets have aligned and your hackiness and Blizz's hackiness have canceled each other out. So that means it's either going to work perfectly or blow EotA to bits. No middle ground.

Also, out of curiosity... you said "encapsulation"... I hear you can't compile JASS, but can you split it into multiple files? If so, that fixes the multiple people working on the project problem. Just work on it like you would any collaborative project.