[Discussion] Tactician/Flank

[Hammel]

Well, I've experienced Tactician to be game-deciding lately.

Whenever I play Tact, I go for the corner obs, take them out with 2 high level Flanks (guards inclusive), maybe send some units there with Order Attack and build an Ob. Suddenly we've got like +2 and enemy has to get out of used patterns to regain that ob (which they usually wont)... then I go around, kill unsafe Obs, go to bases and kill towers, spawn towers, sometimes the whole base from behind while the towers are alive...

My team just got to keep the house clean until I can do that... so take some heroes with powerful AoE spells, maybe combined with hero-killing and tanking (SB for tank, Infil or AA for hero killing).

This is... strong, makes Flank/Banner the most used and probably easiest/best skill combo for Tact.

Back in the old days, Flank wasnt that strong by itself, so many people (or at least I) didnt get it except for 1 level, rest into Great Bow. However, a high level Flank with Elite Archers was even more disastrous than today's Flank.

What I want you to discuss about is:

Nerf the new Flank?
Return to the old Flank?
Leave it the way it is?
Why?

I say leave it the way it is. It makes the Tactician way more popular, and it isnt uncounterable. Any AoE hero can easily kill the Skirmishers, and Dryad/Oracle or Wands of Shadowsight help keep track of the Tact. I think Dryad also kills Skirmishers right away with dispell... Scarab is also effective with Nightmare.
And when the Tact goes for the obs, you've still got sme time to react and get there and quickly kill the Skirmishers. Together with something for detection, the Tact also doesnt get away so easily, and can be forced to retreat (this is the perfect time to use a Wand of Shadowsight).
During all this the Tact doesnt gain levels, doesnt kill units for money and doesnt push, so she will be outleveled sooner or later, even easier to kill and has accomplished nothing.

Now... discuss under the aspects mentioned above.

PS: I wonder whether I should quote Something and his link to argumentation guidelines...

[Strychnyne]

I found that the original Flank was good. It really fit with the skill set. Right now Flank is ridiculous because as you run away from battle you get stronger, instead of, with the older version, getting weaker the longer your borrowed units are out of battle. Skirmishers are also JUST too high to dispell effectively. That's about all I can say right now.

[BLUEPOWERVAN]

The skill is absolutely ridiculous in its current format, it can't stay this way.

It's not just mountain obelisk domination.

Which, in my experience, is actually UNCOUNTERABLE. Few dispels even have enough range to dispel all the creeps, and as posted above, most dispels don't do enough damage to actually dispel the huntresses. AOE attacks are even more laughable (only ults really have to range to kill a circle of huntresses, and none of them could act fast enough
Coupled with an ooze bottle (or a skull, waiting for the inevitable teleport-dispel defense, and then they are without dispel vs skeletons...), I've found it impossible for heroes to stop me from taking out mountain obelisk. I AM TALKING ABOUT AN ALL IN-HOUSE MATCH, WITH PEOPLE USING DISPELS. 3 DIFFERENT HEROES RESPONDING AND GETTING SENT PACKING. Oozes cant be dispelled, and the tactician's natural strength equate to an easy victory vs most, 1on1. Furthermore, even if the dispel does wipe most of the existing troops, the obelisk is still going down. Due to the cooldown resetting while tact is flanking (stealthed), after the dispel, tact can almost immediately go invis again... and, now you are alone against the tactician and huntress swarm, without dispel. The dps in that situation is insane. Most heroes can't live 6 seconds with tact + full huntress focus fire. TO REITERATE, THIS IS ALL IN-HOUSE VS VERY EXPERIENCED PLAYERS BUYING DISPEL ITEMS.

Obelisks cannot be built, if the tacticians team is aware of it.

It's essentially impossible to ever build an obelisk. This is aside from how quickly and ably full obelisks are backdoored. Situation: an in-house game, with 2 of our heroes sitting behind the lines middle lane, camping with some left-over summonables, KNOWING that the tactician was going to try to stop us from building. Tactician still just walked in, killed peon and tower, in spite of us wasting our exp and time trying to defend... then just flanked back out. This happened repeatedly... in spite of dominating the hero killing, we could not convert our push advantages into obelisks... and the effort in trying to was crippling us (having to sit behind the lines defending towers that are still building).

DPS IS TOO HIGH PERIOD, NOT JUST AGAINST OBELISKS, BUT ANYTHING THAT CAN TAKE DAMAGE

Tact is now easily one of the, if not the, highest starting money farmers. Not only that, but her early game hero killing is also unmatched. Lvl 1-4 tactician vs lvl 1-4 anyone with lvl 1 or 2 flank, is someone driven out of the lane period. The creeps don't attack heroes attacking heroes, so nothing stops the tact from walking behind lines and wiping out the enemy.

The stealth counters listed are laughable. Every hero on the other team is buying dispel items to be able to respond to that mountain obelisk backdoor that might happen anytime from 15 minutes in to never, but somehow the tactician can't dispel wands of shadowsight.

Bottom line: Tactician was my first love in 1.10, and a great class on its own merits (read: the rest of her skills... net, order attack, promote, banner, all great skills). It didn't need its worst skill to become not only its best skill, but arguably THE SINGLE BEST SKILL IN THE GAME.

Suggestions: Any number of ways to reduce flank. #1 concern: dps, vs obelisks, vs heroes. From there, lower hp (or increase damage from magic/spells), so that dispels at least work. Random suggestions: Don't allow to move/attack after casting flank/before stealth sets in, lower move speed during flank to increase the exp loss from backdooring, longer cooldown (if much longer, longer duration as well) so that dispel hurts more, don't allow cooldown to reset while tactician is already flanking -- so that if people teleport and dispel her troops tactician will not instantly be able to start working on her second set, reduce unit collision size of hunts so that naturally bunched hunts (not arranged carefully with moves) will be able to be caught in a single dispel and it is harder to surround-kill heroes.

[Hammel]

the tactician's natural strength equate to an easy victory vs most, 1on1.[...] Most heroes can't live 6 seconds with tact + full huntress focus fire.

I wonder how you kill Emberwraith, Gravel, Bane or Scarab in 6 seconds...
And for dispelling, when the Staff isnt enough (EDIT: AoE wise, the damage kills 2 hunts), you can also get WoNs (EDIT:2 charges needed), or hero dispels (EDIT:level 2 should be enough to kill, level 6 best due to CD).
And casters CAN wipe them with AoE spells. Ice Spire kills hunts easily if not killed (but it had been killed with the old Flank, too), Harpy kills the Tact before she is killed herself, she can even maneuver out of the range of many hunts, not to mention Blind. Dryad can place Tangleweeds already before the Tact comes, killing many hunts before they do anything, her dispel and Gale do the rest. AM takes the Tact out with IB, and I think she can kill most of the hunts with her Ult. Fenny (if used) can use Howl before he kills the Tact. Fugly tangles and dispels, Bane stuns and uses Caustic Breath, Scarab uses Nightmare/Smite, Grafel uses Rockslide (use a Dimensional Wand to get into position quickly after porting). The only useless hero is the Dread Shaman (Cleansing totem/fire nova is killed too quickly to be useful against the hunts).

Obelisks cannot be built, if the tacticians team is aware of it.

It's essentially impossible to ever build an obelisk. This is aside from how quickly and ably full obelisks are backdoored. Situation: an in-house game, with 2 of our heroes sitting behind the lines middle lane, camping with some left-over summonables, KNOWING that the tactician was going to try to stop us from building. Tactician still just walked in, killed peon and tower, in spite of us wasting our exp and time trying to defend... then just flanked back out.

So Infil blitzing in and killing it with Sabotage is better? Or Harpy coming of a cliff, using Chaos Rift? Plight kicking the worker, and killing the tower? Btw, when you let the Tact get close enough... Serpent Wards and owls show you when she is coming, then you can stop her before she is there...

in spite of dominating the hero killing, we could not convert our push advantages into obelisks... and the effort in trying to was crippling us (having to sit behind the lines defending towers that are still building).

Then use the push advantage, group up, rape one base after another, then even the ob advantage wont help the enemy. When you were so dominating, erase the corner base. And go for their corner obs, too.

Tact is now easily one of the, if not the, highest starting money farmers. Not only that, but her early game hero killing is also unmatched. Lvl 1-4 tactician vs lvl 1-4 anyone with lvl 1 or 2 flank, is someone driven out of the lane period. The creeps don't attack heroes attacking heroes, so nothing stops the tact from walking behind lines and wiping out the enemy.

Yes, that is strong... but 3 footmen would deal more damage, so the old Flank isnt any better in that terms (although it would take the footmen out of the battle, yes, but later on they would be back, and since noone attacks them, not much has changed)

The stealth counters listed are laughable. Every hero on the other team is buying dispel items to be able to respond to that mountain obelisk backdoor that might happen anytime from 15 minutes in to never, but somehow the tactician can't dispel wands of shadowsight.

So you want stealth counter easily and for free, if possible? Then any stealth hero (that is Tact and Infil) could dump his move. Of course she can dispel WoS... but that takes time she cannot spend on backdooring, right? And Serpent Wards/Owls also detect her... and she cannot kill them that easily I think... you could put them up again faster than they went down.
Random thought: Add a generator with anti hero attack... and maybe a cannon tower. Cannon towers > hunts, generators > Tact

It didn't need its worst skill to become not only its best skill, but arguably THE SINGLE BEST SKILL IN THE GAME.

Flank wasnt the worst skill. With Elite Archers it was worse than it is today, just took some more skill to use (which many people didnt invest).

Suggestions: Any number of ways to reduce flank. #1 concern: dps, vs obelisks, vs heroes. From there, lower hp (or increase damage from magic/spells), so that dispels at least work.

350 hps are the MINIMUM when it comes to actually fighting real towers, less=useless, other than for killing obelisks. Damage is also low enough, any spawn in the game deals more, and with Battleplans, anyone can focus it, not just Tact/Rue with Order Attack. And tanks wont even feel the damage (for a time), while many casters just use an AoE skill to whipe most of the Hunts, mainly leaving the Tact and normal units behind, but they'd also be there without Flank.

lower move speed during flank to increase the exp loss from backdooring, longer cooldown (if much longer, longer duration as well) so that dispel hurts more

If movement speed was lowered with Flank, it couldnt be used to escape anymore = bad. Duration and cooldown are nearly equal atm, dunno, can be longer... wont give you enough time to repair the obelisk, so the basic "problem" remains.

don't allow cooldown to reset while tactician is already flanking -- so that if people teleport and dispel her troops tactician will not instantly be able to start working on her second set

I dont think cooldowns of single spells can be affected, just total cooldowns on heroes... only exception is working with passives.

,educe unit collision size of hunts so that naturally bunched hunts (not arranged carefully with moves) will be able to be caught in a single dispel and it is harder to surround-kill heroes.

It is nearly impossible to "carefully arrange" Hunts, because they change their positions themselves when the Tact moves, and when the Tact doesnt move, she cannot chase/ w/e... and when she sits in front of an obelisk, she's got all the time in the world to do it, not solving the problem. Unless there is Invis detection around... but Invis counter were useless, you said, so that doent count.

P.S.: I just looked up the dispel damages... Wands of Negation, 200 dmg, no cd, come in bundles of 3 -->2 are enough. Staff of Negation, 800 dmg, larger AoE, GG Hunts, so you cannot tell me dispels dont work -.-


In total that reminds of the general backdooring discussion... it is a hell to counter, but possible, and some people are too used to their patterns and too lazy to actually counter it. For example, a tank with an AoE spells, say Scarab, teleports to the obelisk, smites the Tact, sleeps a bunch of hunts, and when the Tact retreats, the AM comes from the nearby lane she was on, detects the invisble Tact and finishes her. Or Harpy comes around (she can even teleport to the top/bottom base and fly there)... Scarab wont be killed due to armor/damage reduction, and the Tact wont escape the Harpy as soon as she is detected. And if she does, go play against computers -.- (I say nets, I say webs, it is even possible to sleep her with most of the hunts).


I think we should also think about the effectivity of other heroes backdooring... like Harpy, Plight, Infil, etc.

[Demongod86]

YOu're having trouble with 350 HP hunts? Dispel+AoE=gg, no?

[Mills]

Yak, this is why some people don't post.

BPV, good job calling the outcome of the thread last night.

Thread, please continue to plunge into meaningless discussion.

[Hammel]

I just dont want Yak to swing the nerf hammer too hard...

In earlier versions, Fenny's lunge was quite strong... it got nerfed, today people say "if you wanna be useless and feed, play fenny"... and since I dont want that to happen to Tact, I try to counter any of his arguments, to give Yak a basis for a decision.

Yak also has the problem with UD, many people say they are strong/weak/not balanced, but apart from Gargoyle, we dont talk about them here...

But I guess this is just another meaningless post.... ~~

(Ohh, and when some people dont post because someone might go through it and tell what he thinks of different parts... ~~)

[jamn455]

I think the main problem is you can flank, attack the base lose your skirmishers then just reflank in no time at all and get more skirmishers. The cooldown should be massively increased so the tact cant just run in and kill a tower and just flank invis and be gone.

[Demongod86]

So everyone should just stick in lanes, mass spawn towers, and 5-man aoe push?

Hmmm, sounds an awful lot like dota, doncha think?

Frankly, I think having more options to make the game more dynamic is better, rather than everyone lining up to take on enemy creeps. I say if you can backdoor a tower, all the more power to you.

[aegir ravenking]

Just a quick comment here...

Obelisks cannot be built, if the tacticians team is aware of it.

It's essentially impossible to ever build an obelisk. This is aside from how quickly and ably full obelisks are backdoored. Situation: an in-house game, with 2 of our heroes sitting behind the lines middle lane, camping with some left-over summonables, KNOWING that the tactician was going to try to stop us from building. Tactician still just walked in, killed peon and tower, in spite of us wasting our exp and time trying to defend... then just flanked back out.

So Infil blitzing in and killing it with Sabotage is better? Or Harpy coming of a cliff, using Chaos Rift? Plight kicking the worker, and killing the tower? Btw, when you let the Tact get close enough... Serpent Wards and owls show you when she is coming, then you can stop her before she is there...

Obelisk towers are magic immune, so Sabotage isn't much of a threat, or anyother spell for that matter. Not that you need spells(or spawns, or summons) for destoying buildings under construction, you just need to be there to party with the builder...alone.

[Hammel]

As long as the ob tower isnt finished, you can cast all the magic you want.

And a worker can be rebough, and after 15 seconds building is back on track.

Frankly, I think having more options to make the game more dynamic is better, rather than everyone lining up to take on enemy creeps. I say if you can backdoor a tower, all the more power to you.

True, more options and more dynamic gameplay are a good thing. But sometimes a move is just way too powerful, and that is what people criticize about Flank atm.

Wouldnt it help if the duration was longer, but also the time between the huntresses showing up? So that it takes like twice as much time to get all hunts (current duration of Flank ~~), but you also have a lot more time to stay invisible?
To make Flank not completely useless, the huntresses need a selfheal while invisible or they need to be invulnerable, because when you need to wait for full power, chances are they get damaged and wont bring full efficiency... (especially since no new ones spawn when one gets owned by a corpse trap)

[aegir ravenking]

Don't mind me as I:
A) Missed the word 'build' till I first hit reply.
B) Didn't remember that magic works until the obelisk is finished even after I noticed he mentioned the peon.
C) Can't remember right now if Yak made it so they have armor before they finished getting built.
D) Also can't remember how much you get back with a canceled obelisk(if all then this stratagy is just annoying other then for the mini towers as I know you don't get anything back if you cancel them).

[Hammel]

Btw, Tox just proved how dispel owns a whole wave of Hunts.

[Demongod86]

As long as the ob tower isnt finished, you can cast all the magic you want.

And a worker can be rebough, and after 15 seconds building is back on track.

Frankly, I think having more options to make the game more dynamic is better, rather than everyone lining up to take on enemy creeps. I say if you can backdoor a tower, all the more power to you.

True, more options and more dynamic gameplay are a good thing. But sometimes a move is just way too powerful, and that is what people criticize about Flank atm.

Frankly, if it's not powerful enough to actually change the way the game is played, it's worthless. Also, remember that there are 3 big melees and 2 elite archer units guarding each obelisk, so if those get trashed by a tactician with 350 HP hunts without you being able to respond, well, shame on you.

Also, if those obelisks are so damn important, why not just build a defensive tower there so it'll aoe the hunts? Oh, right, cuz you're cheap and would rather lose the tower a few times.

[Dekar]

Or you just build a command tower for 500 gold and send 2 waves for defense to your obs and 3 waves to the enemys ob to take them down or at least make the life harder for the enemy team.

[Hammel]

Also, if those obelisks are so damn important, why not just build a defensive tower there so it'll aoe the hunts? Oh, right, cuz you're cheap and would rather lose the tower a few times.

The units arent a problem, and you dont always have the right hero to respond (because they are currently in the middle of a fight and cant hardly tele). Towers arent much of a problem either, only annoying or a matter of time, but they wont stop you...

While I dont dislike your attempt to defend Flank, the ideas you use for it are shit.

And you comment with the power to influence the flow of the game: some spells have more indirect effects (healing spells, whether castable on self or not, idiot) because they allow others to stay and change something, or direct, like Wail whiping a spawnwave. But sometimes the impact of a skill is too big, or the big impact is achievable too easily and hardly counterable, so that it is too strong, or called imba, and then we need to weaken it, so that the impact isnt too strong anymore (or archieved with more problems).


And PLEASE, before you comment on balance again, LEARN TO PLAY EOTA. Then you would at least write some useful answers like Dek.

And when you dislike the way it is played, go find another game and dont annoy us anymore...

[Demongod86]

Towers won't stop you? Towers that deal enough aoe damage to stop multiple waves of creeps with 2-5x more HP?

Hmmm, sounds like news to me.

What I hear is "Flank doesn't allow us to play the way we want to play with 5-man pushing and tower-spamming! Nerf!"

[Hammel]

How comes a Blazing Priest can rape a base before level 10 with 1 good push? When the towers solo so many waves because they are so strong? Fuck off and learn to play...

And btw, sure, Flank doesnt allow people to play the way they are used to. But in doing so, it is too strong, so Yak will nerf it's abilities in doing so.

[Tehw00tz]

Demon, I'm sure Yak appreciates the ideas and thoughts your giving towards the map.


But you need to stop fucking crying, go make your own EotA variant if you feel so strongly about what you want.

[Demongod86]

How comes a Blazing Priest can rape a base before level 10 with 1 good push? When the towers solo so many waves because they are so strong? Fuck off and learn to play...

And btw, sure, Flank doesnt allow people to play the way they are used to. But in doing so, it is too strong, so Yak will nerf it's abilities in doing so.

Either flank forces people to play differently than they want to, or by trying to backdoor, the tactician puts her team at a disadvantage by not being there to support her team more than she is helping by trying to knock down a tower.

Flank is fine. 350 HP in eota is a joke. Spend 100 gold to TP back to the tower with an aoe hero, cast a dispel, cast an aoe, and we're done. No need to moan and bitch simply because tactician won't allow you to stay in lanes as you wish.

[DarnYak]

My first round of nerfs for flank are in ([[Next Version]], yay wiki tags), and while I normaly dont explain every change, I felt this one might be slightly unclear. Specificly, focusing on these two

Flank Skirmishers summoned reduced by 2 across all levels
Skirmisher damage type changed to Hero from Normal

Normal damage deals 75% to heroes and 70% to fortified armor, where hero does 100% to heroes and 50% to fortified. There is now 1 skirmisher at level 1, and 11 at 6. Now, their relative damage, in 1.11 skirmisher power, is:

Level 1, vs Heroes: 3 => 1.33
Level 6, vs Heroes: 13 => 14.63
Level 1, vs Buildings: 3 => 0.71
Level 6, vs Buildings: 13 => 7.86

These are not the only nerfs, but the primary ones concerning raw power who's effects may not be so obvious. Nor are these nessarily final.

DarnYak

[Tehw00tz]

To me the changes seem a little overkill.
But then again I've barely played against a Tactician in 1.11, it's all about unfundead.

[mianmian]

seems kinda overkill to me too.

[DarnYak]

To me the changes seem a little overkill.

I'm aware of that possibility, and will be watching it for the next tests. Bumping it back up in power is easy enough, but this is my best guess for bringing it where it should be.

DarnYak

[Hammel]

Btw, you got amounts of Skirmishers wrong... it is 1/11, when you reduce the amount by 2 over all levels...

And I dont know why you think the nerf is too strong... they deal about as much damage to heroes as before (later on), and we wanted a nerf against buildings... with a damage build, the Tact can easily make up for that...