Tavern Heroes

[FutatsuNoOmoi]

It would be nice if Tavern Heros were decreased in cost, and effectivness, and also more tavern heros added. ^_^

Tehw00tz: Took all the annoying colors out of your post.

[Something]

What is wrong with colors? Is it hard to read or something? I find it very pleasent, and soothing.









Edited by Tehw00tz: I realize you both have nothing better to do than to troll obscure EotA forums at 6 am, but stop.

Edited by Something: Fixed a spelling error by w00tz. Can't have our little mod looking stupid now can we? Also, try not to quote "imcompetent". That's just too obvious, of you, and that it was a typo.

[Kibiyama]

Eh, tavern heroes aren't really meant to be used frivolously. Don't you think scaling them down might encourage that?

[mianmian]

Ok, would you mind giving me some reasoning behind your suggestion?

Because Tavern heroes, the cost has been reduced, a lot, they used to be 2400g and 20 crystal, now there 1200g, thats it, and there not meant to be weak, there meant to be on par with normal heroes (except Blackguard, he just blows)

[Something]

Ok, would you mind giving me some reasoning behind your suggestion?

Because Tavern heroes, the cost has been reduced, a lot, they used to be 2400g and 20 crystal, now there 1200g, thats it, and there not meant to be weak,
there meant to be on par with normal heroes (except Blackguard, he just blows)

Uses don't seem to matter much to you, so why do you think you can comment on it?!

There isn't meant to be "they're" (or, they are). Try to master purpose!

Also, considering how hard it can be to kill a hero at times, especially ones with the right
support, tavern heros can build up on you, and given that some suck, and some are good, the
first to buy the best one (that is, the one that has the highest survivability rate), is the one in the better position. I can see where he's coming from. I feel forced to buy Tavern Heros when the opposing players do, otherwise, if you don't kill them, they get strong, and build up in numbers, and overwhelm you easily. Although, given that the AI is limited, I'm sure I could come up with some cheesy ways to kill them.. But, that to me feels like cheating.

Removed colors. -Emu

[mianmian]

Uses don't seem to matter much to you, so why do you think you can comment on it?!

Your a bloody idiot, you should have some reason for suggesting something in the BALANCE and SUGGESTION forums, this isnt the place to just spout random shit.

Also, you do know theres a 15? minute time between when you can buy a merc hero and when you can buy a second?

Thats 15minutes where you only have to kill that hero once.

Now onto the some are better then others, or as you later say, some have more survivability then other, this is true, ranged heroes have more then melee, cept maybe Earth Panda. Marks has the most since he can heal, then Probly Storm/Earth Pandas, who are only a tiny bit behind Marks, then Fire who does a lot more damage at higher levels, then Blackguard who blows. Theres not a huge amount of difference between the 3 strongest ones.

Finally

There isn't meant to be "they're" (or, they are). Try to master purpose!

For christ sake, you knew what I meant, I dont feel like putting a fucking ' and a Y, shut the fuck up, its a goddamn forum not a thesis paper, now stop nit picking and acting like a douche and give some reason to wtf your saying.

Also, English isn't my 1st language, so Q fucking Q.

[Something]

Nothing I said was random. I'm not going to explain the obvious.. It usually doesn't help to. I guess I just don't "fucking feel" like it anymore.

Anyhow.. You have to kill Tavern Heros twice, not once. With the right hero combination, or a little luck.. Their (or your) Tavern Hero(s) might not even die once. This can lead to a stacking of Tavern Heros through-out the course of the game.

Do you really want to feel like you need luck or proper hero combinations to make the best use of Tavern Heros? Or possibly chance it, and lose if you can't remove their heros?

Removed colors. -Emu

[mianmian]

If you cant kill a AI controlled hero, twice in 15minutes you have problems, the only hero that is hard to kill is marks, so for him I agree, it sorta matches your statement, however if they get a 2nd one, just pwn it.

Nothing I said was random.

Then why cant you support it?

I'm not going to explain the obvious

Whats so obvious about your statement? You want Merc Heroes to no longer be merc Heroes you want them to just be strong spawns, thus defeating there whole purpose.

Ok, this still dosent explain or give reason behind what your saying, so in essence you are just saying random shit to Troll, so start putting effort into what your trying to say or just say nothing at all kkthx

Ya it was my bad the Killing it once thing, but still if you can kill it once, you can kill it twice.

[Something]

Why is it I get tagged with saying everything? Is it so bad I can see a different point of view?

For starters, excuse me for giving my opinion. I should NOT have to continuely argue my point. You should be able to take on different perspectives. Again, look at who originally posted, and said things need to be changed, not at the people who say "I can see where he is coming from". I never said if I agreed or disagreed, I'm just saying why I think he might be saying such. I am sick and tired of being branded as the original poster when I'm not.

Aside from all of that, I think that I said more than enough, and you will have to take it as it is, because all I will do is repeat myself in different words. If that is not enough for you, then I DON'T CARE. I AM TIRED OF DEALING WITH THE SIXTH CENTURY.

[Tehw00tz]

That's it, this is my final post here.

Why is it never true?

[mianmian]

Seriously.

And, Something, usually, when you agree with someone you have a reason?

But thats ok, Cya around ~~

[Something]

That's it, this is my final post here.

Why is it never true?

Thought first, then post. That was relating to the specific thread. I had argued my point on it, and given my examples plenty of times, and was done doing it on that subject.

Just like for this thread. I gave my reasons. I'll try again though, since I'm "fucking feeling" like it at the moment.


Tavern Heros are a bit too strong perhaps. They need more purpose, less power. The system needs changing. Futatsu and I have discussed it for quite a while, and that's what it's coming down to more and more.

If you can't find a problem with Tavern Heros getting stacked up because you can't get them killed, then something is seriously wrong. It's not always easy to kill them. They can run away very well.. Although sometimes they can be foolish, but not always. It can be harder to kill them when they have support by other heros. Did you miss that statement? X hero is low on health, so he runs, Y hero beats the shit out of you while you attempt to finish off X hero. You die. X hero lives. Basic concept, things don't always work out the way you want them to. That doesn't even include all the reasons why X hero could get away.. Like.. Heals maybe? All sorts of reasons!

So, in reality? The safest choice, which still isnt even that, is to buy Tavern Heros yourself. The problem with that is, they could have already gotten the hero with the highest survivability rate.. AKA the Marksman. Now, you have a higher chance of your Tavern Hero dying than theirs. Is that fair?

"So just lower the Marksman." This might be a viable fix for the situation, but likely not. As the Marksman to me is hard to kill because of how well he runs, not heals. Slow his move speed, perhaps? Even then..

Another annoying part about Tavern Heros is their random factor. They don't always play out as efficiently as they could, or have in previous games. The lack of control over them sort of feels like a wildcard purchase. You never know what could happen! You get the general idea what will happen, just like when you do a search on your computer for *.txt, or *.exe.. You have an idea what the wildcards will bring up.. But, you will still find things you didn't know about. I suppose the fact that sort of thing can always apply in games to your own hero, at least you have some control over it.

All in all, Tavern Heros have a good chance of stacking up over the opponent. At the same time, it just might not even happen. Sort of luck based. LUCK based.


Now that I have wasted part of my life, I will go make up for it elsewhere. And, Mianmian.. You really should try to be less like a person and more like yourself. What do I mean by that? Something random perhaps? No. Not random. It is quite obviously an insult to your person meant to make you question your character, your behavior, or perhaps something other than that. Just think on it, maybe.

Anyways, I'm done in this THREAD, not forum.

[jamn455]

I have no problem with the marksman because he has very low life even with his heal. The earth panda is a bigger priority to me because the fact that he has a stun, and has invulnerability. Still I fell like merc heroes are good for their price, even though it can be hard to get rid of them latter parts of the game.

[mianmian]

Fire Pandas and Blackguard are easy to pwn, they have no escape and while the AI is good at running, this stops them from acting offensively.

Storm Panda is mildly harder because blink but other then that the same.

Earth Panda is hard, but once he goes invul he will chase you, so you can lead him away and then rape as he tries to run back.

Marks I personally have a bit of trouble with, but im sure the same principles apply to him.

To note here is that Immobilize/Stun are the name of the game, as with all PKs. Wait till there lower on HP then stun/immobilize them then attack. Ganking a merc hero is a good investement don't fear Teamwork ~~

Tavern Heros are a bit too strong perhaps.

I have to disagree here, because I have never really had a problem dealing with them, they are a inconvinience, but they should be its a whole other hero to worry about, but its nothing unstoppable.

If you can't find a problem with Tavern Heros getting stacked up because you can't get them killed, then something is seriously wrong.

This has never happened to, ever, in any Eota game I have ever played.

"So just lower the Marksman."

Its been done 2 or 3 times already Imagine playing vs a 1.06 Marks :p

Y hero beats the shit out of you while you attempt to finish off X hero.

Bring a teamate, your proposing a 2v1 situation, you deserve to lose if you can finish the hero off, your a hero not God.

You really should try to be less like a person and more like yourself

Now this I will lose sleep over, some person insulting me over the internet
I could care less about my character, or how I act ~~
I'm not some some emo dirtbag teenager who worries what people think of him

LUCK based.

According to you, everyting you can't directly control is.

Most of the things you brought are ether AI problems or maybe skill problems, you seem to have an issue of PK'ing a hero who dosent charge suicidaly into your midst or waits like a sheep for the slaughter, so maybe you need to rethink your PK strategy

As for AI problems, well, talk to Yak about (I know Futatso already has [he is thrashm or w/e])

[Emufarmers]

LUCK based.

According to you, everyting you can't directly control is.

Most of the things you brought are ether AI problems or maybe skill problems, you seem to have an issue of PK'ing a hero who dosent charge suicidaly into your midst or waits like a sheep for the slaughter, so maybe you need to rethink your PK strategy

As for AI problems, well, talk to Yak about (I know Futatso already has [he is thrashm or w/e])

The thing about the AI in all other places, though, is that it will operate in predictable ways. The things that you don't directly control are supposed to be the other players in the game, so that it is the skill of the two sides that determines the outcome; if the AI is operating in a non-predictable way, then it can distort the competition between the sides.

I could care less about my character, or how I act ~~
I'm not some some emo dirtbag teenager who worries what people think of him

Believe it or not, normal people consider others' opinions and feelings. Not caring about how other people feel most likely indicates either a mental or personality disorder, or merely that you have fallen victim to the "Internet delusion," wherein nobody else's opinions matter, since others cannot physically harm you.

If it's the latter, take a hard look at yourself. If it's the former, seek immediate professional help. (This goes out to everybody, here.)

[mianmian]

is that it will operate in predictable ways.

But they are predictable, there super cautious running away once they hit 50% HP, and then theres certain hero specific traits that crop up a lot, I.E Dont channel aroudn Earth Panda hell stun, Marks will nuke a target you nuke, Earth Panda will chase if hes invul, very far.

"Internet delusion,"

No I'm pretty much like this in RL ~~

[Tehw00tz]

If any of the Tavern Heroes needs to be slightly stronger it needs to be Blackguard, I never see him used and when he is it's usaully on the more sad side of lol

(This goes out to everybody, here.)

What if we don't care about what two emo teenager dirtbags think about us?

[Dekar]

Not caring about how other people feel most likely indicates either a mental or personality disorder,...

Not my first disorder. :/

[Hammel]

I wonder why Blackguard is used so rarely... he can put up -dmg wards (lots of them), he has a stun just as effective as Earth Panda's and he can heal himself by consuming his skellies... he's got another ability, but I forgot that one atm...

EDIT: Blackguard's ult is a buff with +dmg, life leech and magic resistance, which should make him harder to nuke and to kill... so I really dont know what's so bad about him, in theory it should work well...

[Strychnyne]

I find in most games I play it's a race to the Marksman. He's SO hard to kill because he runs away from any and all units that come near him. As for his actual impact in the game, it's not huge. His critical is the only thing I worry about, and his nova is annoying and may require a quick heal, but nothing deadly. The Fire Panda is amazing late game, but really, really stupid. Earth Panda is between the two with his stun interupting channel spells and his invulnerability causing a quick route. Storm Panda isn't very dangerous. Though hard to kill, again, not hugely important. Since you can't combo with these heroes unless really lucky, there really isn't much to worry about. They can just occupy an otherwise empty lane. They are dangerous to the other AI players (Red and Blue) but not to the human controlled heroes. Blackguard isn't worth mentioning. He chases everyone and everything until he dies.

The problem with the AI heroes is that you can't talk to them. They'll either push the wrong lane or let your bases die or chase an enemy to their doom. The only way to kill them is to literall abuse their AI; chasing ranged INTO towers, running away from melee INTO towers, double teaming them when they can't tell the difference between one and five heroes. I don't think that's really WHY they are in the game.

I'd prefer a 1200gp instant repair to all defensive towers or something like that instead of the merc heroes. Something that can tip the balance if you can manage to pool together for that amount.

That's my two cents.

[mianmian]

1200g isnt hard to get, so it cant be too strong of a thing

p -dmg wards (lots of them)

its ether broken or he dosent skill it past level 1

Ive never seen him sue his ult (unless its passive) Never seen him heal, but he does summon his minion

[FutatsuNoOmoi]

  Blackgaurd is highly underrated, he makes for an excelent tank class with his heal and summons. Blackgaurd more than likely does seem like he suicides himself to easily, but only if you buy him late game. Blackgaurd either needs to be bought at the start, or needs to be given items when you buy him (Mainly Knight's Armor).

  The problem with Taven Heros is a lane with a mercinary hero verse a lane without one and two cores will end in the opposing lane falling. Given that, the objective becomes knock out their mercinary heros, and try to keep yours alive, especially in Candleburg, if they get Tavern hero advantage then you've pretty much lost.

  I think decreasing their "power" per say, and make them more purpose oriented, while lowering their cost a bit, and lowering the purchase time in between, and more heros to pick on the list. Also having a system that allows you to give them crude commands, would make them more strategy based. Rather than stack up power effect. Granted that effect would still exist, but it wouldn't be as high of a scale, and again it would be more strategy based rather than situation AI factors that in user's control is random.

  With the way mercinaries are now, it more than anything forces select classes, that is if you want to win.

  And yes, I left the start vague, I like to have other people's ideas out there, before I get too involved, that's just my style. I think you'll learn to live with it. ^_^

[mianmian]

underrated

I would disagree, hes the worst merc hero ~~ and from my expirience merc heroes are pretty bad

Now, Personally after thinking on it a bit, and listening to your comments and shit (and having a nice argument with Someting ~~) I think that what you want, is a new kind of merc, a Half-hero Half-unit kinda thing, that has 1 specific purpose, like Push Mercthingy, or a PK one? or something like that, Siege w/e

Anyway, maybe a way to control these+Merc Heroes is a beacon thing, wich you can move it between lanes, and to balance this, maybe the other team could steal it and move it lanes too?