EotA--false appearance of depth...

[Shadow.M4L]

Hmm i dont know what you mean Hammel... but i got another idea.
I dont think this will work out but you could add a -Help command.
Then people get a list of Commands like Obelisk. And the camera will move over a Obelisk and tell them what to do.

So if they want learn, they are given a change to do so.

[Hammel]

Sorry, -help wouldnt do shit, when they are to stupid to read the text on the screen.

Shad, ever played Age of Empires? At the very beginning, people are taught how to move, attack, build, etc... I think of something like this, just like "how to build an ob, how to teleport, how to upgrade items" etc.

[Shadow.M4L]

its not just aoe, but your example kinda sucks

Caus the tutorial is singleplayer and does not start in the beginning of a multiplayer game.
But your idea in the other thread isnt bad.

[BLUEPOWERVAN]

I have actually thought about how to fix most of it.

Move upgrades out of the altar. Make a big glowing area that says "upgrade items" and allows you to upgrade items when you move into it.

Include a lot of spammed instructions for the first few actions almost everyone takes. These spammed instructions would only appear for lvl 0 players, and could still be disabled with -tutoff or something.

For example, every 5 seconds or so suggest the person should upgrade their starting item, ping where on the map to do so. Essentially make them do it. If they don't, they never stop getting spammed.

After they have upgraded, ping the location of all the obelisks. Then maybe ping the location of the 3 relatively safe ones. Tell them to select a castle and teleport to it. Then ping all the castles and maybe even make them select one of them. Repeatedly ping the castles until they teleport. The obelisk info would spam until they had placed their obelisk or sold or dropped it.

Once they get 600 gold, suggest they probably should buy a peon and a generator. Spam text and ping castle locations if need be.

If there are 2+ obelisk cores unused on the team, tell the noobs to build a tower.

If they have 30+ crystal unused and have never upgraded, tell them to upgrade their hero. Force select the altar if need be.

Or, a better suggestion would be to add a hero upgrade menu to the hero, a la HOSK. There's like 50 buildings in a home base, you aren't going to click on each one to see if it has some super-power associated with it. People for damn sure click on all their innate abilities and menus though.

Finally, if upgrades come back, and the team has 900+ upgrade points, spam about using them.

Again, after these spammy instructions, tell the person how to disable the spam (-tutoff and saving codes).

EDIT: If someone has a lot of money, ping the artifact shop / alt equip shops, neutral goblin shops, rockin arthas, or the neutral hero tavern. Not necessarily spammily, just ping and explain once for each place. If they already have items suggest they might want to upgrade them blah blah. This for people with like 1000+. If someone has 1500+ and an expansion is open, suggest that.

Possibly something should prompt them to think about buying mercs. You could just prompt them based on gold value, or you could make it useful and prompt them based on some army swamping a base.

FURTHER EDIT: The first time a friendly obelisk comes under attack, you could suggest they teleport to it and save it, so that they know they can teleport to obes.

[Shadow.M4L]

Well its a little harsh and direct but i think that is the only way to do it.
I also wont realy suggest buying generators.

But i like it not bad though...

[Tehw00tz]

I was liking it until the part with the generator, if they build a generator, they'll get experience taken away.
(Each energy point that the generator uses accounts for a 1% gain in experience)

[mianmian]

BLUE, you forget that hoarding Upgrades/Core is an effective strategy, also in a Pub game, we might not want to tower/Up for some reason, then the vets would get spammed to fuck, wich is gay.

I salute you for your effort, but I found a problem (sometimes minor ~~) with each of the things you listed, and a few of them would piss me off, even if I was a nub, force select = good way to get no one to play your map.

Also, if your to fucking dumb to click on the building you OWN (see Altar) that you spawn beside when you die, you dont deserve item upgrades IMO.

[jamn455]

Oh, and about the snowball effect everyone was talking about earlier, dota uses the same system and noone trashes the system it uses. You kill their crypt, your creeps get stronger and they are worth less money.

[Hammel]

But by that time, the game is over...

[FutatsuNoOmoi]

If this helps this stretched out arguement, every game you play will have a win before a technical win, that's just how strategy works. If your strategy fails and causes you to lose, you should have identified that your strategy wasn't working and change it up before it's too late.

[BLUEPOWERVAN]

I'm not saying these are the best moves ever, but people should know how to, and actually do them, at least once. There is nothing I "forgot" about.

I'd much rather endanger the occasional execution of a tower hoarding strategy, if that meant doing away with the all too common problem of pub teams with no clue how to play, or how 90% of the things that make the game EotA, EotA, work.

You are almost all so addicted to your own view of the game, that no words will convince you that there could be reasons other than "average warcraft player stupidity", that hold back the popularity of the game. Maybe there exist a world where people don't click on their altar, because they've played one or more of the other dozens of AOS's, and in all of them the altar doesn't do shit but summon their hero?

[Hammel]

Well, there are LARGE tip boxes throughout the whole game, telling you what to do... and even if you are in battle from time to time, you aren't constantly under tons of adrenaline that let you miss the text, so there is some time left to read the tips... they dont... guess why?

[mianmian]

Maybe there exist a world where people don't click on their altar, because they've played one or more of the other dozens of AOS's, and in all of them the altar doesn't do shit but summon their hero?

I think thats part of your afore mentioned stupidity?

[jamn455]

Did dota ever have a hint that said, you cannot get lumber, just get the piece for the recipe. No people helped the noobs out so why dont you try that out before trying to introduce them to a tutorial of a game so they never have any fun.

[Daeatul]

hehe I only read the first page of the post. Should make it so if anyone with a code surrenders anyone else with a code gets 0 exp and no pie for the rest of there life. Personally winning is boring I'd rather lose and have plenty to kill. basically screw winning decimate all make there game last 2 hours so what if ya lose. MAKE THEM PAY for there win

[Emufarmers]

Did dota ever have a hint that said, you cannot get lumber, just get the piece for the recipe.

Uh, isn't that why DotA doesn't have the lumber system anymore?

[jamn455]

Yeah after millions of versions.

[BLUEPOWERVAN]

Yeah, that was an excellent proof JAMZ. DotA, by far and away the most popular, well-known map of wc3, still feels the need to improve its transparency to new players.

And okay, I concede, a player that doesn't spend the first 10 minutes of an AOS clicking on buildings and reading help text/tooltips has an IQ of 85 or lower. You guys win, with such smarties, I cannot contend.

[ashwa]

Ok I have 2 ideas on how to get it to be more action and fast gameplay... If you make mercs free, and make their cooldown depend mostly on enemys killed in defense of the outpost, this would make it important to make a successful push and gives the defenders an possibility to comeback... sludging it out slowly out over the battlefield is not so good since no part gets more merc points unless they are outside their respective outposts doing the killing. After you select mercs they should have a summoning time to prevent them being too easily abused for defense.. thats not their main purpose imo.. they are there to give defenders a momentum if they can defend the outpost from utter destruction..

To further spice it up you could stop spawning the creeptower creeps in each wave and instead let them build up in the outpost to be released by the players when they find a proper time to use them... there would be a cap that depends on the size of the outpost to stop insane waves and furthermore giving outpost upgrading more value.. and since you lose the creeps you should have gotten after the cap controlling the most obelisks shouldnt give you too much an edge in the long run. more merc options would be fun too with this system seeing them beeing used so much due to being free.. so what do ya say guys?

my 12 dollars...

[ashwa]

oh and maybe change the mercs to fill a role in offense.. like tier 1 halls can get either some cheap meatwall mercs or standard offense wich requires more souls\cooldown and tier 2 gets maybe a ranged merc pack and an advanced defender pack and tier 3 gets siege and caster so that you have 6 options at tier 3 but all have different cooldowns\soulrequirements so you cant just spam more and more... say the outpost gives a bonus to the cooldown wich changes the higher upgraded the outpost is.. maybe add generators that can be used to give even more bonus to the cooldown... these options should provide alot of strategic possibilitys on f.eks how much you fokus on townhall upgrading or obelisks.. or other stuff like gens and whatsnot to support the outposts.. I see good games on kedges for example is dominated by mercs.. so is candleburg and if you refine it more this may give us a really fun map where you dont get so much of the slow advancing across the battlefields but more the who can make the biggest baddest creep push and conquer the enemy outpost

[Demongod86]

BLUE, you forget that hoarding Upgrades/Core is an effective strategy, also in a Pub game, we might not want to tower/Up for some reason, then the vets would get spammed to fuck, wich is gay.

I salute you for your effort, but I found a problem (sometimes minor ~~) with each of the things you listed, and a few of them would piss me off, even if I was a nub, force select = good way to get no one to play your map.

Also, if your to fucking dumb to click on the building you OWN (see Altar) that you spawn beside when you die, you dont deserve item upgrades IMO.

See that's the thing, if you're knocking down their barracks, that's icing on the cake more or less. If you're knocking down their barracks, it means you're winning, not that you're winning because you knocked down the barracks. The destruction of one set of rax also can be rectified if their team makes a mistake and they lose 3 heroes in a team battle and you take that one minute while they're dead to kill one of THEIR sets of rax.

Now if you lose 2 or more sets of rax, it means you're pretty much done, but not because you lost the rax.

And as has been mentioned, by the time rax are being knocked down, the game is just about over, and not really before unless there is a HUGE mismatch.

As was said, the problem with EotA is this. The defenders defend because they defended. Once you lose a base, you're stuck defending that base, making your presence in other lanes weaker, making all other bases more vulnerable, and so on and so forth, hence a snowball effect. Not to mention that in DotA, it takes all of 20 seconds for one very powerful hero to knock down a barracks. In EotA, it is VERY hard to singlehandedly destroy bases.

Oh, and as for the heroes that CAN swing the game quickly like tactician, well all I have to say is this: see the thread that's trying to get her NERFED because she can actually kill buildings relatively efficiently so she CAN'T.

[Hammel]

In EotA, it is VERY hard to singlehandedly destroy bases.

You play with the wrong people. Tactician (without Flank) and BP can solo bases as long as there are units around, some Scarab players make it even without units, so you play with the wrong people -.-.

Oh, and as for the heroes that CAN swing the game quickly like tactician, well all I have to say is this: see the thread that's trying to get her NERFED because she can actually kill buildings relatively efficiently so she CAN'T.

Guess you're talking about the discussion thread in the Heroes subforum? I intended one thing with it, that is DISCUSSION, not crying for Yak to swing the nerf hammer like you do. And she isnt by far the only one (Harpy, Infil), and the others arent considered imba and therefore on the nerf-list under that topic.

But why do I write this? People hardly take you seriously, and you wont learn...

[mianmian]

And okay, I concede, a player that doesn't spend the first 10 minutes of an AOS clicking on buildings and reading help text/tooltips has an IQ of 85 or lower. You guys win, with such smarties, I cannot contend.

Just want to say, if it takes you 10 minutes to find the building you spawn beside, that you own you do have an IQ lower then 85

[Demongod86]

In EotA, it is VERY hard to singlehandedly destroy bases.

You play with the wrong people. Tactician (without Flank) and BP can solo bases as long as there are units around, some Scarab players make it even without units, so you play with the wrong people -.-.

Oh, and as for the heroes that CAN swing the game quickly like tactician, well all I have to say is this: see the thread that's trying to get her NERFED because she can actually kill buildings relatively efficiently so she CAN'T.

Guess you're talking about the discussion thread in the Heroes subforum? I intended one thing with it, that is DISCUSSION, not crying for Yak to swing the nerf hammer like you do. And she isnt by far the only one (Harpy, Infil), and the others arent considered imba and therefore on the nerf-list under that topic.

But why do I write this? People hardly take you seriously, and you wont learn...

What I mean by "soloing bases" is just that. No units. Hero walks in, 20 seconds later, base is gone. In DotA, backdooring is a viable strategy with some heroes (clinkz, stacked terrorblade) because WITHOUT UNITS, they can guarantee the destruction of spawn buildings and quickly.

In EotA, there is no hero that pops up and basically guarantees the destruction of a base. It would be nice if infilt's sabotage was uncapped so you COULD go and singlehandedly stomp a base. And with a lack of different options, the game becomes monotonous and boring.

[Tehw00tz]

It would be nice if infilt's sabotage was uncapped so you COULD go and singlehandedly stomp a base

So you want EotA to be more like DotA?
Great idea.