Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

Point of contention 1: AoO is a noobkiller skill. It doesn't take much of anything to defend against it besides smart play by essentially moving around back and forth when not casting spells. Furthermore, serpent wards (that have truesight) don't really help out when you have to be stalking a hero forever. It is much more efficient in practically all situations to skill mines. It is much easier simply to farm up in the early levels with mines.

I suggest that if blitz is broken by an AoO that it gets some bonuses if not the full bonus, so that it actually becomes viable as an early-on skill.

Point of contention 2: Malicious escape. I remember when there was a huge flamestrike left in the wake of this technique. As of the moment, it's a 1-point wonder that doesn't really do much as you level it up. Bring back the flamestrike.

Well, as a good Inf player I have to say something here.

The shocking truth is, you dont need to be invisible to use AoO.

Even good players will have a hard to time to defend against Blink behind his back + AoO if they dont dance all the time, and thats just stupid to do and makes no fun and ruins your mouse and finger.

Using it against fleeing hero is also pretty easy, no matter how good the player is. He has to get away sooner or later and dancing will also get him killed.

Also nobody will dance through the whole game, especially if the inf is on the top lane for some waves and he ison the bottom lane. Switching lanes to unaware opponents will always work.

If the enemy spends enourmous amounts of gold to buy Amulets or Powder of Detection or even serpent wards and is still dancing around just to have a chance to evade a third of AoO, then you as Inf have already won.

And nobody says you cant skill explosives AND AoO.

Mines are far more suspectible to detection and require setup time, as a single one wont do the job, but their advantage is the AoE, vision and remote control.

Well, escape really needs a change.

What Dek said, think outside the Bos, Inf is pwn if you know wtf your doing.. jesus

Just to clarify. Demon posted this after I absolutely raped him in a 4v4 game on Stormwail.

By the middle of the game, we had 2 leavers (Fenris/Bane), and they had 1 leaver (SB).

If the enemy spends enourmous amounts of gold to buy Amulets or Powder of Detection or even serpent wards and is still dancing around just to have a chance to evade a third of AoO, then you as Inf have already won.

That was me <<, as icespinner constantly laning (usually alone) in center against Demons (and most of the time, divine wizard as well), always with a pack of dust. I only danced around once though, when I saw him Blitz for a AoO and was at low health (and I had no dust left). It was easy otherwise to dust now and then when I get suspicious and net/icelance/frostspire Demons.

Escape, maybe could use a slight buff to poison damage or range of blink. Not to cooldown. I'm guessing firebomb escapes weren't just Infiltrator style. As it stands though, Infiltrator has one of the highest base attack speeds in the game.

No, that wasn't you. That was many other players. You didn't rape me, you raped buildings and our RK wouldn't do crap to help our investment.

Oh alright fine. I raped both you, AND your buildings. I have a replay if anybody wants to watch it. But how do I upload this damn thing.

Our RK was a dumbass that didn't protect our investment. If he'd been there, you would have been boned flat out.

Edit: I could say so many things. But I won't <<

My counters to Inf ( very rarely needed ) are
1)Amulet of Detection:
Costy for 900 gold but allows permanent scanning for casters and other heroes will get some mana items on them most of the time so they wont exactly be screwed by using 10 mana here and there. Can be sold for 100% if you really need the gold.
2) Orb of Health:
Really one of the best counters until very late game with some heroes. Ice Spinner easily takes an additional AoO with it and can then counter with Ice Lance, Spire and Net, resulting in very heavy damage to the poor Inf.

Meh, Inf is fine, I do fine against/with her. Nets for those hard to get rid of air heroes, mines for those oh so annoying ground heroes, and escape to poison a few ground units and help the next wave, smoke bomb for towers right before you blow them into oblivion with sabotage.

Against her, nets and stun rockets (both from the goblin workshop), amulet of dectection, wand of shadowsight, Fenris's innate is pretty much anti-infilitrator, dust of appearence. Hell, dancing back and forth between your melee units and ranged units makes some miss with AoO.

I don't really know what your getting at but Infiltrator is right where she should be right now.

I wish I could play Infil.

As stated, amulet of detection is a good bet. It has no cooldown, uses very little mana, and is actually only 500 gold.

Infiltrator can be a very hard class to use at times. Players flop around too much by ACCIDENT even, making my attack of oppurtunity miss.

Frusterating, although good, is the Infiltrator.

Dekar wrote:My counters to Inf ( very rarely needed ) are
1)Amulet of Detection:
Costy for 900 gold but allows permanent scanning for casters and other heroes will get some mana items on them most of the time so they wont exactly be screwed by using 10 mana here and there. Can be sold for 100% if you really need the gold.
2) Orb of Health:
Really one of the best counters until very late game with some heroes. Ice Spinner easily takes an additional AoO with it and can then counter with Ice Lance, Spire and Net, resulting in very heavy damage to the poor Inf.

Isn't it somewhat wrong that an entire hero gets countered by a 900 gold item?

Be more observent. If you really want to go for ganks, then you'd know that patience is a virtue!

Players will have routines they do, that you could exploit by learning the routines. It's FIVE HUNDRED GOLD by the way, as already said.

Also, this doesn't leave out teamwork as a possible option.

He doesn't get entirely countered by detection. Granted, if an entire team has to buy detection against you, then thats 1 slot in everyhero's book used. As well as gold taken out of upgrades/consumeables.

Plus, like it was said, you don't have to blitz to use AoO. Its just as nasty as laning with a good disabling hero and casting it then.

Fierach wrote:He doesn't get entirely countered by detection. Granted, if an entire team has to buy detection against you, then thats 1 slot in everyhero's book used. As well as gold taken out of upgrades/consumeables.

So you prefer having 5/30 itemslot of the enemy used to having a usefull hero? And YES the inf is entirely countered by detection. (If you are really going to argue about that one always think if the ways that the inf could be used when detected are worth more then an RK/DW/BP/AA/Tact/Aero/...)

Oh and the amulett of detection has a positive gold outcome.
I mean... What counts more: this ridiculously low anmount of gold you have spend for it or the times you don't get killed/you are able to kill the inf?

And to be honest the "comboing" argument is total bullshit.
EVERY hero can combo while the inf is the only one who has to combo? Do you see the flaw in that?

something wrote: Players will have routines they do, that you could exploit by learning the routines.

You really want to study a players routines? :D
And what do you want to do with a routine like mine... Always doing MWhellDown when the inf is not on the minimap?

something wrote: Infiltrator can be a very hard class to use at times.

Actually I will not say anything to this.
I quoted it to show how some people don't read or don't want to understand the posts of other people.

(I'm referring to this post)

ToXiK wrote: I wish I could play Infil.

Tehw00tz wrote: I don't really know what your getting at but Infiltrator is right where she should be right now.

So the inf should be the clinkz of eota? Pwz0riZing n00bs 45535 but being useless against a semi-decent player?

de-cross wrote:

Tehw00tz wrote: I don't really know what your getting at but Infiltrator is right where she should be right now.

So the inf should be the clinkz of eota? Pwz0riZing n00bs 45535 but being useless against a semi-decent player?

First off, she has mines which can stop a huge push in it's tracks, even at level 1 they can still destroy a few creeps (if she has a good intelligence stat)

Secondly, she has a smoke screen which makes ranged units and towers miss 90% of the time for 66 seconds at level six.

And she has Sabotage, which can easily be the most base-destructive skill after a push.

AoO doesn't have to be her best skill, she can be a base killer, a push stopper, a tower disabler, and yes she can still be a hero killer.

And against semi-decent players? Give me a break. I've played games on East, West, and Northrend picking Infiltrator and still getting above 10 kills, and yes, some of them were against people in the clan or people that hang out there.

Inactive Euro Chieftains shouldn't post, because if I write that I own you with Inf you will just say hat you suck because of a lack of games played and even though that means you shouldnt have posted here in the first place you wont accept it.

Inf is not completly countered by Detection.

If you have 500 damage dealing mines, you can easily stop pushes on the fly or prepare traps for enemys. They are not automatically killed after you lay them. You dont need to lay them on the main roads. I got so many kills by running away and leading the enemy into a trap. Even if they detect all the time, they still need to stop moving and turn around if they detect mines and then it may be too late.

Permanent detection costs ridiculously amounts of mana or gold and you will never see it ingame. You CAN slip in between 2 detections, even though their effect goes over some time the detection on applys at a single moment to units. Even if you are detected, your are not automatically aquired. Sometimes it even happens that you have an ally near who may get attacked by the enemy. YOU DONT NEED INVISIBLITY TO USE AOO.

And the important thing to own with Inf, is to not fall behind in exp too much because of laneswitching. Because if you dont switch lanes you cant get very much kills and if you fall back too much you are an easy target.

Although you don't REQUIRE Blitz to use AoO, most people do. So what's the answer? Seriously, ShadowSight is amazing. I costs JUST a bit less than it does to dispell, which is great because you're winning on gold. The big thing is they have to break invisibility to dispell it. If you just use the -h(ero)esc command, you can just run up and tag her whenever she's actually visible. Combo that with Dust which is super cheap, and you're fine. It doesn't have a cast animation, so not everyone will notice right away.

  As you know, you can use disable statuses to land it from any direction, on top of that, you CAN do a good blink placement along side with a shifted AoO, to land a good hit in, so long as the hero has aggro on a different target when you do so. Just like a lot of other things, you just got to see the situation, and improvise and bend around the surroundings. It's a scary word, but yes it may take micro management. ^_^

first off, let me say this, the inf is NOT op, not even close, the only op heros are Ascendant, Nephillium, and possibly Alexander. but thats it!
second, her backstab almost NVR does its max damage just cuz its frikin hard to do that.
third, her AoO is physical, which means its affected by armor .
forth, shes squshy. lets face it, she dies fast.

convinsed yet? thought not. well, anyway, if ur off somewere getting owned by inf here are some heros that would RAPE her if specd right.

Bane, his cuastic breath sets off her mines, hes frikin strong (got him to 7400hp lvl 55).
Yggdrasil, 6 sec stun, high DPS (if specd right).
Fenris, high DPS, search.
Prince Rue, half damage to all spells and all normal damage .
and any other tank u can name. if u got any suggestions or just want to debate the issue, feel free. ---Seig_2 (seig means victory in German)

Actually its "Sieg"

so victory is dredging up old threads?

Isnt that the purpose of a forum where old threads do not get closed / deleted?

lol, ur right Dekar. Sieg. lol i alway mix the two up. anyway thnx.
curious, how do u spec inf?

agi?
int?
agi/int? ( I like this spec best)