Spawn Tower/Core

Message

FutatsuNoOmoi · #1 Post by **FutatsuNoOmoi** » June 28th, 2007, 10:50 pm

Just throwing this one out there... What would be fun, and maybe a good supliment to upgrades... Is doubling the core rate, maybe even tripple it, but in turn spawn towers will cost two to place. What is the point in that? Well, for one core the spawn tower could get upgraded, IE. Knight Tower upgraded to a Paladian Tower or a Heavy Knight Tower, Upgrade an Archer Tower to a Hunter Tower or a Rouge Tower.

#2 Post by **Tehw00tz** » June 29th, 2007, 12:17 am

Thus making the Tactician's ultimate useless.

FutatsuNoOmoi · #3 Post by **FutatsuNoOmoi** » June 29th, 2007, 1:09 am

Ummm... Promotion never affected tower spawned units...

#4 Post by **Tehw00tz** » June 29th, 2007, 1:53 am

Who'd want to use a skill point while you can just get super units every spawn for the cost of 2-3 tower cores?
Just to clarify this with you. 30 crystal= one skill point. 30 crystal= 300 gold. 500 gold= one obelisk control tower. In a regular game 4-5 people would get a free ob control tower, so lets say they have 4 ob's (3 safe ob's and one expansion ob). They'll be effectively getting cores. Now, would you rather the skill point in something else or would you rather super spawns which spawn every wave and doesn't cost your hero mana or have a long cooldown.

If this "super spawn" idea was ever implemented I'd much rather spend 500 and lose 200 gold from the 30 crystal and build another ob control tower to get the better spawns then using my ultimate once every 3-4 waves.

FutatsuNoOmoi · #5 Post by **FutatsuNoOmoi** » June 29th, 2007, 2:33 am

First of all, I must ask why you would want to spend 30 crystals for a skill point on that class, under any army balance... The class handles so well without upgrades that I just pool any of my crystals off elsewhere with that class, just the points you get from leveling is good enough to get promotion.

I also never stated how much improvement of them would be... It could be a minor adjustment or greater, or maybe only adding abilities to them... Even if that were the case, if they were really strong, even more reason to get promotion, make the other units around them stronger to stack it up...

Back in 1.10, with having Archers with Beast Mastery, and Druids with Improved Starfall, I didn't feel any discouragement to using promotion...

I guess you just never took in the obvious possibility of having strong tower spawn units AND promoted units together as a even deadlier than before combination.

#6 Post by **Tehw00tz** » June 29th, 2007, 11:47 am

No, it's game mechanics and it's how to decide how a value is to a skill point. Tactician has two skills which need of the skill points, I'm not going to get into a hero skill arguement over this, but banner is much more helpful.

Secondly, if the improvement wouldn't be that great what's the point? I'd still rather have goblin shredders than "upgraded knights" which aren't better than a level 2 promotion.

or maybe only adding abilities to them

So, you want to make upgrades into tower cores.

I guess you just never took in the obvious possibility of having strong tower spawn units AND promoted units together as a even deadlier than before combination.

Like I said before, 30 crystal= 300 gold. Extra 200 gold is an ob tower. Extra ob tower= extra cores. Now, would you rather have these "super spawns" or Promotion.

If these "super spawns" aren't worth the extra 200 gold I'd rather have Promotion.

Something · #7 Post by **Something** » June 29th, 2007, 11:55 am

You can't seem to develop any positives as much as you do negatives, Tehw00tz.

Typical person however.

If thought was put to it, this could be a very well balanced, and different way to use cores, while still keeping everything useful.

If you can't see that possibility, then your opinion means nothing.

#8 Post by **Tehw00tz** » June 29th, 2007, 11:58 am

Agreeing with yourself doesn't make it right.

Pheonick · #9 Post by **Pheonick** » June 29th, 2007, 11:59 am

I think these spawn tower upgrade is just too much. There are already spawn upgrades (in older versions at least), hero upgrades, spawn building upgrades. Next merc heroes will get their own altar with which to upgrade themselves and you'll be able to upgrade abilities onto spawn buildings and ob towers making them more useful in defence. It's an interesting idea but it's too much! Enough is enough!

Something · #10 Post by **Something** » June 29th, 2007, 12:16 pm

Tehw00tz wrote:Agreeing with yourself doesn't make it right.

If you mean the IP thing, we're on a network.

Again, you didn't care to think of the possibilities, you just took whatever negative scenario you could think of.

#11 Post by **Tehw00tz** » June 29th, 2007, 12:23 pm

Very astute of you to make assumptions about myself and my character. But please, I'm still waiting for the counter arguement to my point.

If these things weren't as strong as previously mentioned I'd probally just spam lower level cores like in a game of Castle Fight and take the enemy earlier leaving them thinking why their not so "super spawns" spawns got run over by twice their numbers. Promotion wouldn't hold a chance against super spawns if they were more power than twice the amount of their lower level counterparts.

edit: I realize your trying to help Yak make this game better, except this idea isn't the greatest, I'm not trying to be an asshole.

Something · #12 Post by **Something** » June 29th, 2007, 12:39 pm

Well, certain abilities could be added that gave them a specific use, or counter to other units. Maybe an extra attack could be given to some units via the upgrade.

Yes, in reality it is just like uprades.

Also, you don't really have to sacrifice anything to get promotion, unless you actually LIKE greatbow.. Net is decent, if you make use of it.. But, usually I just go flank/banner/promotion. You do get that free point at 15 afterall, and if you don't use it, you'll just not have that extra skill.

It was never stated how strong these units would be, you are assuming that they would make promotion useless because of strength, when they wouldn't. Also, since you can only promote normal units, you'd still have extra power in the area you chose to use promotion at.

Have you ever played a good game of Battlecraft? The right combination of units slaughter more than the units worth. You can spend 2000 on a few things, and they can kill more than 3000 worths of units if the enemy counters wrong.

Provided the upgrade through cores actually were useful, the same effect could be applied there. No, not through mass damage or mass life.. Damage type effectivness, armor type effectivness, maybe a specific ability added.

Again, not really any different from upgrades. Just another way to get them. In the wrong hands, yes, they'd probably lose out by being overly massed. No different than how it is now.

Pheonick · #13 Post by **Pheonick** » June 29th, 2007, 12:58 pm

What's wrong with greatbow? I rather like getting well over 300 damage from an annoying range. Also means you don't need another hero to optimise the use of net. Greatbow/net is a great PK build on tact, usually with an ambush rank simply for the stealth netting benefits. Just because banner is the most chosen ability on tact doesn't mean she's and less useful with other skill placements.

jamn455 · #14 Post by **jamn455** » June 29th, 2007, 7:26 pm

Its a pretty fucking dumb idea. Lets find a way to make some units way imbalanced compared to others. This can be the change of an archer countering a drake and 3-4 archers countering an elite drake or some shit by your idea. Its not a good idea as it leads to imbalance. Imbalance leads to people with dumb suggestions, and dumb suggestions lead to me having to be an asshole. And me being an asshole leads to people getting mad at me which makes me even madder at the whole situation which gets someone banned for no reason at all.

Moral to the story is, it is a bad idea.

Something · #15 Post by **Something** » June 29th, 2007, 7:37 pm

Uhh.. Some units are imbalanced compared to others.. It is called a counter.

Damage types and armor types exist, and some units aren't effective to against other units because of this.. THE GAME IS ALREADY LIKE THAT!

Also, if they choose not to stop such a strategy, it is their own fault. Based off of the spawn towers they chose to build, and what spawn towers their enemy uses, they can guess how the enemy might counter.

But in the end, when it comes to counters, it all comes down to who builds what first. Things can't be changed afterall. But, with some thought, you can overcome the situation anyhow! Unless they counter your plan to deal with them having countered you.. Hmm..

jamn455 · #16 Post by **jamn455** » June 29th, 2007, 9:38 pm

Yeah but saying if you have so many more cores and crystal you can get upgraded units and they will have the shitty first units and no matter if they counter you it will be worthless.

Something · #17 Post by **Something** » June 29th, 2007, 9:44 pm

And it is no different than it is now. You're complaining about exactly how the system is already.

FIRST to build is the first to stick their neck out.

jamn455 · #18 Post by **jamn455** » June 29th, 2007, 11:32 pm

Not quite, heroes can stop the majority of spawn tower units. Why dont you talk about the magnitude of an upgrade that the unit would go through.

Something · #19 Post by **Something** » June 29th, 2007, 11:57 pm

Well, the magnitude would be decided if Yak wanted to implement it. Nothing has to be a huge increase, after all, we shouldn't be making things obsolete, just offering different ways to win.

mianmian · #20 Post by **mianmian** » July 1st, 2007, 9:01 am

I have to agree with W00tz and Jamn Something, you really havent made a great argument for your case, and also I dont think adding "uber" units is worth it.

If they cost lets say 1 core, for 1 unit, well it would have to be obsurdly overpowered to be worth losing 1 unit in that lane for the rest of the game, you know what I mean?

However I *can* maybe see them as kinda like mercenaries, but they cost cores? so "uber" mercs.

However, that would probably be imbalance... maybe

Mills · #21 Post by **Mills** » July 1st, 2007, 9:33 am

I lawled.

Something · #22 Post by **Something** » July 1st, 2007, 1:00 pm

That's it, this is my final post here.

I've had it. You people are obviously too imcompetent to discuss things with.

For starters mianmian, I'm not even the creator of this thread, so you've lost credit.

And again, for the "I'm not counting" time: It was never said that they would be "uber" units, or "super" or anything relating to such. GET A CLUE.

Sounds to me, you people couldn't build a nice set of stairs if you tried 1000 times in a row.

Pheonick · #23 Post by **Pheonick** » July 1st, 2007, 1:07 pm

I'm just arguing the point of overcomplication. If they were different, albeit slightly stronger units you may aswell give new building choices to the worker in a Advanced Buildings tab, either costing 2 cores or having a smaller maximum amount for main spawners (1 - tier 1, 2 - tier 2, 4 - tier 3).
It may not be a reasonable idea, but that doesn't necessarily mean it can't be good/made better.

mianmian · #24 Post by **mianmian** » July 1st, 2007, 1:25 pm

I'm not even the creator of this thread

Ya my bad, however you seem to be agree'ing with him, so in essence your taking his side, no?

"super spawn"

W00tz started it ~~

strong tower spawn

Is what your brother? said, wich isnt as exagerated as "uber" but is basicly the same thing to a lesser extent

I also never stated how much improvement of them would be...

This is basicly where the problem started, how to make the upgraded spawns worth spending cores on? Since they would minimum have to be at least as strong as having an extra completly different unit so most likely doubling there strenght (Unless its jsut a way to spend cores after every base has 7 towers tacked on to it, wich isnt realistic)

Anyway

Again, you didn't care to think of the possibilities, you just took whatever negative scenario you could think of.

This is the thing that gets me, your also not giving any examples at all, to help out your just bashing on w00tz, almost flaming his posts

Yes, in reality it is just like uprades.

Wich is another problem, why would you want to waste Cores on a unit that can just get hard-countered (as you mention) instead of using the mana at the Spawn Upgrade building for free? Thus not letting your new better unit get hard countered and saving you a Core.

This in turns leads to having to make the units even stronger to make them less affected by the hard-counter, without letting get fucked over by something else worth half the cost (I.E a different tier1 spawn unit) and making them stronger over-all, again.

What's wrong with greatbow?

Thankyou, its Tacts best move, along with Flank/Promote.

I rarely get more then 1-2 points in banner (unless I get crystal then I buy some more) since Great Bow is an amazing passive, and a good nuke, Flank is amazing now, and net too PK wise, letting Tact PK and Push very well, Banner isnt as good as its made out to be.

Lets find a way to make some units way imbalanced compared to others.

Jamn hit the nail on the head, mind you, rudely wich is like Jamn though :p

Some units are imbalanced compared to others.. It is called a counter.

yes but your no realizing that this is bringing the idea a step further because if your upgraded unit is still hard-countered by the same unit or a unit half the cost, its not worth paying cores for. However if there too strong and can only be killed by the equivalent tierX unit, then in the time it takes to get that unit the Expo could be lost? (unless the tierX units are lame and maybe not worth the cost?) Forcing people to keep cores in reserve.

And it is no different than it is now. You're complaining about exactly how the system is already.

No hes not, hes complaining about how the systeme mentioned will most likely work. If you cant understand that, well I dunno, maybe re-read his post or something.

FIRST to build is the first to stick their neck out.

Actually, the way it *could* (hint: Probably will) work out in the mentioned systeme is basicly a huge race to get the tierX unit spawn towers, so 1st to get the towers, has an advantage.

However, this is assuming the TierX units are worth it, once again so no counters by ly lower tier units/same hard-counter/worth more then having another unit in that lane.

Nothing has to be a huge increase

Like I've mentioned they increase has to be resonable compared to the cost, wich is a pretty hefty cost, Cores, the most important/powerfull resource in the game.

to discuss things with.

ou really havent made a great argument for your case,

So...? Were discussing things, so you should support your side, but once again your not ~~.

Btw: Sorry for the incompetence

Mills · #25 Post by **Mills** » July 1st, 2007, 1:53 pm

I say go with the idea just because Clan EotA fails to present any type of good arguement at all.