Gloomreap Mire's play style...

[FutatsuNoOmoi]

  I would have to say that a good ammount of players I've come across, friends, and I prefer Obelisk control style of play over the new. Am I suggesting remove the old style of play? I'm suggesting allowing both to exist in newer versions. How would it be handled? Well just put both play styles in the map selection vote, as "Gloomreap Mire" and "Gloomreap Mire [Classic]", of course both utilizing the same play feild, just played differently!

[DarnYak]

I'm actually planning to make a post on Gloom in the near future. Making Gloom a desirable map is one of my priorites for 1.12.

I also want to add, just because the gloomite mechanic isn't nessarily balanced at the moment, don't instantly discard it. I believe the current setup isn't working as well as intended, but still has potential to be improved to the point where its balanced and fun. So please dont instantly vote to go back to the old system just becuase the new one isn't working right yet.

DarnYak

[mianmian]

I like the idea of the gloomite, and I would also like something aside from obelisks, if you want Obs, play Stormwail IMO

However, my main beef with Gloom is the interwinding lanes, they are gay as fuck IMO, they piss me off every game, its just something that bothers me.

Also for some reason, I find that the Bottom Left 2 bases always seem to die first

On a better note, I think the Gloom specific towers/items are awsome one of the best ideas yet IMO.

[Something]

I think mining gloomite should be manual.


Edit - The twisting lanes can be confusing, but it's a good thing, and one that makes the map more interesting. It allows for some fun strategies I think.

[FutatsuNoOmoi]

  But here's a good question, why coudln't there be both play types that you can choose from, via map selection?

  And I agree with Something, the mining system should be player controlled, and even perhaps at the start a "Scroll of Miners," it would reduce redancy not seeing scroll of wealth at the start of 75% of the maps. What one the main qualities that made EotA unique from most other AoS maps, is player controlled strategy beyond the heros themselves.

[mianmian]

I like the Scroll of the Miner thing

Another thing though is on GLoom is extremly easy to backdoor obs compared to Storm.

[DarnYak]

I like the Scroll of the Miner thing :D

Seconded.

And I agree with Something

Just to clarify: Are you agreeing with yourself, or is someone completely seperate posting from your ip?

the mining system should be player controlled

Its meant to be automatic enough that newbies arne't totally fucked over becuase they aren't aware of it, but strongly reward player attention to the miners. Defending locations their mining is a big factor, also you get temporary control by selecting them (this may be a big buggy, still working on it) and ordering them elsewhere. So players should be able to optimize their use, but they wont sit around idle if ignored.

DarnYak

[FutatsuNoOmoi]

  Shees, people these days don't care much to look into possibilities, huh? Analytical enough to notice the similar IP, however you didn't take to notice, my style is a little bit different, I indent my paragraphs, and also edit a lot because I tend to not proof read my posts. Yes, we're two different people, but on the same connection. ^_^

  The whole making it automatic is like ruining the fun of bikes, by putting training wheels on... If people really want to learn without getting demolished they can simply just host it single player, or add bots and experiment. Even if automatic, at the very least miner creation should come out of player economy.

  You're right, it was easier to backdoor in Gloomreap Mire with obelisks, which gave it more intensity than Stormwail Peak a lot of times, which gave it more enjoyable play if you ask me.

[DarnYak]

  Shees, people these days don't care much to look into possibilities, huh? Analytical enough to notice the similar IP, however you didn't take to notice, my style is a little bit different,

Just asking. I acutaly noticed your same ips on accident while trying to find out how to search for posts by ip. And style isn't exactly impossible to fake.

The whole making it automatic is like ruining the fun of bikes, by putting training wheels on... If people really want to learn without getting demolished they can simply just host it single player, or add bots and experiment. Even if automatic, at the very least miner creation should come out of player economy.

EotA is pretty infamous for being extremely harsh on newbies, and I don't deny trying to make it more newbie friendly in anyway possible that doesn't destroy gameplay. Expecting people to go play the game single player a bunch first to understand the game is unrealistic and would make EotA's already small playerbase even harder to grow.

And I expect someone to decry this and say i'm trying to Dota'ize the map. I won't deny I'd like to see EotA be somewhat popular, but that isn't my concern at the moment. The concern is there's a critical mass of players required in order for a multiplayer game to survive, and I consider EotA tetering on that line with how difficult it is to find or start games. Double the amount of people playing EotA and it may not be a giant concern, but for now its the top priority to attract people. And no, there is no concious effort to make EotA anything like DotA (nor do i understand the reasoning behind these claims), I dont even consider EotA to be in competition with DotA as we have completely different focuses.

DarnYak

[FutatsuNoOmoi]

  Getting a player mass is an objective after all, you need players to play... However, simply going for it is simply a futile effort with this being an AoS type map and DotA being an AoS map... I also don't believe that since 1.11 there's been more players because of Gloomreap Mire being the way it is... I would have to say the addition of Undead is the reasoning for that part with its unique type of play, and providing more heros to play.

  Also, getting a playerbase, should not be so focussed into changing the map to be "newb friendly," it should be more geared to the community trying to reach out to players willing to help and well simply trying to encourage people to play it more...

[DarnYak]

 However, simply going for it is simply a futile effort with this being an AoS type map and DotA being an AoS map...

You imply that people will only play one map at a time, which is something I completely dissagree with, espeicaly when they offer two very different approaches to the AoS experience. I fully believe that people can and will play DotA some/a lot, but fully willing to play alternate maps as long as their appealing, and in fact this is what many EotA players do. I'm not trying to drive people away from DotA in the slightest, I'm just trying ot provide a fun, unique, replayable map option that I hope people won't be averse to.

I also don't believe that since 1.11 there's been more players because of Gloomreap Mire being the way it is... I would have to say the addition of Undead is the reasoning for that part with its unique type of play, and providing more heros to play.

I don't dispute this one bit. However, there have been many complaints in the past about the design of Stormwail. Specificly the lag (due to number of spawns), the confusing map (most people get used to it, but still), the raw size, and the obelisks crap you need to know about. Gloomreap when it was designed was meant to be Stormwail lite, with fewer lanes, less spawns, and a less complicated objective, but large enough to retain terrain driven strategy and the large war feel. So I hope to use Gloomreap to help address concerns some players have while retaining some or most of the strategical aspects from Stormwail.

Also, getting a playerbase, should not be so focussed into changing the map to be "newb friendly," it should be more geared to the community trying to reach out to players willing to help and well simply trying to encourage people to play it more...

Easier said then done, unfortunately. I'd like to emphasize that newbie friendly isn't the same as...well, noob friendly. I'm willing to design things to reach out and extend its hand to newbies to say "here, let me help you come to understand the map", but not destroy the tactics/strategy/gameplay that makes EotA what it is. I don't feel I've failed to do this yet (although I did get a lot of hatred for my changes to spawn towers in 1.07 or 1.08)

One of my objectives in focusing on Gloomreap is actualy to verify that I've done this properly. I want to make sure that focusing on defending/killing the harvesters actually pays off, and if its not working, how can it be fixed. My suspecion at the moment is that nobody pays attention to them, thus the whole thing seems pointless, and in fact pretty random. But originaly nobody payed attention to Obelisks on Stormwail, and many peopel still don't, and I hope that people's approach to Gloomreap will change in the same way before long.

DarnYak

[FutatsuNoOmoi]

  I don't know if you realize this, but some of the people of the clan host with the game name "EotA>DotA", and a few people I've seen did not like their encounter with Clan EotA... People have suggested that I host it with "EotA>DotA" and I stated that it only creates rivalry that only hurts the player base size, and also addressed a hoster of the game name.

[Something]

I can go whole games expecting to cross miners on Gloomreap, but instead see none.

When I look for them, they are hard to find.

[Emufarmers]

EotA definitely has a huge learning curve, and as you add more and more layers of control and management, it seems like there's a risk that it'll get even harder for new players to learn. I mean, with the hero skills, obelisks, generators, crystal, spawns, and formerly upgrades as well, EotA is an incredibly deep map. That complexity is one of the best things about it, but it also means that the game can be very overwhelming for a new player expecting a cookie-cutter AoS. (Mind you, EotA actually is nicer on new players in that you won't die because you blinked in the middle of a battle, but the sheer scale of the map is still daunting.)

I don't know if you realize this, but some of the people of the clan host with the game name "EotA>DotA", and a few people I've seen did not like their encounter with Clan EotA... People have suggested that I host it with "EotA>DotA" and I stated that it only creates rivalry that only hurts the player base size, and also addressed a hoster of the game name.

People have been using that game name for years: It does sometimes seem to bring in more players (I use it myself, sometimes), although it also attracts people expecting who get confused because they were expecting something like DotA. I know people hosting some of the other lesser-known AoSs sometimes use "Tired of DotA? Try [whatever]!"; do you think that better appeals to the person who's bored with DotA without promising something similar to DotA?

[DarnYak]

  I don't know if you realize this, but some of the people of the clan host with the game name "EotA>DotA", and a few people I've seen did not like their encounter with Clan EotA...

Of course I'm aware of this. Doesn't mean i approve of or encourage it in anyway. I don't think i've EVER supported that game name, except possibly when eota first came out and dota was under guinsoo's moronic hand. Just becuase some people insist on putting EotA in compeition doesnt mean I do, or that every player will.

As for Clan EotA, see my previous comment about "easier said then done". Most players of any map are more interested in showing off their uberness then acting as salesman after all.

DarnYak

[Demongod86]

Frankly the biggest complaint I have about EotA is the 2 FPS I get at the end of the game. There are definitely some bugs in it that make it nigh unplayable at a certain point. As for the deep and daunting issues, frankly I think that if you're not trying to power up your power-uppable spell(s), I don't know what the heck you're doing. With infiltrator, you can power up the big backstab of death, or the mines of blow-up-an-entire-attack-wave.

If EotA could run smoothly when there are 10000 units on the map (hi, Stormwail), then it'd literally be a perfect game.

That said, whatever happened to unit upgrades and the talents you could research? IMO that was probably the biggest EotA-defining aspect of the game.

[FutatsuNoOmoi]

  You know, if you were to launch a campaign, and the community cooperated, of people hosting games and intentionally losing... It's an experiment Something and I implimented on Starcraft to get games popular enough to get some people to start hosting it, which was intentionally lose... Yes, it did work. I must state that it's not the complexity that people won't give it a chance after it, it's just most players are poor sports and flametastic, them losing is enough to drive them away. ^_^

  Also if you want to make a "newb friendly" version, perhaps you should consider making a completely seperate version that is "newb friendly" EotA Twilite? ^_^

[Emufarmers]

As for the deep and daunting issues, frankly I think that if you're not trying to power up your power-uppable spell(s), I don't know what the heck you're doing. With infiltrator, you can power up the big backstab of death, or the mines of blow-up-an-entire-attack-wave.

I don't think that's a good thing: Part of what makes DotA inaccessible to newbies is the need to have a perfect strat and item build for every hero; I like that EotA is focused more around powering up yourself and your team in the broad sense than stacking agility to have a super-insta-hyper-mega-death ability.

If EotA could run smoothly when there are 10000 units on the map (hi, Stormwail), then it'd literally be a perfect game.

Couldn't spawns shut off for a lane once all the enemy buildings for its side are destroyed? Or the spawn locations furthest back could stop, but the ones closer to the fray could keep spawning?

That said, whatever happened to unit upgrades and the talents you could research? IMO that was probably the biggest EotA-defining aspect of the game.

Check Yak's announcement.

Also if you want to make a "newb friendly" version, perhaps you should consider making a completely seperate version that is "newb friendly" EotA Twilite? ^_^

That sounds nice, but I think it would be very dangerous: The lite version might just replace the regular version.

[Mills]

However, simply going for it is simply a futile effort with this being an AoS type map and DotA being an AoS map...

I agree, DotA and EotA are pretty much the exact same map. Thank you for enlightening us with this useless comment.

Also, getting a playerbase, should not be so focussed into changing the map to be "newb friendly," it should be more geared to the community trying to reach out to players willing to help and well simply trying to encourage people to play it more...

We have tried to be nice and host friendly games for players to learn in, the only problem is people refuse to learn and believe they know what they are doing because they played DotA. Seeing how DotA and EotA are both an AoS and basically the same this should work, but sadly the people still don't know what they are doing and will complain about everything. Solution: Not wasting our time teaching people who have no desire to learn.

You know, if you were to launch a campaign, and the community cooperated, of people hosting games and intentionally losing... It's an experiment Something and I implimented on Starcraft to get games popular enough to get some people to start hosting it, which was intentionally lose... Yes, it did work. I must state that it's not the complexity that people won't give it a chance after it, it's just most players are poor sports and flametastic, them losing is enough to drive them away. ^_^

I've had pub teams and me win against pub stumps, and winning didn't help at all. The complaints still came up about large and confusing map, lag due to units, and less focus on the hero than other AoS maps. Winning or losing isn't going to change those complaints, but rather the map itself and Yak who makes it. Yes, I know Yak is making it better and solving these problems, I'm not accusing him of driving players away.

As for the deep and daunting issues, frankly I think that if you're not trying to power up your power-uppable spell(s), I don't know what the heck you're doing.

I'll be trying to win the game, have fun losing with your oh so easily avoidable spells.

If EotA could run smoothly when there are 10000 units on the map (hi, Stormwail), then it'd literally be a perfect game.

If you're going to complain about this, go complain to Blizzard.

[Pheonick]

Is DotA more noob friendly than EotA? Depends... a while back I hadn't played DotA since the release of TfT (when every version i played was the most horrible reproduction) so I stopped playing it completely. A short while after that i started playing EotA: Exodus (then being the only version without the suffix). Then I walked into EotA: Twilight thinking tp play the same hero defence, instead i find a map where skills are customised well and with - shock - attribute variables! It's still a rarely used aspect and it amazed me back then. The size of the map and the heroes were also great (first hero played - AA ). It was instantly one of my favourite AoS maps and also restored my faith in the genre.
Now with that little walk down history lane gone and by, after a while, hearing the clannies talk about playing DotA and due to its sheer popularity I wondered how the map turned out and looked towards playing it again...and lo and behold: 'NO DL/NOOBS'. So I found out about the DL site and downloaded. The sheer array of acryonyms the new DotA was daunting enough, but then I entered a game and had my first encounter with the ping/location tools. I despaired. The location tool i found particularily apalling, one does not go onto bnet to be discriminated upon location.

In summary, I found DotA a significantly more newbie discouraging map as opposed to EotA simply being more demanding in terms of tactics/strategy.
But on that note, the pub stomps are really quite a retarded thing to do. Its not fun being pinned against a group of experienced players. Especially when your team isn't willing/ready to learn.

Down with the pub stomp! Up with intentional loss! Also any feedback on the ghost hero would be appreciated, a simple 'Nice' or even 'OMGTEHSUX' would do.

Oh, and to be relevant to the thread; Gloomreap 1.11 gameplay is funky, I would not want to go back the the ob system after having played with the gloomite. It's fresh, it's hip, it's now in 1.11!

[BoBoTheBum]

...is fine the way it is, fun, laid back, and most importantly:

Different. Why should it be obs? I mean, isn't one of the points of the different maps is the different routes to victory (obs, tears, etc.)?

[FutatsuNoOmoi]

The funny thing I see is, it seems people are ignoring the question, why we can't just simply have both game types of Gloomreap Mire available?

[Pheonick]

The question of this thread is what is your preferred style, not 'Should we have a choice of which genre to play for Gloomreap'. While that would be interesting, I have not seen many people go for Gloomreap over Stormwail for obelisk control gameplay, but for the Gloomreap map itself. Did your friends just prefer a style that they were more comfortable with and knew? Or did they have valid reasons and criticisms towards the Gloomite style?

[FutatsuNoOmoi]

  I created the poll only for additional perspective... Also, reasons of preference in this case are irrelivant. They liked it because they liked it, until reasons are given why there shouldn't be both available to play, I don't think reasons are needed.

[BoBoTheBum]

I've got a reason.

Total map size.