Gargoyle totally imbalanced now

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Pheonick · #26 Post by **Pheonick** » July 7th, 2007, 5:07 am

Tehw00tz wrote:Stone Throw, Grand Rune, Degeneration, Caustic Breath, and Mortal Strike.

Don't forget Alexander has cross slash now and siphon glyph damages in an AoE and drains mana. I know you probably didn't feel like listing all the damage spells, but it would've helped your argument more.

#27 Post by **Tehw00tz** » July 7th, 2007, 5:18 am

I was just keepin' it simple, but thanks anyway.

Demongod86 · #28 Post by **Demongod86** » July 7th, 2007, 8:35 am

Yes, one for each of them, compared to garg's swoop, ravenous dive, ultimate, and aberration makes a unit into an absolute monster.

Face it: we have too many DD abilities on a hero that ignores terrain. All of those other heroes are slow and rather immobile. Garg can simply fly over terrain and escape.

His strength *must* be lowered in order to account for the fact that he flies. As of the moment, there is *nothing* to penalize flyers. In enmity campaign, another aos, nets against flying heroes cost 100 for 4, and lasted for about 5 seconds on flyers, all of whom had rather low HP ratings, meaning if there were two people with nets, you were flat out dead. Here, nets work on anyone and for the same amount of time, but there is *no* item that says "if you're a flying hero, if I invest in this item, you're dead no matter what you do".

Discombobulator · #29 Post by **Discombobulator** » July 7th, 2007, 10:57 am

Don't nerf his strength, that'll make him another harpy. Just make him slower and nerf his innate.

Fierach · #30 Post by **Fierach** » July 7th, 2007, 11:09 am

Dude.

I picked up GRAVEL one game with him.

And the Collossus wasn't outleveled or anything.

When I can do that, you know something is wrong.

Something · #31 Post by **Something** » July 7th, 2007, 12:13 pm

Nerf Grim Hag!

Why.. She get's too many direct damage abilities. With swoop, bladerain, and chaos rift.. She's a beast alone, being able to slaughter army and hurt heros.

If that's not enough, lets talk about blind, her natural evasion, ability to fly, a mildly annoying blacklash, and not to mention how fast her attack gets with little focus into it! Crit gloves, anyone?

Low life? Naaah! That's only really a problem if you let it be!

#32 Post by **Tehw00tz** » July 7th, 2007, 12:46 pm

oh hay every1 i dont liek this rk guy nerf him

Dekar · #33 Post by **Dekar** » July 7th, 2007, 12:58 pm

OMG this DK guy, he has this speed aura, impossible to run away and also this really high nuke that makes it impossible to heal me!

#34 Post by **Tehw00tz** » July 7th, 2007, 1:13 pm

Dekar wrote:OMG this DK guy, he has this speed aura, impossible to run away and also this really high nuke that makes it impossible to heal me!

wtf u cant heal? wtf yak

Dekar · #35 Post by **Dekar** » July 7th, 2007, 1:46 pm

Uhm, as I havent posted anything useful here yet.

Remove healing from the unit buff, decrease Drive damage to picked unit and maybe reduces the hold time a little bit, and she ( WTF garg is not male!

) should be fine.

I have to admit I havent played against a good garg yet, though.

Discombobulator · #36 Post by **Discombobulator** » July 7th, 2007, 1:58 pm

Fierach wrote:Dude.

I picked up GRAVEL one game with him.

And the Collossus wasn't outleveled or anything.

When I can do that, you know something is wrong.

Gravel should not have automatic immunity to dive.

Fierach · #37 Post by **Fierach** » July 7th, 2007, 2:07 pm

Wasn't saying that he should.

I was saying that as a hero, everything that garg has is way too overpowered.

He has the ability to fly and ignore terrain.

He can AoE, deal damage to troops. Terra Smash does full damage to towers. He can slow. He can pick up almost every other hero he comes across with ease with dive. Dive also does AoE. He can lifesteal. He is strength-orientated, gives people more incentive to stack him with armor and strength. He has amazing survivability and ability to stop creeps. He has a ranged attack.

BLUEPOWERVAN · #38 Post by **BLUEPOWERVAN** » July 7th, 2007, 3:08 pm

Discombobulator wrote:
Fierach wrote:Dude.

I picked up GRAVEL one game with him.

And the Collossus wasn't outleveled or anything.

When I can do that, you know something is wrong.
Gravel should not have automatic immunity to dive.

Ascendant should not have an automatic immunity to AoO, lunge, hamstring, charge, acid shield damage reduction, on and on and on

#39 Post by **Emufarmers** » July 7th, 2007, 6:15 pm

Gravel should have immunity to dive unless the Ascendant is willing to go all-out on strength; if "she" does that, then she should do so at the detriment of other areas (i.e. Strength shouldn't be the Gargoyle's primary ability, or dive should be reworked to have a different requirement for pickups).

Pheonick · #40 Post by **Pheonick** » July 8th, 2007, 11:14 am

Ok...apart from the posts going off topic, almost every new post i've seen here has been repeating points already made.

He just needs a slight decrease in natural strength and nuke damage, aberration needing fixing/replacing and then he should be fine.

The arguments for imbalance are mainly focused around his being a strength/flyer hero. If the flying bothers you so much take icespinner if you're on creep side or otherwise just buy nets. Why is being strength based such a problem? He can be made still to start with naturally lower hp and be reduced in strength next version and then that won't be a problem. Complain about his ability to take damage and you may aswell complain about RK, Gravel, Reaver, Scarab, BP. Then it goes further saying it's not just that he's hard to kill with hp alone but flying gives him tactical superiority (not in those words, obviously). I'm sorry, I didn't give a damn about these arguments condsidering how many armour/health built harpies i've played against. Blind and backlash are amazing especially when used together, the enemy can barely attack and is taking a risk with every spellcast. She has 2 AoE damages spells, DoT perhaps but being such usually allows for a greater maximum damage. Dive is slightly better than swoop, depending on what you use it for, but they are both decently damaging interrupts.

Garg just needs a general respeccing and slight nerfing. Maybe changing dive to agi modified aswell and reducing terra smash building damage. Then he should be balanced enough.

#41 Post by **Tehw00tz** » July 8th, 2007, 11:23 am

Is this how much trust you have in Yak? It's not like he hasn't had a million other complaints about this guy. Abberation is getting nerfed and so is Plight.

Stop complaining.

Pheonick · #42 Post by **Pheonick** » July 8th, 2007, 11:30 am

Tehw00tz wrote:Is this how much trust you have in Yak? It's not like he hasn't had a million other complaints about this guy. Abberation is getting nerfed and so is Plight.

Stop complaining.

I hope this wasn't directed at me.

I'm not complaining, I'm trying to stop people spewing out the same complaints time after time by summarising the thread.

BLUEPOWERVAN · #43 Post by **BLUEPOWERVAN** » July 8th, 2007, 12:26 pm

Pheonick wrote:
Tehw00tz wrote:Is this how much trust you have in Yak? It's not like he hasn't had a million other complaints about this guy. Abberation is getting nerfed and so is Plight.

Stop complaining.
I hope this wasn't directed at me.

I'm not complaining, I'm trying to stop people spewing out the same complaints time after time by summarising the thread.

Read the body of your own post, and try to appreciate the irony.

It's a post about Plight being imbalanced, obviously 20 posts into it, a lot of the material is going to be rehashing -- including your own post. If you don't want to read any more about Plight flying and having high strength, tons of aoe and tons of hero killing ability, I suggest you just stop reading the thread.

Bottom line, don't walk around with your forum cop hat on, accusing people of doing exactly what you are doing.

#44 Post by **Tehw00tz** » July 8th, 2007, 3:03 pm

I was just going to close the thread because Yak has probally rebalanced Plight already along with Abberation (Dive has no real problem, you get picked up by it, your fault) and I've only seen 2 posts concerning how to rebalance Plight. Most of the other ones are points why he isn't that powerful(Which are helpful) or complaints(which aren't helpful) about how someone get beaten by the imba gargoyle and he needs to be rebalanced, if he needs to be rebalanced put a suggestion in your post, not just "ABBERATION NEEDS A NERF BECAUSE I WONT PICK THE CORRECT HERO TO COUNTER IT"

The new version with the new and deproved Plight will get here as soon as Yak is done. Don't forget he has to get rid of Stormwail, make Felgrove, test it (I'm sure some of you guys remember the never ending stream of tests for .11), finalize it and release it.

#45 Post by **DarnYak** » July 8th, 2007, 3:38 pm

Tehw00tz wrote:I was just going to close the thread because Yak has probally rebalanced Plight already along with Abberation (Dive has no real problem, you get picked up by it, your fault)

Just fyi, if its not in the change notes, it hasn't happened yet. Rebalancing is usualy the last thing I do before a release because it gives people the most time to comment/find counters/etc. I've also been taking a break so I haven't had a chance to acutaly see aberation in action.

Tehw00tz wrote:(I'm sure some of you guys remember the never ending stream of tests for .11)

Talents combined with a change to the underlying casting code basicly demands retesting of every single skill for every hero this next version, so expect some big tests =P Not going to put an estimated date out there yet thought.

DarnYak

Discombobulator · #46 Post by **Discombobulator** » July 8th, 2007, 3:50 pm

Fierach wrote:Wasn't saying that he should.

I was saying that as a hero, everything that garg has is way too overpowered.

He has the ability to fly and ignore terrain.

He can AoE, deal damage to troops. Terra Smash does full damage to towers. He can slow. He can pick up almost every other hero he comes across with ease with dive. Dive also does AoE. He can lifesteal. He is strength-orientated, gives people more incentive to stack him with armor and strength. He has amazing survivability and ability to stop creeps. He has a ranged attack.

His AoE ability is inferior to many heroes'. Several other heroes have both survivability and creep stopping power, and people who need more skill love to complain about them.

Ascendant should not have an automatic immunity to AoO, lunge, hamstring, charge, acid shield damage reduction, on and on and on

http://24.208.26.163/EotAWiki/index.php ... apping_Net

Demongod86 · #47 Post by **Demongod86** » July 8th, 2007, 9:29 pm

Pheonick wrote:Ok...apart from the posts going off topic, almost every new post i've seen here has been repeating points already made.

He just needs a slight decrease in natural strength and nuke damage, aberration needing fixing/replacing and then he should be fine.

The arguments for imbalance are mainly focused around his being a strength/flyer hero. If the flying bothers you so much take icespinner if you're on creep side or otherwise just buy nets. Why is being strength based such a problem? He can be made still to start with naturally lower hp and be reduced in strength next version and then that won't be a problem. Complain about his ability to take damage and you may aswell complain about RK, Gravel, Reaver, Scarab, BP. Then it goes further saying it's not just that he's hard to kill with hp alone but flying gives him tactical superiority (not in those words, obviously). I'm sorry, I didn't give a damn about these arguments condsidering how many armour/health built harpies i've played against. Blind and backlash are amazing especially when used together, the enemy can barely attack and is taking a risk with every spellcast. She has 2 AoE damages spells, DoT perhaps but being such usually allows for a greater maximum damage. Dive is slightly better than swoop, depending on what you use it for, but they are both decently damaging interrupts.

Garg just needs a general respeccing and slight nerfing. Maybe changing dive to agi modified aswell and reducing terra smash building damage. Then he should be balanced enough.

Okay, genius, let's use a real life example...

RK, Gravel, etc... are what we would call TANKS. You know, those SLOW, CUMBERSOME, but VERY DURABLE pieces of artillery? A harpy is what we would call an AIRPLANE (notice how they both fly?). If you hit a tank with an air-to-air missile, I can bet you that it would be in pretty decent shape to keep going. If you hit an airplane with a missile, you have one wasted airplane.

The bottom line? You either get maneuverability, or survivability. One, or the other. RK, Gravel, Scarab, etc... are all slow as shit. If they're in a bad position and getting focused, it's not a question of if but when (unless it's RK...he's practically invulnerable). But with a garg, hey look, he's getting focused, so LET'S JUST FLY BEHIND THE LINES OR OVER THE NEAREST CLIFF!

I hate to keep stressing enmity campaign, but as Fier and I both come from that background, I'm going to bring it up again.

In Enmity Campaign, the flying heroes HAD to keep flying around and in general staying out of harm's way, because if by some unfortunate circumstance they were caught (and air nets did that quite well), THEY PROBABLY WERE DEAD FROM 100% HP BEFORE THE NET WORE OFF.

The only hero that didn't comply to this on the dot (also a garg model, wouldn't you know it) was a melee hero, and in enmity campaign, the moment the creeps needed to acquire a new target, THEY FOCUSED THE FLYING HERO. Flying heroes literally were at the top of every computer controlled unit's shitlist. And the towers? They flat out stopped firing at whatever they were firing at and instantly hit the flier.

You see, in Enmity Campaign, for the advantage the flying hero got simply for being able to hop the terrain (and take note--THEY WERE NOT IMMUNE TO ANY HERO TECHNIQUES BECAUSE THEY FLEW), they sure as hell had to make damned good use of it, or their flying status proved to be their UNDOING.

In EotA, flying is STRICTLY an advantage. It renders a flying hero immune to half or more of the HERO spells in EotA simply because, and the nets work equally well on ANYBODY. If they worked for 10 seconds on a flying hero, then flying would have a drawback. As of the moment, flying heroes have NO disadvantages elsewhere for being able to escape battle on command.

If that's not an imbalance, I have no idea what is.

#48 Post by **Tehw00tz** » July 8th, 2007, 11:11 pm

So your saying add a buyable 10 second stun and weaken all flying heroes?
I still have no real problem with Plight, I've yet to see a game where he was wtf imba, and I've played lots as him and lots against him, and it wasn't against a noob/leaver/computer. It was against a person who has been playing for a long time. The only real problem I have is that Shimmer gets rid off ALL spell effects on him, ethrael binding, ice lance etc etc

BLUEPOWERVAN · #49 Post by **BLUEPOWERVAN** » July 8th, 2007, 11:46 pm

Ascendant should not have an automatic immunity to AoO, lunge, hamstring, charge, acid shield damage reduction, on and on and on

http://24.208.26.163/EotAWiki/index.php ... apping_Net[/quote]

Maybe you didnt check your own link, but trapping net works for 2 seconds on heroes.

[BTW, please list the MANY heroes which have aoe superior to Plight]

So, just to run down that list, it's possible to net someone for 2 seconds, then charge and stun them for a second or two... or you could net them, and have acid shield reduce the heroe's melee damage for 2 seconds... or, you could net them, and hope that somehow when he is teleported during the net, he lands close enough for you to get off either lunge or hamstring (you are lucky to get off one, and neither will kill him, or even do as much damage as you'd heal with a single dive).... good luck trying to get off an aoo in 2 seconds when you drop out of stealth from netting and he just teleported randomly... maybe you have a chance if you are lucky and they are slow to react...

I wasn't really complaining the spell immunity was game-breaking -- in fact, I was just countering someone else's assertion that gravel shouldn't be immune to one of Plight's skills.

Nets are expensive, maybe worthwhile vs harpy because you can actually kill a weakened harpy in those 2 seconds, but not vs Plight. Vs any other character, you can just buy a skull and not only trap them for far longer than 2seconds but deal lots of damage.

I don't see how you can say it's worthwhile for people to defend Plight from complaints, but not for people to complain about him. I don't feel its important to suggest specific changes (personally I think a str nerf, some reworking of aberration and maybe other things, depending on however yak feels is closest to the concept), because yak isn't going to implement things exactly how anybody wants it but him -- and by complaining about what makes him too good, it's an obvious implication about what should be changed.

I don't understand why you think that playing ice spinner makes you the instant counter to Plight either -- it's like netting any other hero. In fact I find ice spinner weak to Plight, because she has low hp and her large body makes her especially vulnerable to be screwed by the dive-carry into friendly creeps maneuver.

Demongod86 · #50 Post by **Demongod86** » July 9th, 2007, 12:07 am

Tehw00tz wrote:So your saying add a buyable 10 second stun and weaken all flying heroes?
I still have no real problem with Plight, I've yet to see a game where he was wtf imba, and I've played lots as him and lots against him, and it wasn't against a noob/leaver/computer. It was against a person who has been playing for a long time. The only real problem I have is that Shimmer gets rid off ALL spell effects on him, ethrael binding, ice lance etc etc

Not 10 second stun, 10 second immobilize--which would also let AoO trigger fully.

Once again, if you haven't seen a game with plight owning face, just go to any pubby where it's a relatively even match and watch plight own face. Between the terrasmash/ravenous dive combo to player kill and aberration to turn aboms into LOLmonsters and hell fury as a sort of wannabe grand rune, the only thing possibly lacking about plight is that his stonebeam skill is very lacking compared to all of his other WTFLOLIMBA skills.

And while there are some heroes with better straight up aoe damage, terrasmash is also a setup into a very easy pick up with ravenous dive due to the slow. I'm not sure any other hero in EotA currently has a "thunderclap" aoe ability, which is what terrasmash more or less is.

Frankly, I wouldn't be so pissed off about plight if he didn't FLY. If you put those spells on a ground hero like Alexander or Scarab, we wouldn't be having these issues. Heck, aside from aberration, such a hero would not be all that amazing. But the fact that he flies makes it far easier to do what he does, and until some DISADVANTAGE TO HAVING WINGS IS PRESENTED IN EOTA, PLIGHT=IMBA.

End of story.