AA and AM...

[BustroQuick]

You're forgetting the ethereal damage bonus.

[Pheonick]

Have people been taking into account the item factors? I assume all the examples are without the crystal staff or gloves of spell penetration changing around the values.
Also, enough of the mathcraft - Infernal Binding is just not used best as a standalone nuke, it is a spell that slows, disables attack and allows you to deal great amounts of damage with your physical attack and use highly efficient nuke combos. Learn it, live with it, play with it.

[Tehw00tz]

Uh.. I hate to break it to you, but Crystal Staff and Gloves of Evocation only increase spells that use... Evocation...

[mianmian]

Demon I know, but go level a AM to level 26, and do -s

I had 85 int so GG son GG

[kinguvspaz]

While I don't want to cause anyone to start flaming, or to backtrack very far in the topic. AA is still one of the more powerful heroes in the game, even after she was nerfed. Anyone can tell you that a skilled player can own you a number of builds with an AA. Personally I'm a fan of the Int+Meteor+Fam to late Haste or Heal (but not both skills, get either haste or heal to lvl 6) and on occasion I like to spice it up with Agi+Fam+Haste to late Meteor. Most people don't see the second one coming, and, although its difficult to pull of, when its executed effectively it is pretty dank. Though I may just have a lot of practice playing her.

AM on the other hand, is combo crowd control. Disabling heroes with the cloud + IB + combo from almost any hero on the creeps = ownage. Really, I can only think of one hero I wouldn't pair with the AM, and that's gravel, because his direct damage is physical. So a poorly timed IB negates one of the few Rock throws gravel can cast without potions.

[Strychnyne]

Meteor Swarm is for killing spawns, not heroes. If you get the Familliar then you can use Entangle VERY easily. Just the it to level 5 and it'll use it on the hero you are attacking. It's that simple. Starfall is a bit iffy, but I've gotten used to it. Just keep it at level 5! Ethereal Heal is SO good now that it finally got its Int modifier. You can heal a BP to full with level two for god's sake. Mass Haste is still good unless you have to face someone with dispell. Ice Wall is still one of my favourite spells in the game. Saved more than obelisk I can tell you. As for accuracy, get Meteor Swarm level one and you can target it perfectly. A nice interupt I must say.

AM's bonus is the ethereal factor of Bind. I rarely get it over level one. Combo it with Smite and you have serious damage. At levl five of Mindfog or Haunt you can either permanently stop all spells in your lane or take out a tower completely. Haunt, with its cool down, is RIDICULOUS. You can potentially stop an entire push, get that stun you need to finish the hero. Black arrow is easily micro managed, even at later levels, to do maximum damage on all spawns. If you want hero killing, it easily combos with Bind. She is versatile and deadly. Plus her AI kicks ass. Not to mention that Fog saves you from an unwitting AoO. VERY useful.

[Hammel]

I've experienced Meteor Swarm not to stun heroes, but I may be wrong.
Familiar gets Entangle already at level 4, level 5 is some weak Feedback.
When a hero is entangled (or disabled by other means), you can also use Meteor Swarm for killing him with great efficiency.

And no, you cannot heal a lategame BP with Ethereal Healing 2 for full health, not without godlike Int. Level 3 or 4 are enough though for most of the HP...

[Demongod86]

The only gay thing is that you can't use ethereal healing on yourself. Oracle's healing WILL heal her when she needs it, RK can rune shield himself forever as well.

Frankly, I don't like the fact that some heroes have "forced teamwork" spells built in. I think every hero needs to be a self-sufficient package that works better with teammates, but is not dependent on them.

Also, meteors don't stun now.

[mianmian]

I've experienced Meteor Swarm not to stun heroes, but I may be wrong.

Correct, like demon said meteors dont stun anymore.

Now, to the whole Etheral haling not affecting yourself, its mostly for balance reasons, being that its the best heal in the game, you would literally never have to leave a lane, ever, even level one heals an absurd amount.

[kinguvspaz]

I agree with demongod. Every hero should be self sufficient and unable to do teamwork. Also, there should be a penalty for dying and a bonus for killing a lot of heroes in a row. The item system should also be changed to recipes, instead of the +# modifier system.

But I digress.

As a request, when talking about balancing heroes on either United Creeps or Elven Battalion, please refrain from referencing the new Grim Brigade heroes, which we all know still need work.

Lastly, no hero requires you to use teamwork. They can all be used as a "self-sufficient package". It just may be harder to use some that way than others.

[Demongod86]

I've experienced Meteor Swarm not to stun heroes, but I may be wrong.

Correct, like demon said meteors dont stun anymore.

Now, to the whole Etheral haling not affecting yourself, its mostly for balance reasons, being that its the best heal in the game, you would literally never have to leave a lane, ever, even level one heals an absurd amount.

You mean like Oracle's healing healing an entire push, allied heroes, herself and all?

And RK being able to keep alive allied heroes and himself indefinitely?

Kinguvspaz, I said that every hero should be a self-sufficient package, not have some gaping hole like not being able to be healed by THEIR OWN DAMN SPELL.

Tell me, how the hell does it make sense that the AA can cast that eth healing on another hero, but not herself?

[Hammel]

If she could, you would cry for the nerf hammer... -.-

Btw, being shifted to the ethereal plane can be confusing, and then you might fail to cast the healing effect (or end up with a damaging effect), so the AA is intelligent enough not to try. Reason good enough for you?

And I wonder where you see a "gaping hole" in AA's skills... she's one of the best-rounded heroes, she's got a skill for every situation (apart from tanking, what absolutely doesnt fit the idea of her), so where is the whole? -.-

[aegir ravenking]

One ethereal heal change I don't like is not being able to heal the poor little spawns, it was fun watching the leading footman get raped for a bit, then going ethereal forcing the creeps to spread thier attacking damage out.

Then the footman came back, fully healed, and half the time right next to the axethower.

Goodtimes, goodtimes.

[mianmian]

You mean like Oracle's healing healing an entire push, allied heroes, herself and all?

Nagas heal dosent heal remotly as much as Etheral healing (to a single target) Even at level 6, so GG there.

As to RK with Shell, its not that bug, at most each cast is 666ish per cast, thats a lot of mana for indefinietly, also it dosent stack 100% so... ?

[kinguvspaz]

Rune Shell's limit of protection as the number of casts approaches infinity is twice what one cast will protect.

Allow me to reiterate, demongod: STOP COMPARING ESTABLISHED HEROES TO NEW ONES THAT ARE KNOWN TO NEED BALANCING.

And that isn't a gap in her abilities. There are plenty of other heroes who can't heal themselves. Its called balance. If every hero had its cake and could eat it too, the game would turn into a joke. But not a funny joke. A joke that made everyone frustrated. And suicidal.

EDIT: Think of the heroes as modes of transportation. Each one is a car, boat, plane, or sub: self sufficient, but with limitations. Some are even duckies (work as both cars and boats, but only about half as good as something dedicated to one thing). What you want is something out of a James Bond flick. Drives perfectly, is at home on the water, doesn't have a problem going under the water, and can fly itself out of a tough situation. The lack of this Q designed device maintains balance. And we all know that the balance must be kept.

[Demongod86]

If she could, you would cry for the nerf hammer... -.-

Btw, being shifted to the ethereal plane can be confusing, and then you might fail to cast the healing effect (or end up with a damaging effect), so the AA is intelligent enough not to try. Reason good enough for you?

And I wonder where you see a "gaping hole" in AA's skills... she's one of the best-rounded heroes, she's got a skill for every situation (apart from tanking, what absolutely doesnt fit the idea of her), so where is the whole? -.-

Yet she has no problem doing this to other heroes?

The gaping hole is that if she's focused enough, she has to leave the lane despite having a healing skill.

Seriously what's the point of a HEALING spell if you can't heal the target that you would probably use it most on?

[Hammel]

The point is to make other people nearly invulnerable...

And yes, she has no problems casting it on other heroes, because then she doesnt change the plane and can create the healing effect with all the time in the world... apart from that it was shitty story to make you shut up... when you want to know how she knows that, when she never tries: her sister tried it to show the AA that it works, ended up undead and gave the AA the fault... or think of something else you like better, but ACCEPT IT -.-

[mianmian]

Seriously what's the point of a HEALING spell if you can't heal the target that you would probably use it most on?

Ill introduce a foreign concept to you Demon, I know its extremly complicatec but it'll explain quite a bit, here it is...

Teamwork

If you dont want to use team work, dont get it, nevermind that it fully heals the familiar.

[Poolman756]

Teamwork

If you dont want to use team work, dont get it, nevermind that it fully heals the familiar.

seconded

[Strychnyne]

Damn, no more stun? That sucks... Changes at least one of my builds anyways.

All this anger over healing. Firstly, why is your AA taking so much damage? She's an archer for god's sake, back the fuck up. Secondly, SINCE she's an archer, you can use a Healing Salve, that's 40gp, to heal yourself while you are behind the wall of creeps because you are a god damn ARCHER!

Scarab can't heal himself. AA is supposed to use it for teamwork purposes, as stated above. Heroes are not supposed to have no weaknesses, they are supposed to be played with your allies. That's one of the best things about EotA.

You say that there shouldn't be gaping holes in a heroes skills. I disagree. Firslty, none of the heroes in this game are unuseable without another hero to help them. None of them are. Secondly, any "hole" can be filled by another hero, creating this thing called TEAMWORK.

[FutatsuNoOmoi]

  Ethereal Binding doesn't need any boost, you can get some good attack speed and crittage, and you're techincally getting more damage than the cast itself. Not only that toss in an ice spinner, and you got a fucked up situation.

[kinguvspaz]

WHOAH! Everyone wait a second. FutatsuNoOmoi: You can't start by saying that a hero is usable without any other heroes to support it, then say that adding Ice Spinner gives you a "fucked up situation". Either you have teamwork, and can thus toss in an Ice Spinner; or you don't have teamwork, and thus have no Ice Spinner to speak of. You can't have both. Also, IIRC, a well timed AMS pot will negate Infernal Binding. (Use AMS Pot after you turn ethereal, but before the shades cast their spells.)

[FutatsuNoOmoi]

I was stating it as viable alone, and stating it being synergized with ice spinner, to really get acrossed it is not weak. It's called emphasis, you'll get over it.