EotA 2.0 desires

[DarnYak]

Since there's obviously some mild interst in people wanting a version of EotA completely restarted, I felt it would be interesting to ask what you all would be wanting to see in a EotA 2.0 should it ever be created. Would you be overjoyed at the Rune Knight being removed? Would you be dissapointed if Rockin' Arthas didn't make a return? Would you want to see neutral creeps added?

To start things off, I'll will open with two things i've been debating somewhat.

1) Heroes vs Classes

Heroes - A specific character in EotA lore that as a pre defined and very specific set of skills that can't be altered much by players. From game to game, a hero wouldn't change a hell of a lot. All current EotA heroes fall under this category.

Classes - A more generic unit (still a hero unit, obviously) but not really defined by any sort of story/lore. They would evolve over the course of the game into different skill sets and powers, and would be allowed to see multiple of a class per game. Evolving would be a sort of branching class change, such as a base wizard evolving into either a pure fire or pure frost mage, or a hybrid mix of the two, etc.

The primary difference betwen the two would be the way the characters develop throughout the game. Heroes would mostly focus on improving the skills they already have, but classes would primarily replace spells with new ones (ie, going frost at a branch might replace a fire spell with an ice one). I realize the explination may be a bit murky, but I haven't tried fleshing the idea out fully.

2) Squads

Most AoS's focus on exactly one unit - your hero. Some even give multiple heroes. Don't believe i've seen any that give you a small group to focus on, making it closer to standard wc3 melee. Talking about 6-8 units max, enough to add potential for micro and various multi unit strats. This would not nessairly be attathed to every hero, but (for instance) the Tact may come with 3-4 permanent hunts to help. These would be automaticly resupplied on death, possibly replacable with different then default unit types, etc. The primary point is these would NOT be heroes, and woul have few, if any, skills to activate. They'd be enough to add a level of micro, but shouldn't be enough to mire the player in crap to command.


Anyway, feel free to throw in comments or ideas or whatnot. I promise nothing, but am intersted to see what the handful of people still visitng these forums would like to see.

DarnYak

[2_Xtream]

WoW... Never thought to say it, but: Yak u are wrong!

Yak wrote: Heroes - A specific character in EotA lore that as a pre defined and very specific set of skills that can't be altered much by players. From game to game, a hero wouldn't change a hell of a lot. All current EotA heroes fall under this category.

Well, that's not true. Many heroes in EotA are pretty constumizable.
1. example: SB- in the beginning SB is usually a caster. But u cab easily make him to a tank or a hero hunter.

2. example: Grim Hag- Also u think she is just a hero hunter. But have u ever tried out a Grim hag as caster? Just increase her Int and u are able to take out a spawn in 3 sec.

And i could give u many more examples, to prove that heroes are pretty constumizeable. It's all about which skills u learn and which items u take.

[jamn455]

hmm, I dont like this whole micro management thing you are speaking of with squads. I suck at micro management that is why I came to play EotA.

Who do i look like, tox?

[Dekar]

Evolving would be a sort of branching class change, such as a base wizard evolving into either a pure fire or pure frost mage, or a hybrid mix of the two, etc.

As you cant skill every skill in a normal EotA game, it is partly right that all EotA heroes are "Classes", but I guess you think of a system with more than 4 normal skills and an Ultimate to choose from.

Well, as heroes and Classes are rather similiar in the EotA style, I like both as long as there is a certain space for customization.


Squads: Advent of the Zenith ( AotZ @ WC3C ) has a skelettal hero with ~8 normal units that automaticaly follow him around and which respawn after they are killed. The hero itself is rather weak to compensate. Not a bad idea, but only for a few heroes where it does fit.

[2_Xtream]

Hmm...

I have to agree with Dekar. In EotA Heroes = Classes. Each hero has certain ways to be played. And every hero has to do his job, but u can swap the job u want to do. So u can switch a tanker in to a caster. But the only problem in EotA is, that not ALL heroes can swap their class: The Divine wizard for example. I have never seen one as a tanker.

And to the squads: Well actually u got squats in eota...(see goblin shop). But well i think i am to only one who uses them... But at all it would be nice if some heroes (Tactician, Dread shaman and other support or leader heroes) would have a few own units. U could use them for ambush your enemy. Or if u are ranged u can use them to block an enemy melee hero from reaching u.

[Tehw00tz]

The Divine wizard for example. I have never seen one as a tanker.

And to the squads: Well actually u got squats in eota...(see goblin shop). But well i think i am to only one who uses them...

You haven't seen me play. Pretty much everyone on West uses the skulls, oozes ect ect. And how you build your hero is how you play the game, I've made Mage Scarabs, int Harpy str Harpy. The hero doesn't really matter considering the fact that EotA's levels don't stop at the 20's like DotA and AotZ, once you get anything to 65 it's gonna have the capabilities to tank, take on creeps and stuff like that.

Tact already has ambush which can give you a personal band of soldiers, and with the introduction of talents in .11, it turns to be a little more than that.

[DarnYak]

Yak wrote: Heroes - A specific character in EotA lore that as a pre defined and very specific set of skills that can't be altered much by players. From game to game, a hero wouldn't change a hell of a lot. All current EotA heroes fall under this category.

Well, that's not true. Many heroes in EotA are pretty constumizable.
1. example: SB- in the beginning SB is usually a caster. But u cab easily make him to a tank or a hero hunter.

2. example: Grim Hag- Also u think she is just a hero hunter. But have u ever tried out a Grim hag as caster? Just increase her Int and u are able to take out a spawn in 3 sec.

And i could give u many more examples, to prove that heroes are pretty constumizeable. It's all about which skills u learn and which items u take.

I'm aware of this, and specificly designed the game to attempt to be different like this. I believe at one point before EotA even reached public release we went through every hero and said "does this hero have multiple viable builds?". Variety is something i strongly like, and will do my damndest to keep in EotA and expand upon.

That said, each hero has 6 skills. Typically you'll get 4 of them, sometimes 5 of them. This means there will be at least some overlap betweeen any two builds, if not only a 1 skill difference. A large part of hero variety comes from the itemization and hero upgrades you pick, almost moreso then the skills. Compare this to the classes i'm talking about, where one build of a class has 6 completely different skills compared to another build of the class, and current EotA heroes DON'T change as much from game to game.

Secondly, part of my post was written with a different view of how I'd do heroes and skills. EotA 1 creates different builds by limitiing skill points. The fact that it forces people to make hero builds is cool, however in hindsight it ends up with the player having a more limited set of skills to use, which i don't feel is a good thing (despite that, it usuay does come out to 4 active skills per hero to use, which is pretty standard for AoS). In 2.0, the plan would be more likely that you get 5 inniate skills, and the main (only?) skill that would change fromg ame to game would be the ultimate. Hero advancement would still exist, just not in the same way it does now (primarily in talent like ways). In short, I want players to be able to have more abilities availible to them more of the time. I've even given some considration to a hack I read about a while ago that lets you delete the movement buttons to add more ability slots so we'd get more then 6 per hero, however I don't remember what side effects that had offhand.

hmm, I dont like this whole micro management thing you are speaking of with squads. I suck at micro management that is why I came to play EotA.

I recognize this, and it certainly wouldn't be for every hero. I'm more trying to feel how people would take it if SOME heroes had support like this. And yes, some heroes have it already due to summons, but atm most summons are designed to be more throw away then permanent control. Rue's a big exception, he's meant to have his guards micro'd.

And to the squads: Well actually u got squats in eota...(see goblin shop).

They exist currently, which was intended. The difference is they're more of an exception rather then a norm.


Glad to be seeing feedback on this, but at the same time I haven't heard any of you throw in what you'd like to be seeing in a 2.0.

DarnYak

[layzie86988]

I'd like to see a hybrid of heroes and classes - evolving heroes. I like heroes because they ensure individuality - only one hero of that type on the map at any given time. I like classes because they ensure individualization - you and I may have the same class, but your build tends to be slightly different from mine according to our preferences (assuming classes are balanced).

I propose a system of branching hero paths where each hero chosen in the beginning represents a base class and as the hero gains levels and achieves certain milestones, the player can choose to evolve that hero to a more specialized version of that base class. The player's hero still retains character/lore, but his skillsets can vary a great deal with evolution as long as they fit that character.

I know how difficult this can be from a design perspective, but I'd still like to see it...

[2_Xtream]

Ohh,

Then i'd like to see new items with less upgrades. Since this game has over 500 items, i think i makes brutish lag in the world editor, or? I think u can make it upon 3 instead of 5 upgrades. But add instead more items. Like main-hand things: weapons for melee, staffs for casters...

And also a decreased map-size. I speak about rremoving Kedge, Mire and Candleburg. And make own maps with them. So people can host the map they want to play. I hope this is going to prevent lag and loading time.

Well i like also to see UD and Orcs!

[DarnYak]

Then i'd like to see new items with less upgrades. Since this game has over 500 items, i think i makes brutish lag in the world editor, or? I think u can make it upon 3 instead of 5 upgrades. But add instead more items. Like main-hand things: weapons for melee, staffs for casters...

And also a decreased map-size. I speak about rremoving Kedge, Mire and Candleburg. And make own maps with them. So people can host the map they want to play. I hope this is going to prevent lag and loading time.

Items is definatly one of the big problems of EotA I would not repeat. The concept is fine, and if EotA 2.0 isn't in WC3 it may be doable, but in current WC3 hell no.

On a related note, a 2.0 would give me a nice chance to sort out and clarify the various resources far better, as right now they're a bit muddled and I'm less then happy with it. For instance, gold may be purely short term benefits (mercs, potions, etc.) where as crystal becomes long term (permanent items, hero upgrades, talents). Not sure yet how I would approach team resources in a way that is more safe from people wasting them.

The map size really doesn't impact loading time as much as people think. It adds a little bit to be sure, but its extremely small compared to the rest. However, I'd probably try to design 2.0 in a way that would allow me to genuinely seperate the maps with minimal effort (atm that's too problematic). This would of course allow me to use more specific tilesets, and certain map specific triggers would probably be easier to deal with.

DarnYak

[Mills]

Who do i look like, tox?

That would be scary

EotA needs a Meepo

[Dekar]

My newest EotA 2.0 desire: Use lights!

Make Candleburg ( or any map of EotA 2.0 ) to have a custom ambient light that is very dark ( night, doh ) and add lights all over the town so we can see something. The light theme fits perfectly to the background story and as the smallest map it could be done in max 30 mins ( if you find the right color settings for the ambient light, heh ).

http://wc3campaigns.net/showthread.php?t=82062
Chapter Lights (ambient light and omnilights)

The ambient light can be changed by a single trigger action and just a special ambient light for every map alone could make every map look even more special.

And an important fact about these custom lights: Each light model is only some byte in size.

[DarnYak]

My newest EotA 2.0 desire: Use lights!

I'm actualy suprised to see this brought up. Back in the early stages of EotA, one of the things i looked at was attempting to change the default lighting conditions of EotA, but I was less then satifised with the result (in part because nothing really fit besides making night darker, and that had a bad effect of making everything too hard to see).

I could definatly see how this would improve map atmosphere, but i'll behonest and say i'm not convinced this fits in EotA as it is. I may toy with it to see what can be done that enhances the visual style without harming gameplay, but I'm not entirely sure.

On a somewhat related note, this would acutaly fit my Witching Hour map extremely well should I ever go back and finish it. I could also see it working out extremely well in Exodus.

DarnYak

[Dekar]

Lights Off
Lights On

Second picture is with activated custom ambient light and custom omnilight at every fire.
Would sure look great in Witching Hour

[Hammel]

What I fear about classes is that the skills are way less original... atm most of the skills are unique, matching the heroes' background... when you use classes, you would need way more skills and the single ones would be less unique.

However, I see the great advantage of nearly absolute customizability, especially for melees (Berserker, Captain, Warrior Mage, ~~), but on the other hand it will be difficult to keep ALL of the possibilities in mind... so you would still end up with only a few personal builds you use... (especially if your later builds base on decisions made early in the game... atm TC can be screwed when you go for Ebb/Dispell with Heal secondary and the you need Degen for nuking).


In terms of squads: GO TACT GO!!! Still, only use them for appropriate heroes... that is Tact. And possibly Bane. Perhaps Rue and the Naga Oracle (forgot the name).

Light sounds great, and in general I would like to see (Fel) Orcs...

[xmusicfreakx]

I don't think EotA should be completely "class-based" as in games like HOSK (that game sucks btw). My opinion is to give each hero more abilities than he/she can have. For example, give each hero the ability to learn 8 (?) different spells, but only allow him to actually use 5 (?) of them. The numbers are changeable of course.

This would allow for some flexibility and a lot more customization.

Also, I'm probably going to be flamed for this, because this is a wild idea, but what about getting rid of ultimates? Just making every ability normal. It wouldn't really affect balance IMO, as the abilities would be the same, just nerf the ultimates to make them normal spells. A while back I was working on an AoS and this is the concept I was using, and it worked very well (until I turned it into a hero arena...and then eventually stopped working on it <_<).

[jamn455]

Do you know how hard it is to balance 5 skills + and ult, well just imagine giving every hero a couple more spells and imagine all of the balance issues that would arise from this happening.

[DarnYak]

Also, I'm probably going to be flamed for this, because this is a wild idea, but what about getting rid of ultimates? Just making every ability normal. It wouldn't really affect balance IMO, as the abilities would be the same, just nerf the ultimates to make them normal spells. A while back I was working on an AoS and this is the concept I was using, and it worked very well (until I turned it into a hero arena...and then eventually stopped working on it <_<).

It's not unreasonable, but I don't think it'd be a good thing. Ultimates primarily differ on two things: cooldown, and flashy graphics (moreso graphics in custom maps then in base wc3). The graphics are obviously irrelevant from a balance point of view, but not for general satifsfaction from playing/leveling. Cooldowns can be tweaked according to the skills power without requiring it to be an ultimate, but I also kinda like the concept of an "oh shit" ability that you can't just use anytime you have mana. Ultimtes are also something major to look foward too, a major milestone in character development.

DarnYak

[Dekar]

[...] flashy graphics [...] general satifsfaction [...] "oh shit" ability
DarnYak

Damn right!

[BLUEPOWERVAN]

2.0 2.0 2.0

So, regarding the things from DY:

Hero vs Class -- Sorry I am way in favor of Hero... for me, the approach gives (what is basically) your avatar a real personality. Class type heroes... well, they just seem too stripped down and game mechanical. I _could_ see where they are equally as interesting and diverse as the current hero system is... but still, the hero system appeals to me most.

Tactical units: yay ... This is one of a few things I think it really lacking. a limited/natural interface I think would be best... eg, basically tethering the units to the hero. (Limited interface meaning: The hero could issue a couple commands, maybe which commands depends on his party members(maybe spartan shield bearers could lift shields and shield nearby units from arrows, or healers could heal, units could occaisionally be told to focus on the heroes target, or told to stay out of the fight), but not explicitly control individual party members' movement/action... ).

I like it, because I can see it adding more versatility to playstyles if done correctly. Maybe a given hero has 3-5 default units, and as other units are researched/unit towers created, and possibly somehow earned, a unit or two could be swapped out for a better unit, and upgrade paths could complement hero advancement... That way, for any given hero, you can further accentuate your playstyle by tweaking your effectiveness in healing/speed/damage and so on.

I think it really ties in well with my other large idea I feel is lacking from (or not well done by) current AOS's... neutral armies... EG not just a few scattered neutral creep spawns, but basically mini neutral-creep empires. Eg, potentially infinitely spawning neutral creep waves (sort of like the current map-discovery mode creeps)... but only triggered so... eg not necessarily changing the focus of the game from player side vs player side.

Like, either just add a spawn tower pointing at a nest of dragons, or somehow team petition to divert resources there... The dragons get enraged, roar their defiance accross the map (and to the other team), swarm from their caves and attempt to beat the besieging invaders, and smash their offending tower (and perhaps spawn route). If you win, perhaps you could enslave the dragons, providing an optional dragonling escort option, maybe the occaisional free dragon spawn, or the ability to add dragon spawn towers.

Really, the variety of rewards and degree of effort required to obtain them is completely tailorable, but in short it can be summed up by neutrals truly on the scale of an AOS... current neutrals are generally poorly thought-out, and either tack-ons copied from the real game, or in some maps completely dominating the other aspects (so its more a defense).



The other cute idea I have, (though I don't really envision it for eota so much), is a kind of "Attack of the Ancients" map. The premise of AOS's is that two established bases are constantly warring to take down one another... my vision is competing barbaric hoardes essentially.. the strongest force constantly driving onward, constantly sieging down settlements. To keep the usual stasis, 2 warring forces would both continually move clockwise or counter-clockwise, or some equivalent circular motion, essentially eternally chasing one another's tails.

Heroes would play both attack and defense, either trying to slow the enemy advance or hasten their own. The idea is that the winning team eventually pins the losing team down, to where it the losing team is trapped between the winning offense, and the town held by the winning team. (After each area is conquered, obviously the conquerors forces move in and build up, eventually to be taken down by the opposing team.) Anyway, I think the exact specifics of balancing, the timing/pacing of the sieges, the exp gain/advancement and map geography would be very difficult, as the map type would be quite a bit different from any previous custom map.

Anyway, that's my store of ideas. <3 EOTA

[ashwa]

I favour hero style.. i guess its easier to balance it, and i never liked the multiclassed approach where everyone can be everything.. I like the system just as it is, i only miss more races..

On a sidenote, are there any upcoming games you could start modding eota for instead seeing war3 is proving to be so difficult to work with?

[jamn455]

Wouldn't changing EotA into a unit based AoS just make it another DotA clone? I think thats one thing that shouldn't be changed to keep the general feel of EotA.

[DarnYak]

Just a heads up:

The announcement of SC2 actualy makes EotA 2.0 MORE likely, due to the fact there's some ideas i'd like to experiement in Eota2.

DarnYak

[Tehw00tz]

Just a heads up:

The announcement of SC2 actually makes EotA 2.0 MORE likely, due to the fact there's some ideas I'd like to experiment in Eota2.

DarnYak

That is, if it doesn't use JASS, right?

[BLUEPOWERVAN]

Well, they said they would improve the mapmaking tools, so maybe they will give us a visual studio for jass or something