Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

This thread has been created to discuss the balance of backdooring, where it becomes imbalanced, ways to counter backdooring, and ways that might better help Yak come up with a way to somewhat "nerf" (if you see it to be imbalanced) or buff (if you see it as useless).

Speax please.

Darwin Effect. For the good of the gene pool, and all that. I don't like it when it happens, but then sometime I go "Lol I can't believe I let that happen. >_<"

Backdooring can be easy to counter, if u are paying attention you can buy mercs to start attacking or port to scare them away

The infil and the Tact can be a real pain, because they can go invis for away and wait for u to leave and start attacking again. THis can be esaly coujntered by getting dust or have Fenris there or owls.

Fenris is most likey the only hero in i think that can really back door good, because if a high lvl dream run, he can easly come back and start attacking workers that u hired or just wait till u leave and come back

Elle wrote:It's strategy..

Can't help it if half the world is noob.

Poor noobs.

Genrap, you for got about Harpy, cannon towers can't even touch her.

I voted Darwin effect, though the strength and imbalance of the backdooring is dependant on both the player's intelligence and the hero.

Reborn

What was the counter for a invisible rk who is going to lvl 4 gr your base again?

Oh yeah i forgot you notice him the moment the appears to channel, teleport to him and net him before gr goes off.

I still say it depends on the hero. For some heroes it just doesnt fit to backdoor, like BP, RK, Gravel, Bane and Scarab, because their role is to go along with the spawnies, they are tanks for some reason.

With others it is ok to me, like Infil and Tact. Tact brings her own units for tactical operations, Infil just does her job then. That can also count for Harpy, although she will do it for the fun of devestation. Fenny could try to lure hunt there to have some fun... but why would the BP leave his troops to backdoor? Doesn't make sense.

So I hold my vote for now until there is a fitting option (or you tell me what fits my opinion best).

Btw, I know that my opinion is impossible to make in an AoS.

-Ham

Dekar wrote:What was the counter for a invisible rk who is going to lvl 4 gr your base again? :roll:

Oh yeah i forgot you notice him the moment the appears to channel, teleport to him and net him before gr goes off.

You just need to press esc twice per second... so easy! It gets hard when he also got the BP and 4 sappers appear short after they get visible!

I don't think the problem is the hero.

I think it's the level.

What i'd like to see is guides to both doing and fighitng backdooring. In all the games i've played I don't recall ever seeing it (not that I get to play that many games)

DarnYak

To do backdooring, you simply have to do a lot of damage in a short amount of time... =sappers, massive sludges (zeppelin), spells dealing damage to buildings, possibly Elite Archers or Promotes (for Tact). Then you need to get the enemy team work on other lanes (=Merc push in mid for example, start siege on another lane and tele) and have to get to the targeted base without being seen (Invis Pots, flying over mountains, move off the lanes, on your own side behind fighting lines) and attack. When stuff goes down you have done well. Maybe you can also kill the enemy heroes which comes to help.

To counter:

As AA, use owls to follow enemy heroes and to watch the area around your bases.
As AC, put owls into the trees near the bases to see heroes coming. Otherwise hit escape and be careful when too many are missing without reason. Portal Scrolls are useful because they got no casting time so that you can get many heroes there in no time. To me countering is a bit difficult because you need to see it coming, and especially Stormwail is too huge.

On the other hand backdooring with more than one or two heroes is difficult because your other lanes need to be relatively safe, and everyone would have to stop doing what he does at that moment.

Still, when a team is good at team-backdooring, they have a great advantage towards the team who cant.

Stopping a single hero can be more difficult be more difficult because he can simply run/FLY away and come back a second later.

My 2 Cents (may be 3 in America, don't know)

-Ham

EDIT:

IonKiller wrote: I don't think the problem is the hero.

I think it's the level.

I disagree. Level isnt so important in EotA. Some heroes just can't do shit against buildings (DW, DS), while others do a lot more (AA, RK, BP, AC, Gravel, Harpy). Also you can level up faster than others although you got as many free energy as they have and fight all the time... for some reason, dunno, sometimes.

I think its ok, but only for the heros who should do it caus its their job.
Like Tactican and Infi, or maybe the Harpy.

But i dont think you should nerf this for these special heros, you can nerv the invi potions or so dont know but not their skills.
Yeah i know i never used this tact caus i though tower have truesight and so i didnt wanted to die because trying it out.

And ive never seen it happen so i dont can say much more about it.

Towers don't have true sight, this is not DotA ^^. That is why Infi can just run into a base, kill a weak hero, blink out and disappear.

Invi potions are not the main problem because of the huge off-lane areas. You can get to the blue bottom base without anyone seing you until you are at a distance of... 500 from the main base (estimated)... Invi Pots wont help so much. When getting away, Invi potions might be helpful, but nerfing them so that they don't help anymore there would make them useless.

-Ham

Three words to counter backdooring:

Wand - of - Shadowsight.

Put a charge on every human-controlled hero. Refresh it every time they die, and press ESC every minute or so to make sure that they haven't dispelled it. If they've dispelled it, they're probably doing something sneaky, and you should be on the lookout. When they pull whatever they were doing, or when they step back into the light, Shadowsight them again. If they backdoor without dispelling your Shadowsight, it's your own fault if they make it through.

RSOG wrote:Three words to counter backdooring:

Wand - of - Shadowsight.

Put a charge on every human-controlled hero. Refresh it every time they die, and press ESC every minute or so to make sure that they haven't dispelled it. If they've dispelled it, they're probably doing something sneaky, and you should be on the lookout. When they pull whatever they were doing, or when they step back into the light, Shadowsight them again. If they backdoor without dispelling your Shadowsight, it's your own fault if they make it through.

O_O I dunno, I'd probably try to dispel wand of shadowsight whenever it was cast on me, regardless if I was backdooring or not.

But yeah...Backdooring, IMO, is a bit too strong. Fenris and Hag are the main two problems, since Fenris can just dreamrun in and out and Hag can just fly over the towers. Maybe...the towers could get a slow, passive upgrade to their hero attack? That's just a suggestion, though.

WoS: Bad idea... any good DW will go for dispel, and I also play TC on dispel... same for AC, Treant isnt played often enough.

Still, when those heroes are on the enemy team, WoS is just WAY too expensive due to the short CDs... often the dispells cool down before the effects run out Oo

Fenny... dunno whether he is such a problem... I think that his own attack doesnt do enough damage, and when he uses dream run to get in, he cant use it to get out... TP scroll and own him to pieces... (if he goes for dmg, he wont have hp and armor)... his ultimate is problematic, though... but therefore he needs units, and the units will get attacked first and buy you time.

Hag is a problem though... Chaos Rift, fast attack, high damage and Plate Helmet = ouch... in combination with the ability to simply fly away.

Still, Elves can easily do the same... Tact > Obs, towers and spawn towers (important, just get some Elite Archers massed somewhere, ready to be picked up [before 1.11]), SB > shit, RK+BP > Shit, Infil > Shit... even Aero's tornadoes hurt when you dont dispell them ~~ (she cannot go alone though)

On backdooring:

Infilt has a 90% miss cloud of GG, and sabotage. Get some attack upgrades, plant some mines...the rest should be obvious.

On fighting backdooring:
See that little 100 gold teleport?

USE IT.

Enough said.

Oracle has a 2000 dmg building nuke that always works and even defends her from melee (Geyser if you dont know) and a 450 dmg attack... I wonder how she kills towers faster...

Btw, the "100 gold teleport" is way too slow to stop people (or especially harpy), and in the long run it costs you way too much gold... guess we already mentioned that above, so better read a thread before you post in it, this one isnt THAT long.. ~~

Sorry if we are so rude, but you don't seem to think about what you say, or really know what you are talking about...

The "long run"? If the heroes are strong enough to backdoor several towers which are smashing into them with an anti-hero attack, and the spawns and all of that fancy jazz, the game should be to the point that you can make 100 gold hand over fist.

I'm sorry but how is the game to the point that you can't afford to use that 100 gold and that harpy/infilt/tact can backdoor several towers along with spawns? Something doesn't compute.

Demongod86 wrote:The "long run"? If the heroes are strong enough to backdoor several towers which are smashing into them with an anti-hero attack, and the spawns and all of that fancy jazz, the game should be to the point that you can make 100 gold hand over fist.

I'm sorry but how is the game to the point that you can't afford to use that 100 gold and that harpy/infilt/tact can backdoor several towers along with spawns? Something doesn't compute.

Your brain power doesn't 'compute'.

I will fuck up your backdoor with gravel, if you let it happen. And I'll be nice enough to tell you how. Str + Orb o Life (+5) + Rockthrow + boulder + Invis Pot (x2)
Go invis. Wait for cooldown to be over. Walk into the base and stand next to the structure you want to destroy. Target the ult on the other side of gravel (the boulders start behind gravel). watch ownage. say to other team "i'm in ur base, backdooring ur doodz". use rockthrow. laugh at the other team allowing you to do more ownage. attack until you think you might die (could take some time). use second invis pot. leave. if at anytime you think you might die, just skip to step 10.

Now I'll tell you exactly how many times someone should be able to get a 6 second long back door attack on you: once, unless your NUBCAKESSUXXORZ. I say six seconds, because that's the amount of time it takes for the 100g tele. After that you should walk your sorry ass to the item shop and plop down 300 gold for a Scroll O Insta-Tele.