Fix Towers

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Re: Fix Towers

#26 Post by Luftwaffles »

Srsly, mid is easy to hold with just 4 towers? With the money your team spent to make 4 towers, my team can send golems into all 5 lanes.
Really? I thought you'd have to upgrade all those bases to do that. That costs a helluva lot more then 4 towers.

The assumption that if I go mid I will somehow be too preoccupied to bother elsewhere is kind of silly. Granted that I have said this from the beginning, I am talking about AoE heroes and towers. It is really easy to farm the money to buy it, upkeep is not too expensive and the whole point of the strat is so that you can focus elsewhere. Like, command middle to elsewhere. That's the investment.

Really, by taking mid and ignoring it I'll just merc and siege mid. If you focus on mid, I'll put my cores on lanes 2/4 and have a siege there.

This tower thing is not invincible and I don't think it's very successful vs. BP/Martyr, or successful against a team who anticipated it early, but it is very easy to put up two towers within the first 20 minutes (when it is most effective) and it definitely prolongs the game a lot if it's up, since assuming you have at least one rational ally you'll be able to defend the mid spot better than you would your own base.

I just don't see why we need to have towers buildable outside bases when theoretically attack gens should do just fine (though they don't, they blow).
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Re: Fix Towers

#27 Post by Reaper »

One simple counter to towers is to simply spend 800 gold on items everytime they spend 800 on a tower. You can't kill an item. The increasing difference in gold between teams will eventually tip the tides in favor of the non-towering team.

Towering is such a weak strategy. It might prolong the game, but who really wants to do that?
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Re: Fix Towers

#28 Post by DarkNemesis »

Actually, Reaper has some good points here. A well-geared, well-played hero is by far the most intimadating aspect of EotA. Just don't forget to save a little for emergencies :wink:

Aslo, towers are little match against a good sieger and couple of termite jars. Bane + Encourage, Tyrant +ultimate, Rue + Auras, Ember +Smolder/Corona, just to name a few. It's almost laughible how fast these guys drop towers, yet we aren't wanting to slam them with restrictions.
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Re: Fix Towers

#29 Post by Luftwaffles »

Does anyone who is not DarkNemesis and Reaper have any comments about what I've said?
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Re: Fix Towers

#30 Post by Discombobulator »

Discombobulator wrote:Towers mean concentrating your resources in one spot. The enemy has a vast choice of less defended spots to attack. If you're able to tower one or more places, while not losing anything anywhere, I'd say that your team is a lot stronger than the other.

Srsly, mid is easy to hold with just 4 towers? With the money your team spent to make 4 towers, my team can send golems into all 5 lanes.
Way to dodge the point of this post Ion.

To fortify one spot AND not lose anything anywhere, your team needs to be a lot stronger than the other, which should in any case mean that your team wins. Your whole story implies that the enemy is not doing anything much. They aren't pushing anywhere, aren't taking any non-middle obelisks or bases, they aren't exploiting any weaknesses in your strat (such as the massive gold dump to build your mountaintop fortress) and most importantly aren't able to destroy your middle towers. The hypothetical enemy team therefore must lack pushing, sieging and AoE skills, and (upon further reflection) probably sucks at hero killing too.


So, let me counter your little theory of mind with one of my own: You fortify the mountain summit. OK, fine, my team pushes your corner base and destroys it. Actually, my team defends the middle, while I destroy the corner alone. Actually, while I'm owning the corner, I'm also supporting my team in the middle. No, you can't win that game, no matter what you do. No matter what your team does, either. Yes, pushing the corner is imba. Yak, please buff the corner defenses. My entirely hypothetical, illogical, highly unlikely and overhyped strategy that has existed for at least 9000 versions is suddenly unstoppable. No, don't listen to the naysayers - they don't have a clue about EotA. In fact, one of them even posted a thread about no-porn policies in relationships. See what I mean? I'm right, therefore I'm right.
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Re: Fix Towers

#31 Post by Dekar »

I dont want to watch the replay but I havent heard the buzzwords "smokecloud" and smiliar things as well as "siege gens". Could they help?
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Re: Fix Towers

#32 Post by jamn455 »

I have to agree with Ion on this one. It seems to be that none of you have actually been faced against this tower strategy, thus you have no idea how frustrating it actually is. It is used as a surprise attack at one of the most crucial chokepoints in EotA. Towers do far more damage to units than you guys expect, and any hero without units is vulnerable to dying, and no siege hero can do anything while it is dead, and many of them lose their ability to siege after being stunned/silenced/etc.

As Ion has said, IT IS NOT PERFECT, but if your opponents go an AoE heavy team that has a lack of tanks or siege heroes, then it works like a charm. Of course heroes like Emberwraith, RK, Tyrant, Infiltrator, BP, etc will be good against the strategy, but others such as DW, Aero, Harpy, etc are not as good against it.

As for siege gens, they are a good counter to it, but you must realize that if middle is pushed, they are destroyed much easier than a tower, 2500 hp and fortified armor against I think 800 hp and normal armor, and you must also think that the towers could be backed up by fortification gens, execution gens(or whichever one dominates heroes), replenishment gens, etc to make sure that the towers have bonus armor/are healed, heroes that come near are damaged heavily, and allied heroes are healed to make sure they can counterpush more often.

I will post more about this later, REMEMBER NOBODY SAID THIS STRATEGY IS PERFECT AND CANNOT BE BEAT, and I will get back to what everyone says about this, and I will post more about items against this strategy, etc.

Troll away Dark/Disco/Reaper, I gave you more shit to troll, so get to it.
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Re: Fix Towers

#33 Post by Discombobulator »

jamn455 wrote:I have to agree with Ion on this one. It seems to be that none of you have actually been faced against this tower strategy, thus you have no idea how frustrating it actually is. It is used as a surprise attack at one of the most crucial chokepoints in EotA. Towers do far more damage to units than you guys expect, and any hero without units is vulnerable to dying, and no siege hero can do anything while it is dead, and many of them lose their ability to siege after being stunned/silenced/etc.

As Ion has said, IT IS NOT PERFECT, but if your opponents go an AoE heavy team that has a lack of tanks or siege heroes, then it works like a charm. Of course heroes like Emberwraith, RK, Tyrant, Infiltrator, BP, etc will be good against the strategy, but others such as DW, Aero, Harpy, etc are not as good against it.

As for siege gens, they are a good counter to it, but you must realize that if middle is pushed, they are destroyed much easier than a tower, 2500 hp and fortified armor against I think 800 hp and normal armor, and you must also think that the towers could be backed up by fortification gens, execution gens(or whichever one dominates heroes), replenishment gens, etc to make sure that the towers have bonus armor/are healed, heroes that come near are damaged heavily, and allied heroes are healed to make sure they can counterpush more often.

I will post more about this later, REMEMBER NOBODY SAID THIS STRATEGY IS PERFECT AND CANNOT BE BEAT, and I will get back to what everyone says about this, and I will post more about items against this strategy, etc.

Troll away Dark/Disco/Reaper, I gave you more shit to troll, so get to it.
But have you tried to go around the towers? Their movement speed is pretty low, you know.

Several towers backed up with all kinds of gens sounds pretty unbeatable, but in theorycraft, everything can sound unbeatable. With the time, resources and coordination needed to make your own Minas Stormwail, you could get an advantage in over 900 other ways. On the other hand, the enemy team with equal time, resources and coordination could do all kinds of equally nasty things. Like surprise sex with the corner base, which I mentioned in my previous post.
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Re: Fix Towers

#34 Post by DarkNemesis »

So, let me counter your little theory of mind with one of my own: You fortify the mountain summit. OK, fine, my team pushes your corner base and destroys it. Actually, my team defends the middle, while I destroy the corner alone. Actually, while I'm owning the corner, I'm also supporting my team in the middle. No, you can't win that game, no matter what you do. No matter what your team does, either. Yes, pushing the corner is imba. Yak, please buff the corner defenses. My entirely hypothetical, illogical, highly unlikely and overhyped strategy that has existed for at least 9000 versions is suddenly unstoppable. No, don't listen to the naysayers - they don't have a clue about EotA. In fact, one of them even posted a thread about no-porn policies in relationships. See what I mean? I'm right, therefore I'm right.
Wow, I'm acutally impressed by this, and strangely enough, agree.

Watching the replay, I came under the realization that your mid tower-base strat wasn't all that deadly, first of all, the other team sucked at trying to seige it, in fact, made little real effort, they had BP I believe? Second, your team was better, I don't mean the heros per say, but the people playing them, they all seemed to know what they were doing, the other team? Meh, not so much.
go around the towers? Their movement speed is pretty low, you know.
Lol, watch out for them towers! They'll sneak up and get ya when your not lookin! :twisted:

Troll away Dark/Disco/Reaper, I gave you more shit to troll, so get to it.
Did you read what Yak wrote, honestly?

No.
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Re: Fix Towers

#35 Post by Dekar »

The things i learned from the second replay:

Workers can repair statues.
Infernal Cannons are nice siege units due to their 800 range.


Everything else was known before:

2 good AoE heroes can defend a lane against a AoE and a Support hero. How often did a push reach tower range during the game? 4 times? They could propably have defended it against non T3 mercs without any tower help.
Everyone who is following this thread will be able to react better the next time he encounters this situation, by getting some goblin shop help.
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Re: Fix Towers

#36 Post by Discombobulator »

Btw thanks jamn, without you my life is empty.
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Re: Fix Towers

#37 Post by Reaper »

Apparently I'm trolling because I don't think towering is an issue?

I'm pretty sure a siege gen could hit a cluster of towers from a spot not directly in the path of armies. If you are being towered against and your team is aoe heavy, chances are you can push the other 4 lanes pretty easily.
Reaper wrote:One simple counter to towers is to simply spend 800 gold on items everytime they spend 800 on a tower. You can't kill an item. The increasing difference in gold between teams will eventually tip the tides in favor of the non-towering team.
And of course there is also the 'doing something about it before they can set up 4 towers' method
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Re: Fix Towers

#38 Post by jamn455 »

One thing I especially like from Ion's first proposal is have a tower base is placed when a tower dies rather than using a worker to build a tower. I think this could work especially well by putting them on the opposite side of each base which allows enemy expansions to have a place to get towers quickly after they acquire an expansion without needing to bring up two workers. I don't know why I like it, it just seems like a very interesting thing to me.
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Re: Fix Towers

#39 Post by DarkNemesis »

Just to throw something in the air, I've watched quite a few replays and actually, have probably played a couple dozen bnets, as well as countless LANS, an in my own experiecne the tower-bases was unique. Too, without proper funds and a good team willing to babysit, that would be hard as hell to manage. Basically, that type of strat (to my knowledge) doesn't seem to happen that often, so why make a huge deal about it? Plus, there are always the valid points Yak, myself, Discombobulator, and Reaper brought up...
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Re: Fix Towers

#40 Post by Reaper »

I do like the tower base idea. Elreth and I just had a game where we countered mid towering with storm earth fire. We ended up winning.
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Re: Fix Towers

#41 Post by Ion »

The hypothetical enemy team therefore must lack pushing, sieging and AoE skills, and (upon further reflection) probably sucks at hero killing too.
The hypothetical enemy I'm talking about here is one that does not go heavy siege (not uncommon in pubs). Also, the big point I'm trying to make here is that towering mid is boring, game-delaying and doesn't need to be there; there's no need to be able to build towers outside your base (it's an "expensive" luxury if you're not AoE) and because I feel that there are other more creative and useful strategies to employ- like making a gen fortress, which would a lot more pretty/fun, towers should be unallowed from building outside people's bases.

We seem to have really fallen off topic, as now we're busy uselessly debating whether or not this zzz tower strat is invincible. No it is not; it is not guaranteed to win you a game nor did I ever claim it would. It is not "my" strat either, so I would appreciate a little more neutral pronoun use since my argument is that towers don't need to be in the game, not that "I can build this mountain fortress and pwn you all my strat is dope unbeatable".

I've stated before and Jamn's done it again, that this is mostly a frustrating, boring, easy-to-use abuse (imo.) when playing as an AoE hero on Stormwail. Of course, towering mid has a lot of conditionals (surprise, at least 10 crystal, at least one other competent person; who is preferably AoE) that I think ultimately make it far less effective if you're playing against people in an IH. Some people here who have not become disillusioned by their egos (of which I'm guilty of) *cough Dekar cough* have actually hinted at reasonable strategies that would probably work fine against these towers.

However in general, the reason why I posted towering mid up here was not to tout some new, undefeatable strategy that I needed to tell everyone about- which, if you read this second page would certainly sound like what I did. I feel that mid towers are unreasonably easy to build, are a great way to hold 2 obs for a fair bit of time if the other team cannot coordinate fast enough/does not have enough siege, is terribly confusing and completely unnecessary in public games and does not add more "depth" to the game's strategy.

If you really feel in support of towers being able to exist, that you should be able to build them in the middle and that they are in fact a great investment that keep EotA deep in strategy then please discuss. I am of the opinion that it is not, that they should be limited to one's base (like obs you can only build them in a base, so you choose the placement but you can't go put them in mid) and that Yak should look to more interesting ways of ob defense, like special additions to attack gens or "tower gens" or some shit, Perhaps had a good idea with Obelisk's being "upgradable". Perhaps even encourage the use of Arcane Gens.

*edit: That is great Reaper, winning is lovely. Keep in mind that generally when you play with Elreth, you are bound to generally win more then you lose.
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Re: Fix Towers

#42 Post by Elreth »

Played against some pubbies who used this earlier. It was actually going rather well for them, they had siege gens and took our mid base and built it up and everything. About 5 SEFs later though we had won. They built towers like everywhere. I think there was at least one extra tower in each base and gens all over too.

Edit: Well I guess I was extremely beaten to this punch. Should have refreshed I suppose.

Edit2: A little bit of elaboration. Basically their Rothwyn was all about fortifying the middle from the beginning. I killed him twice in like the first minute so I wasnt worried about him though and so he got his foot in the door and then he was pushing and he had some support I think and so I let his workers alone for too long and as an aside, on certain angles it is damn hard to target workers next to gens.

Anyway I tried to counter him a siege gen but he had siege gens up first and although I was out repairing him since I could more easily defend my workers, he quickly brought in bane during a push and he tore up my gen/workers pretty badly. I could have done more to protect it probably but you don't really have a lot of time to think. It doesn't help that I wasn't exactly a base defending hero.. or a pushing hero. I was a little annoyed that my team had kind of let defending the middle fall to me for a while and so I think I just mostly left it and focused on other things.

Anyway SEF cleared it all up. Rothwyn didnt even know it existed. They killed him once or twice but they just left it alone a lot of the time. Ill throw on the replay for anyone who is interested. (or no I won't since it won't upload)

PS: Yak, is SEF affected by the number of buildings they have? I have always assumed more buildings would split up the damge more but it might be % based for all I know. Just curious.
Last edited by Elreth on June 16th, 2009, 4:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Fix Towers

#43 Post by Reaper »

... What you don't seem to understand is that by saying that it can be beaten means that it likely won't be changed.

No one likes stormwail to be longer than it already is, true. Being able to defend obs with towers is nice though. I wouldn't mind the build circle around base/ob
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Re: Fix Towers

#44 Post by DarkNemesis »

The...
I saw the size of the post and gave up here.

The tower idea isn't bad though.
Played against some pubbies
No saved replay? :(
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Re: Fix Towers

#45 Post by DarnYak »

PS: Yak, is SEF affected by the number of buildings they have? I have always assumed more buildings would split up the damge more but it might be % based for all I know. Just curious.
It picks random enemy targets as far as I recalll, so yes - but its minor because units are the bulk of targets.
that this is mostly a frustrating, boring, easy-to-use abuse (imo.) when playing as an AoE hero on Stormwail
I have to ask, could this be more an indication of problems with AoE farming capibilities then the tactic? And as pointed out, I'm not convinced the towers were even necessary for most of the strat - only at one or two points were they towers actually sieged, and they were saved more by teamwork (I think 4 heroes ended up in mid) then their own presence.

Second, I dont think you've establisehd its frustrating or boring. The 2nd replay you posted actually seemed like quite an exciting game - untill exec gens got up, anyway. Maybe frustrating, since they didn't get anywhere - but nor did the other side really.

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Re: Fix Towers

#46 Post by Ion »

I have to ask, could this be more an indication of problems with AoE farming capibilities then the tactic? And as pointed out, I'm not convinced the towers were even necessary for most of the strat - only at one or two points were they towers actually sieged, and they were saved more by teamwork (I think 4 heroes ended up in mid) then their own presence.
This is something I have considered as well. It may very well be the AoE, and not the towers that is cheese (after all without the AoE there is no towers). However, whether or not AoE farming has problems I still feel towers are an unnecessary addition to the game when there are more creative, less cheesed way of building similar effects. Some examples mentioned here are tower gens or upgradable Obelisks.

I'll post more later, I had a long one but I'll save it for when I have time. Dave wants to show me something so xD
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