Serious this time?

[DarkNemesis]

I don't know if you guys have been keeping up with some of the news, but I guess North Korea is making rather serious threats against the south and even the U.S. So, if we/the south check their ships you guys think it could really will turn to war? I've heard some crazy shit about how poor the country is, basically so much so that they receive aid from other countries just to feed their people. Strange then, that they would declare insinuations for war against the most powerful country on earth. Now obviously, we don't need to start nuking them, that should be the very last option (like with Japan in WW2), and this may not be even a serious threat. But, they are starting nuclear plaints, test firing missiles and making validations for war, so...you have to wonder?

Just my 2 cents, you do you guys think? Could this really be serious? Possibly the start of something huge (WW3?) Let me know what ya think. Some of this stuff is damn scary.

Oh, and I heard they have a larger army then we do? Like, the 3rd or 2nd largest in the world?

[Kalrithus]

Its called saber rattling and posturing, they don't have enough resources, even with aid from countries like China/Russia to really afford another war without it having crippling effects later.

[jamn455]

North Korea isn't a serious threat.

[Luftwaffles]

They're gonna destroy you all.

[CryptLord1234]

Its called saber rattling and posturing, they don't have enough resources, even with aid from countries like China/Russia to really afford another war without it having crippling effects later.

Gonna have to go with this one.

Diplomacy works much better when the other side knows you're not only able, but willing, to pull out your sword / club / (insert weapon here) and (try to) beat them over the head with it.

[Casval]

Protip: One of the reasons North Korea is so poor is because the entire world has shut them out due to trade embargoes. This is the equivalent of sticking a kid in the closet indefinitely for misbehaving without helping him to rearrange his attitude. Oh, and then, occasionally, if he makes a fuss while in the closet, open it a bit and give him some food, then let him continue to misbehave. It failed for Iraq too.

Anyway, no, NK is not a threat. South Korea and Japan are the only countries with anything to fear. Actually, just make that Japan. Actually, just make that no one, because North Korea would NEVER launch a nuke at anyone unless they were being bombed for no reason. I know plenty of South Koreans, none of whom are actually worried. Almost everyone there has family across the border, and in recent years they've made a good amount of progress (even if the current president is rolling some of it back). The entire situation is completely overblown. All of the Korean demonstrators you see in international news reports are the equivalent of American neocon warhawks.

[DarnYak]

Anyway, no, NK is not a threat. South Korea and Japan are the only countries with anything to fear. Actually, just make that Japan. Actually, just make that no one, because North Korea would NEVER launch a nuke at anyone unless they were being bombed for no reason.

I think you grossly underestmate the dellusional leader they have. He's fucking crazy.

One of the reasons North Korea is so poor is because the entire world has shut them out due to trade embargoes.

Which is because they won't stop doing crazy shit everytime we offer them a deal.

for misbehaving without helping him to rearrange his attitude

Except we have been trying to get him to change by offering him all sorts of crap. The response, everytime, is he takes whatever we give him but completely ignores his own obligations. And its not like we haven't tried helping the people there either - but he started rejecting food aid a few years ago for some trivial reason (Bush probably said something and Kim would rather his people starve then accept food from us, or something).

The way i read your post makes NK sound like some poor victim country that we pick on just for the hell of it. While its true the country is a victim, its a victim of its own crazy ass leader who thinks he's a god and no respect for anyone else. I know NK treats its citizens like shit, and its prisons are practically out of nazi germany (quite possibly worse). I know they've kidnapped foreigners (particularly japan), although i don't recall the reasons (I do recall hearing he had some japanese model kidnapped to take as his wife, dont' know if that's true)

North Korea isn't a serious threat.

To us? Only indirectly by selling their technology (although they have one type of missile that can almost hit the west coast). To Japan? Moderate, can shoot rockets over there. To SK? Massive, while it wouldn't win the war Seoul is in artillary range of the border, and would likely be completley destroyed in a short amount of time. NK is poor but it spends almost all its money on its military. It's certainly not going to win, but it'll cause a fuckton of damage being taken down.

DarnYak

[Casval]

I think you grossly underestmate the dellusional leader they have. He's fucking crazy.

I wouldn't call him crazy. I'd call him eccentric, and immature, but certainly not crazy. He's not quite on megalomaniac level like Saddam Hussein is. There's no mass killings, etc.

Which is because they won't stop doing crazy shit everytime we offer them a deal.

Well, you have to understand that Kim Jong Il has been in power for almost two decades now. And his father was the supreme ruler before, so it's not like he's unfamiliar with world affairs. You have to look at it from their perspective. In the original Korean War, the US supported South Korea on the sole basis that it wasn't communist--a terrible, retarded reason, especially considering that their leaders turned out to be just as oppressive as the North's. There was a lot of hateful rhetoric from Western power during that period of time against North Korea, something they haven't forgotten over there. So while you've essentially had a single regime operating over there for half a century, we in the US change hands every four to eight years. So, using the closet analogy, if you lock a kid in the closet for a long time, he's not going to come out civilized. He's going to be even more brutal than before.

Except we have been trying to get him to change by offering him all sorts of crap. The response, everytime, is he takes whatever we give him but completely ignores his own obligations. And its not like we haven't tried helping the people there either - but he started rejecting food aid a few years ago for some trivial reason (Bush probably said something and Kim would rather his people starve then accept food from us, or something).

I don't know about rejections of food aid (I do know that he monopolized foreign aid and never really gave it to his citizens), but I do know that the heavy-handed approach does not work with Kim Jong Il. The US has not truly, actively given aid to NK--rather, it waits until there's a military development, threatens action, and then only until NK outright refuses does it provide any substantial aid. On the other hand, if you look at former South Korean president Roh's approach, which was to actively provide aid and foster good relationships, you see a NK that essentially came out of its shell and gave Koreans the first hints of a possible reunification since the civil war.

The way i read your post makes NK sound like some poor victim country that we pick on just for the hell of it. While its true the country is a victim, its a victim of its own crazy ass leader who thinks he's a god and no respect for anyone else. I know NK treats its citizens like shit, and its prisons are practically out of nazi germany (quite possibly worse). I know they've kidnapped foreigners (particularly japan), although i don't recall the reasons (I do recall hearing he had some japanese model kidnapped to take as his wife, dont' know if that's true)

They are a poor victim country. They were victimized by Japan after World War II and then marginalized and ignored during the Cold War. With regards to kidnappings, he did kidnap several Japanese for the purpose of teaching their spies the language. They were released a few years ago I believe. Then again, Japan is the same country that conscripted Korean women as prostitutes during WWII and had massacre parties with civilians, so personally, I'd say that 10 or so kidnappees, most of whom survived and even married and had families in North Korea, is not really an equivalent trade.

To us? Only indirectly by selling their technology (although they have one type of missile that can almost hit the west coast). To Japan? Moderate, can shoot rockets over there. To SK? Massive, while it wouldn't win the war Seoul is in artillary range of the border, and would likely be completley destroyed in a short amount of time. NK is poor but it spends almost all its money on its military. It's certainly not going to win, but it'll cause a fuckton of damage being taken down.

I truly doubt North Korea would sell technology to any rogue groups--to other nations, MAYBE, but to be honest that's just as likely with plenty of other nations, including Pakistan and Russia. They do, like most Eastern Asian oldies, have a burning hatred for Japan, but they would never act on it because they know the retaliation would be severe. They also wouldn't actually resume the war with South Korea, considering Koreans are some of the most nationalistic and ethnocentric people in the world, and that relations until Lee took office in SK were the highest in 50 years.

[Discombobulator]

You guys are seriously retarded if you think North Korea is a threat to you.

Stop meddling in other people's affairs, imperialist scum.

[Dekar]

Why dont you invade them?
Oh right, this country has real nukes, not imaginary ones.

Just the typical impression of the USA.

[Kalrithus]

truly doubt North Korea would sell technology to any rogue groups--to other nations, MAYBE, but to be honest that's just as likely with plenty of other nations, including Pakistan and Russia.

They have been helping Iran with their nuclear ambitions as well, who in turn has connections to many terrorist groups. Two lunatics helping one another out can be a cause for some concern when they have access to WMDs.

, but I do know that the heavy-handed approach does not work with Kim Jong Il.

Wrong the only time we've ever gotten him to fulfill any obligations whatsoever was when we threatened and subsequently followed through on things like trade embargoes in conjunction with their main supporters in Russia/China, even that lunatic has enough sense to understand that with no backing at all their little country won't survive for him to continue his brainwashing of the people.

the US supported South Korea on the sole basis that it wasn't communist--a terrible, retarded reason, especially considering that their leaders turned out to be just as oppressive as the North's.

Think about this, what war did we just exit at that period in time? Then look over at what became of our former ally the USSR... still with me? Remember the communist witchhunts here in the states? Yea alot of it was a load of crap propagated by people like McCarthy so that he could have him time in the limelight but it was based on the capture of Russian spies. During that time we started a war of ideals, between our form of Democracy and those like it VS communist states like Russia and later China. It was indeed partially because of China's turn to Communism that sparked conflicts in Korea and Vietnam due to the fear it provoked. Despite what you may think about South Korea then, consider the current situation. South Korea has prospered, North Korea has been stagnate. South Korea's people enjoy a great deal of freedom, North Korea's people are forced to worship their leader and their children are subjected to brainwashing sessions daily in their "schools" to convince them the west is bad and Kim Jon Il is kami (for irony).

[Discombobulator]

Think about this, what war did we just exit at that period in time? Then look over at what became of our former ally the USSR... still with me? Remember the communist witchhunts here in the states? Yea alot of it was a load of crap propagated by people like McCarthy so that he could have him time in the limelight but it was based on the capture of Russian spies. During that time we started a war of ideals, between our form of Democracy and those like it VS communist states like Russia and later China. It was indeed partially because of China's turn to Communism that sparked conflicts in Korea and Vietnam due to the fear it provoked. Despite what you may think about South Korea then, consider the current situation. South Korea has prospered, North Korea has been stagnate. South Korea's people enjoy a great deal of freedom, North Korea's people are forced to worship their leader and their children are subjected to brainwashing sessions daily in their "schools" to convince them the west is bad and Kim Jon Il is kami (for irony).

South Koreans are also brainwashed, by the Western media and Western economical and cultural influences. Now, you probably can't accept that "your way of life" isn't actaully the best and only morally justifiable one, but the average North Korean wouldn't accept it, either.

What you call prospered and stagnated are values you inherited from your media and your government. There should be things in life that are far more important than consumer goods, cool gadgets and playing Starcraft endlessly. I'm not saying that North Korea is the land of flowers, butterflies and honey, but the West™ is far from perfect, too.

[DarkNemesis]

You guys are seriously retarded if you think North Korea is a threat to you.

Stop meddling in other people's affairs, imperialist scum.

Others affairs? We are talking about an ally of the U.S, as well as the U.S. itself. Learn the true facts please, no one is meddling here. You cant meddle in something that your specifically being addressed about.

Also, I am going to assume you read/heard about the threats they recently initiated? Like the one stating they will attack us/SK should any of their ships undergo searching?

Good.

Now I'm not saying we need to get all up in arms and starting recruiting soldiers. But to completely ignore the blatant signs is just as bad, worse in fact. North Korea is making belligerent statements of war against the South Koreans and the United States. And this should, at the very least, be taken very seriously.

South Koreans are also brainwashed, by the Western media and Western economical and cultural influences. Now, you probably can't accept that "your way of life" isn't actaully the best and only morally justifiable one, but the average North Korean wouldn't accept it, either.

Uhm, maybe try looking to the North a bit? Where the entire country is run by a communist madman.

What you call prospered and stagnated are values you inherited from your media and your government. There should be things in life that are far more important than consumer goods, cool gadgets and playing Starcraft endlessly. I'm not saying that North Korea is the land of flowers, butterflies and honey, but the West™ is far from perfect, too.

This is so wrong. This is the greatest country on this earth, and yes, I can fervently say that, as I see the shit that happens around the world (corrupt leaders, total government control, war, disease, etc) and am that much more happy to be an American. Oh, and stop demonizing the U.S, It's starting to sound hateful.

[Reaper]

as I see the shit that happens around the world (corrupt leaders, total government control, war, disease, etc)

This also describes America pretty accurately.

[Discombobulator]

Others affairs? We are talking about an ally of the U.S, as well as the U.S. itself. Learn the true facts please, no one is meddling here. You cant meddle in something that your specifically being addressed about.

Also, I am going to assume you read/heard about the threats they recently initiated? Like the one stating they will attack us/SK should any of their ships undergo searching?

Good.

Now I'm not saying we need to get all up in arms and starting recruiting soldiers. But to completely ignore the blatant signs is just as bad, worse in fact. North Korea is making belligerent statements of war against the South Koreans and the United States. And this should, at the very least, be taken very seriously.

What gives the US the right to search North Korean ships? See, you're meddling. North Korea is a bastion of hope against American bullying. Also, the US talks about "interventions" in foreign countries all the time. But that's okay, right, because your country is magically righteous, as opposed to others, which are run by evil madme.

Uhm, maybe try looking to the North a bit? Where the entire country is run by a communist madman.

The point, which you so gallantly missed, is that the communist machine and the western machine are equally bad from an objective perspective, each in their own way.

This is so wrong. This is the greatest country on this earth, and yes, I can fervently say that, as I see the shit that happens around the world (corrupt leaders, total government control, war, disease, etc) and am that much more happy to be an American. Oh, and stop demonizing the U.S. It's starting to sound hateful.

Corrupt leaders? Bingo. You got lobbies for pretty much everything that keep the politicians in their pockets. You also have guys with a more direct approach, like Blagojevich (who is incidentally my countryman).
Total government control? Bingo. Check out your airports, check out how cool TSA is. Also, you guys can't drink until you're 21. Also wiretapping, also Patriot act.
War? Bingo. This one doesn't need further explanation.
Disease? Bingo. You're fat. Americans on the whole have an overwhelming chance to be overweight. You, as someone who posts on a computer games related forum, are almost certainly full of blubber.


Please face it, whatever brain you had at birth has been thoroughly washed by your media.

[DarkNemesis]

Ok, I am going to try and pick this apart without laughing too hard.

Total government control? Bingo. Check out your airports, check out how cool TSA is.

This isn't "control" imo, merely regulations that must be meant to ensure safety. Government control would include: regulations on firearms (unconstitutional), socialized healthcare (which we don't have, yet, thank God), standardized emissions on cars (Thank Obama for that one ), cell phone or smoking regulations (which we now have), etc. Oh, and the story of the cancer boy that ran away after the judge ordered him to receive chemo is a very good example of governement control.

War? Bingo. This one doesn't need further explanation.

Actually, you do.

And am I'm assuming your talking about Iraq/Afghanistan? We liberated a madman that openly preached the destruction of the U.S. as well as freed 30 million Arabs? As well as severely crippled several terrorist organizations. Yeah, this doesn't need further explanation.

Disease? Bingo. You're fat. Americans on the whole have an overwhelming chance to be overweight.

Lol, this is because of our eating habits, which, I agree, aren't great. But its all choice. Meh, give Obama a year and I'm sure he'll regulate certain foods too, just make everyone eat better
He just gone done regulating cars, so I'm sure food is just around the corner.

Corrupt leaders?

Not denying this here. But at least ours don't go on a genocide and murder millions (Muhammad, Stalin, Po Pot, Saddam?)

[Casval]

They have been helping Iran with their nuclear ambitions as well, who in turn has connections to many terrorist groups. Two lunatics helping one another out can be a cause for some concern when they have access to WMDs.

LOL, North Korea didn't even have a real diplomatic relationship with Iran until Bush started grouping them together with that Axis of Evil bull. In psychology we call this behavioral confirmation. You stereotype someone into a certain expectation, and eventually they will become that if you treat them in that way. Besides, Iran is hardly the biggest threat in the Middle East. People in the US like to think Iran is a country with no freedoms, when in fact they're one of the more progressive, free nations in the area, considering they have open elections. Their intelligence agency does fund some terrorist groups, but what country over there doesn't?

Wrong the only time we've ever gotten him to fulfill any obligations whatsoever was when we threatened and subsequently followed through on things like trade embargoes in conjunction with their main supporters in Russia/China, even that lunatic has enough sense to understand that with no backing at all their little country won't survive for him to continue his brainwashing of the people.

LOL, North Korea didn't even have a real diplomatic relationship with Iran until Bush started grouping them together with that Axis of Evil bull. In psychology we call this behavioral confirmation. You stereotype someone into a certain expectation, and eventually they will become that if you treat them in that way.

And wrong again--like I said, the most obligations fulfilled were through peaceful non-nuclear related negotiations (see 1998-2007 negotiations with South Korea).

Think about this, what war did we just exit at that period in time? Then look over at what became of our former ally the USSR... still with me? Remember the communist witchhunts here in the states? Yea alot of it was a load of crap propagated by people like McCarthy so that he could have him time in the limelight but it was based on the capture of Russian spies. During that time we started a war of ideals, between our form of Democracy and those like it VS communist states like Russia and later China. It was indeed partially because of China's turn to Communism that sparked conflicts in Korea and Vietnam due to the fear it provoked. Despite what you may think about South Korea then, consider the current situation. South Korea has prospered, North Korea has been stagnate. South Korea's people enjoy a great deal of freedom, North Korea's people are forced to worship their leader and their children are subjected to brainwashing sessions daily in their "schools" to convince them the west is bad and Kim Jon Il is kami (for irony

How is this any excuse? Gen. MacArthur wanted to nuke North Korea and China when he was in power. How do you think the idea of that resonates with them today?

And why do you think the Communists took power in China? Because after WWII, China was completely ignored by the Western powers while it underwent a nasty civil war. In the meanwhile, the United States decided that they would pour all this aid into Japan, an aggressor nation, and turn them into a puppet state for political gain. You're talking like the Korean War and Vietnam War were noble endeavors--what is this about "saving" people from communism that Americans believe in so much? If you look at a list of emerging Eastern Asian communist regimes at the time: North Korea, China, North Vietnam--all were reactionary movements to imperialism and dictatorialism that were actually much LESS brutal and much MORE fair than their non-communist counterparts. The American policy, unfortunately, failed to recognize that in fact, communists can be human too, and decided that in a war of ideology, anything but communism was better, even if they turned out to be much worse.

[DarkNemesis]

Bush started grouping them together with that Axis of Evil bull.

If the shoe fits, wear it. N Korea is evil, as is Iran. Any country that strives to promote the destruction of humanity and freedom is evil imo. Noth Korea and Iran (as well as a handful of other countries) fit this mold perfectly.

So stating so is only stating the truth, which sadly, most people are too afraid to hear. Or they are afraid it may "offend" someone. That is the real bull here.

You're talking like the Korean War and Vietnam War were noble endeavors

I have real issues with this statement, not because your against both of those wars, but because it's empty and one-sided. Any endeavor that sacrifices ones own life for the freedom of others is indeed noble. Nuf said.

North Korea is a bastion of hope against American bullying. Also, the US talks about "interventions" in foreign countries all the time. But that's okay, right, because your country is magically righteous, as opposed to others, which are run by evil madme.
Quote:

LOLOLOLOLOLOL.....

Bastion of hope? Did you get that from Jim wacko himself? Again, your missing the point. We are allied with South Korea, the North's main enemy, so it is our duty to see to their safety and security. Also, by specifically addressing the U.S. and threatening them, they have brought us into this mess, so we have every right to search their ships.

And if a baby is running around with a loaded pistol, I hope to God you will do the responsible and decent thing and kindly take away his toy. N Korea is the same, they have not shown to use nuclear power in a safe and decent fashion, and have instead threatened and modern ww3 should anyone tell them to shut the hell up and stop bullying people.

[jamn455]

Hey, at least this time we know that North Korea has weapons of mass destruction.

[Casval]

If the shoe fits, wear it. N Korea is evil, as is Iran. Any country that strives to promote the destruction of humanity and freedom is evil imo. Noth Korea and Iran (as well as a handful of other countries) fit this mold perfectly.

I want you to tell exactly when and where any North Korean leader said he wanted to destroy humanity.

I have real issues with this statement, not because your against both of those wars, but because it's empty and one-sided. Any endeavor that sacrifices ones own life for the freedom of others is indeed noble. Nuf said.

And if a baby is running around with a loaded pistol, I hope to God you will do the responsible and decent thing and kindly take away his toy. N Korea is the same, they have not shown to use nuclear power in a safe and decent fashion, and have instead threatened and modern ww3 should anyone tell them to shut the hell up and stop bullying people.

Find me any quote where NK has threatened WW3. ANY. In fact, if you actually open your eyes and SEARCH, they're doing it largely as a justification of the US holding their own nukes in South Korea.

[DarkNemesis]

First, look up the word "noble". I'm pretty sure it doesn't include blowing yourself to hell.

I want you to tell exactly when and where any North Korean leader said he wanted to destroy humanity.

I said "promote", not openly declare, although Iran/Iraq has done this, N Korea has yet to.

And wth are you defending N. Korea?

Find me any quote where NK has threatened WW3. ANY. In fact, if you actually open your eyes and SEARCH, they're doing it largely as a justification of the US holding their own nukes in South Korea.

Did you actually read some of the statements N. Korea said before answering to this thread? It's starting to look like you didn't. And I'm not saying they themselves are trying to do this. It's more of their actions that could lead to those repercussions, God forbid.

First off, we have shown to use them in a safe and decent matter, that is why we have every right to have such weapons and they have no right to have them. Actually, it's not a right, but whatever.

[Luftwaffles]

I know some North Koreans. It doesn't sound like a fun place, I hope it self-implodes and all the people are freed.

[CryptLord1234]

First, look up the word "noble". I'm pretty sure it doesn't include blowing yourself to hell.

In his eyes, he's giving up his life to free his people from American persecution. So, your own use of the word noble is wrong, or you're contradicting yourself.

Did you actually read some of the statements N. Korea said before answering to this thread? It's starting to look like you didn't. And I'm not saying they themselves are trying to do this. It's more of their actions that could lead to those repercussions, God forbid.

Well, if they're out there, go ahead and put them up. Should be easy enough. And do what he asks you to find before you make him go search, eh?

[DarnYak]

Time to Godwin this thread.

I think those of you defending NK are so blinded by your hatred of America that you would have supported Muhammad in WW2. Which makes arguing with the lot of you utterly pointless.

DarnYak

[Casval]

First, look up the word "noble". I'm pretty sure it doesn't include blowing yourself to hell.

Even Clint Eastwood has portrayed Japanese kamikaze fighters as being noble. And, I don't know if you've watched many Hollywood movies, but there are plenty of kamikaze/suicide bombers in them--see Independence Day, a movie all about self-sacrifice for others' freedom.

I said "promote", not openly declare, although Iran/Iraq has done this, N Korea has yet to.

Quotes yo.

And wth are you defending N. Korea?

Because you made a thread about it!

Did you actually read some of the statements N. Korea said before answering to this thread? It's starting to look like you didn't. And I'm not saying they themselves are trying to do this. It's more of their actions that could lead to those repercussions, God forbid.

Are you aware you live in a country that just went on a crusade across the Middle East looking for a single guy?

First off, we have shown to use them in a safe and decent matter, that is why we have every right to have such weapons and they have no right to have them. Actually, it's not a right, but whatever.

LOL. The US is also the ONLY country to have used them in a war, period. You'd prefer for North Korea to also demonstrate that they can as well?