Tyrant OP

[DarkNemesis]

Glacial Tyrant's shield is overpowered. It needs to be nerfed. I guess the main reason it's so powerful is the fact that Tyrant is equal to or greater than Gravel in strength, combing that with a shield that can match Alexander's, get's slightly insane.

Not much else to say other than atm, it's totally ridiculous.

I'd really like a clean, engaging discussion on this, so please post something on the subject. Actually, I'll make a poll as well.

Thoughts?

[Discombobulator]

Code: Select all

Hi Disco!

Incidentally, I disagree with the opening post in this thread.

[Luftwaffles]

Provide us with some numbers Dark, and compare with similar spells (Rune Shield, Eidoloin's shield). It would probably strengthen your argument if you found Tyrant's shield was more useful then the other two shields, and his overall stat gain (STR/INT/AGI) was greater then the heroes you're comparing him to. So go grab the spell numbers and get it all together.

This is not saying that you are wrong, you just as of now are relying on us knowing what you're talking about (and I lament that we do not). So pull out some ###s and we'll take a serious look.

[DarkNemesis]

Yeah, I meant to. I'll get back to you guys later, with some numbers and stuff.

[Discombobulator]

[DarkNemesis]

Provide us with some numbers Dark, and compare with similar spells (Rune Shield, Eidoloin's shield). It would probably strengthen your argument if you found Tyrant's shield was more useful then the other two shields, and his overall stat gain (STR/INT/AGI) was greater then the heroes you're comparing him to. So go grab the spell numbers and get it all together.

This is not saying that you are wrong, you just as of now are relying on us knowing what you're talking about (and I lament that we do not). So pull out some ###s and we'll take a serious look.

Ok, did some testing.

Here's the results:

Shield blocks as is...

1] 232 dmg and 8 dps
2] 320 dmg and 14 dps
3] 406 dmg and 23 dps
4] 501 dmg and 27 dps
5] 595 dmg and 33 dps
6] 697 dmg and 41 dps

This is without any added INT (or AGI), its just straight base stats. Oh, and I was lvl 27, had 50 INT and 32 AGI, that's natural too.

Now I'm pretty sure (I may test RK and Eidolon as well) Alexander's blocks around 600 (at rank 6) without added INT. Yes, it applies 50% instead of 35%, which is only a 15% gain. But GT's is getting and additional 100 dmg blocked as well as an insane dps (41). And Alexander doesn't have the privilege of having an additional 20 natural strength (400 HP) simply for being a Tank. Gravel and Tyrant do.

Case in point, it needs a nerf. If you stacked INT and Strength he'd easily become unkillible. I'm already having nightmares seeing him running around with a health orb and some INT rings X_X

Oh, and while were on the subject of Tyrant, his mana regen needs a big buff, as is, it returns 25ish mana at rank 3 with a rank 3 talent, which is like 60 crystal. It's not even worth getting anymore, except maybe for the health regen or stun. Leave the health regen, its really good as it is, but the mana part needs a major buff. Or the crystal cost needs a heavy nerf, one of the two.

Don't get me wrong, I love Tyrant, he's one of my favorites, but he has some serious balance issues.

[Kalrithus]

I agree that he would be very hard to kill, but like other shields It is still susceptible to expunge powa and other such dispels. Also with his speed and collision size the way it is he is vulnerable to kiting and the liberal use of ranged nukes on him without fear of reprisal, (outside of arctic cataclysm which is another story >>)

[DarkNemesis]

Yes, I agree Kalrithus, but we are talking 50 INT here. Can you imagine now 120 INT and 4k HP later? And no, it's not unreasonable, I've seen heavily geared Tyrants in many Bnet games. He acquires gold quite easily.

Too, your talking about like 3 skills that can dispell it, out of around 90. Those seem like darn good chances to me.

[Kalrithus]

Well if we want to get down to it there are a number of combos for ehavy damage that will remove the shield just like any other, (I.E. Infernal binding + any magic nuke, Vengeance etc) Also the shield does not block hero damage as far as I am aware, and requires talents in order to block normal unit damage. If it is deemed that it needs a nerf, perhaps increase its mana cost to reduce the # of usages while out in the field and to prevent spam stacking to the same degree.
My 2 cents.

[Kalrithus]

Just played Tyrant extensively and found that his shield was falling off pretty regularly while I was doing mai tanking thing like normal. Even constant stacking of the shield only extended its lifespan by not so much. In terms of pure survival I'd say rune shield far outclasses this simply because of the higher stack rate (and I believe lower mana cost).

[DarnYak]

Also the shield does not block hero damage as far as I am aware, and requires talents in order to block normal unit damage.

Just to clarify, it blocks half of any damage by default, and can be talented to block 100% of unit damage only. Thus one of the big differences between this and Rune Shell: You're still taking damage even under it.

Also, why the hell is this a conclave thread?

DarnYak

[Luftwaffles]

I'll try playing him in a game and post a replay later or something.

No idea why it was posted in Conclave- feel special I guess? But why the fuck was Boxxy brought into this .

[DarkNemesis]

Also, why the hell is this a conclave thread?

OK, I am really surprised to see this. Here is what you said Yak, and based off of that information, I assume you know why it is here and not in the normal balance topic?

The purpose of this forum is for more organized, clean discussions of major balance changes, particularly massive changes planned for 1.12e. This forum is not intended to limit input to a few users, rather just filter it so it doesn't get as off topic as most other threads are prone to do without heavy moderation.

However, I see you moved it. So I'm assuming you'll deal with any flamers that will try in derail it? I made it very clear in the beginning of the post that I wanted a clean and honest discussion about this issue. And not turn it into and 5 page thread of useless shit (the Yo thread for example).

In terms of pure survival I'd say rune shield far outclasses this simply because of the higher stack rate

I disagree here. I assume your talking about the CD, right? Meh, from what I could tell, the CD for Tyrant's shield was pretty low. And again, while your losing a 15% stack bonus, your gaining 40+ dps and and extra 100 based dmg blocked. Plus you add Tyrant's insane health, the shield talent, and health acquired from ice crystals, and it becomes plain scary.

I'll test RK someone to compare the two more extensively.

[DarkNemesis]

Here are the results for RK's shield as follows:


1] 137 @ 35 mana
2] 232 @ 60 mana
3] 338 @ 85 mana
4] 431 @ 110 mana
5] 535 @ 135 mana
6] 645 @ 160 mana

Although the stats basically even out (with GT achieving around 50 more health blocked), the overall comparison (to me) seems to favor GT considerably. Too, the INT bonus modifier is significantly more generous to the Tyrant's shield than Alexander's. And of course, lets not forget the 41 dps granted as well, which has an AGI modifier to boot. I didn't get the mana cost for Tyrant's shield so I cant compare directly etc, but that seems to be the lest of the concern here. And in the end, the only few factors that favor Alexander are A) Possibly a lower mana cost, though I'm am sure it's nothing even worth noting B) the 50% block instead of 35% C) And possibility of quicker, repeated stacks, again, slightly iffy. While the Tyrant has several, notable advantages, including: A) His massive amounts of heath B) Generous INT modifier bonus C) Lucrative cohesion with other spells to allow for unparalleled survival D) a AGI-based dps effect that easily matches some of the best in the game. Not only this, but the Tyrant has a higher INT gain than Alexander, and by level 27, I had 50 (natural) INT on Tyrant, with Alexander, 43. Paltry, yes, but just another bonus towards this overpowered skill.

[Edit] I'll get the mana cost for GT's shield later, and may even test Eidolon. Though he isn't in the uber tanking class and doesn't concern me as much.

[Kalrithus]

He has I believe the lowest base agility in the game and one of the worst growth rates, unless you are stacking agil his shield's damage isn't all that scary, its useful yes but not exactly groundbreaking especially compared to his other spells, also because Rune Shield retain 50% of the previous shell it will stack higher and faster. Because Alexander has most of his skills modified by int, there is a greater chance of someone stacking int on him or buying int with crystal after talents, while GT mainly benefits from str with some side effects coming from agility. I can see the potential for GT to be quite a strong hero, but I don't think at this point in time I can consider him OP when I take a look at several other heroes.

Edit: On the subject of the mana cost of the shield, it is fairly high especially at rank3+ and unless that is all you are using, the shield won't get to stack very high and will fall off fairly quickly in combat.