Acid Reaver

[DarkNemesis]

I think I've complained about this before, but after playing Acid Reaver I noticed he is lacking in some areas, not the uber-watch-out-its-the-tank-from-hell we all were use to. Now overall, his stat gains are good, and his attack and armor are fitting. His skills however...

Caustic Breath got a heavy nerf from Yak, too heavy. Now its hard to deal +600 (enough to kill footmen) without having hords of Str rings. While Rue and Gravel are dealing heavy dmg with Rock and MS (I know, know, MS is OP). Even so, Scarab even hits ridiculously hard with Heal talent. Without added Int. Even Nightmare can one-cast creeps at lvl 4ish. Add a higher strength modifier to Caustic Breath.

Acid Sheath Good Tanking ability, but kind of pointless past a few lvls. Between Caustic and Bane's high ability to simply melee units...why get it?

Bane needs something in the way of either healing or further armor or attack reduction. He's been too demoralized for true tanking. More of a hybrid DPS hero. Kind of struggling in the middle. This post actually could collaborate with Ion's views of Alexander. But eh.

So thoughts? Or am I the only one who pity's Bane?

Oh, I was having a bug with Caustic Breath. It was saying it dealt 650 dmg, while footman have 610, yet when I cast it, they still had 10 hit points left, then would suddenly die as if they had a DoT on them (no, I didn't have Sheath either). Strange for sure, just a fyi Yak should you happen to skim through. Not sure what it is, but it happened numerous times, and I kept testng it to make sure it wasn't just me or something.

[Perhaps]

Caustic Breath is still great. Caustic Breath was uber before Yak fixed it's cone hit area which made it over the top, I consider such a thing as a counter balance towards fixing his cone area hit. Acid Reaver with Caustic Breath alone right now can decimate army, hurt heroes really bad that get in his face, while chunking down towers. Acid Sheath helps make him tankier, encouragement is a nice push additive, and charge is a nice interrupt and good for getting on top to hit with caustic. Caustic Breath is one of the shortest cooldown AoE moves that's instant damage, and is also one of few AoE moves that can hurt buildings.

The move that I feel needs a buff is Acid Rain, with caustic breath, I feel little purpose using it with (that could be caustic breath I could be casting during that channeling).

[Ion]

Something that would help him greatly I think is to increase the functionality of Charge. At the moment he has four solid skills- Acid Sheath is great, Caustic is still good and Encouragement is what it is (good). I think his ult when used properly is great.

The problem is while Charge is useful, it kind of lacks functionality when heroes aren't around. It's a fair argument to say it's a pure hero counter, but it also makes Bane a rather lame target for getting stuck.

I'll throw the idea out that the Trample talent for Charge should come with the skill. Instead, add a talent that gives a % chance to stun units who get trampled over during Charge. In addition, make Charge a point-target spell. Have its distance maybe based on Agi. (perhaps with a cap). Take away the magic break only for when you target a point, a unit but not a hero and have Bane run in a straight line to that point- perhaps randomly shifting side to side during to maximize units hit. When you target a hero, it still homes in and does the magic break and is the normal charge skill.

This is just an idea, but it would increase Bane's flexibility in skill choice and would give Charge an extra kick and use in directly controlling damage dealt to spawns.

[DarnYak]

I have big issues with Charge, small issues with Sheath, and mixed opinions on Acid Rain (its actually quite helpful sieging, but could probably be a bit more useful non-sieging), so all these things are more or less on my list alread. Oh, and Encouragement already has a buff on the heal part, so assuming it becomes worthwhile it'll be nicer.

DarnYak

[Ion]

I think if Charge was given Trample it would work as a good port for Bane, and the fact it could also home in on heroes would make Bane very scary.

[Leek]

I agree with Ion, I think trample should be innate.

Also, MS isn't really OP, it just hits with another melee attack, ZOMG WERE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!

[DarnYak]

If charge were given trample, it would effectively just be a slightly more limited Dash.

DarnYak

[DarkNemesis]

I agree with Yak, I've never like charge or the talent for it. Something needs to be done. How about a return of Dragon's Blood ?

[Leek]

It would still be more usefull then it is now

The change doesn't necessarily need to be trample, but I think something should be done.

[Ion]

It'd be a more multi-purposeful Dash since you'd be able to still target people. Essentially what it is now is a delayed limited Blink (to right infront of the target) + it breaks Yak's brand of magic shells. If there was an option to target it anywhere else, it would duel as an extra damage-dealer and would give Bane the opportunity to not get sandwich pwned between units- which, occasionally happens.

Outside of Charge I'm not entirely sure what else he'd need. A tiny Caustic buff? Maybe but maybe not.

[Something]

Acid Reaver is fine... Are you sure you're talking about the same guy? The moves sound the same, but your complaints sound otherwise.

Caustic Breath currently decimates army and buildings, more so than other AoE heros get. It runs on a short cooldown, and is actually fairly mana easy with an orb. It works as a good hero target too, except for its short range. Being a strength based move, the acid reaver can easily get over 4k hp, alongside a near 700 damage aoe ability that hits buildings with a short ass cooldown.. Come on, why does this need a boost?

Acid Sheath is awesome at all levels. I use this as supplemental damage to grab army kills at ALL levels, and it's great protection against melee swings, reducing their damage by a decent bit. It's decent duration coupled with the ability to place it on friendly heros makes this ability pretty damn good.

Encouragement is currently not working as intended, but when it is working again, it will be awesome. This move needs no change except for a fix. Giving the Acid Reaver an attack speed boost coupled with his high physical damage allows him to further decimate buildings.

Charge is a one point wonder in my book. One point gives you the ability to interrupt targets. Rune Knight about to use Grand Rune? Not anymore! Aeromancess using her AoE? Nope! This is 1 point that is worth placing when needed! Any further levels are handy if you want to actually keep a target in place. Using it to advance on a target for an assault is also handy, again, only one point needed.

Acid Rain. Complete garbage. Sorry folks, if you think this is useful then you should gouge your eyes out. Placing points elsewhere gives you more ability to destroy bases and army than placing points here. Not only is it channeling (it can be interrupted!!!) it also doesn't really do enough damage. I could be using encouragement and whacking on buildings while using caustic breath to help destroy army or buildings or players during the process of using this ability. I never add to this. I'd rather have more useful skills.

-edit- fixed typo right here-
Dragon Roar, his innate, can be useful. I use it often to stun targets for support, and to help line up good shots with Caustic Breath. I use it often in attempts to stun heros, but usually proves a waste. It's a so-so ability, but given everything else the Acid Reaver has I think this is a fair trade and needs no changes.



Acid Reaver needs no boosts to any of his skills, except maybe Acid Rain, which might need replacing altogether. The problem I see though is his abilities are more than good enough as they currently are. He doesn't need more functionality.

[Ion]

I disagree with you Something on several points. Acid Rain is one of his better spells, because it essentially acts as AoE buffed-up termites. If you're ever in a favorable spawn push and you use it buildings are pretty much fucked.

Charge is useful only when heroes are nearby and there is only one or you are able to gank. Rune Shell actually recharges faster then Charge, and Bane has to be smart about when to use it since it can also put him in a very unfavorable position behind enemy lines. Also Tempest can be used between Charges. It is useful, but lacks the flexibility that other heroes have in using their skills.

I don't think Bane sucks, I just think Charge is one-dimensional. Bane's also not really that fast, so unless whoever you're targeting has low HP already or you have supplemental hero support, Charge and a Caustic at best will cause someone to retreat.

[DarkNemesis]

Don't get me wrong, I love Bane to death, but its just plain stupid when Scarab (without even trying) can wipe any push with vastly less-leveled skills. I.E. Heal (talent and Nightmare both wipe like mad mothers with only 4ish points into them and minimal Int, wth is up with that?. While Bane struggles just to break the 600 mark yet having over 200 str. A small boost into Caustic again and he'll be perfect (like he use to be ;()

Oh, I need a consensus from people, how do you guys lvl Bane? And what do you buy him. Is it mass str all the way? or kinda a dmg/tanking hybrid? Int-based (like I've seen)? just curious for other styles of play.

For me, its generally:

6 into caustic
1-2 into sheath (maybe)
4-6 into Encourage
usually 2 into charge, for a whole second

Mix dmg and str rings usually. Skill orb+ encourage=mad mother dps'ing against towers (ult is great too, sorry Something). Crystal into attack and str, extra into dragon-roar-whatever -stun and int.

[Something]

Depends on the level.

Stormwail, Kedges (sometimes) and Candleburg all warrant the purchase and leveling of an orb of the magi to help with mana. Gloomreap I don't even bother, fountains are pretty available.

At one point or another, and not always after orb of magi is maxed (it sometimes doesn't get maxed), I start buying strength rings, and fill my entire inventory up. After I have all strength rings I upgrade them evenly, keeping their levels the same.

Now, depending on the situation I may get robes of resist or something else that I may benefit from, but typically I can wipe army and fend off players just fine with the above items.

Crystal spending goes into at least 1 armor. If I feel I need more depending on the heros I am agains't, I'll get it. I've pumped crystals into strength and agility (agility for runspeed). It all depends on what I need to keep myself alive. Spending crystals into strength is more for extra damage to heros and buildings rather than army.


Also, who cares if charge is only useful for heros? How is that bad? I play a game where over half of the abilities I get only work on players and not monsters. I think that's cool, nothing wrong there. You may think it needs more functionality, but I certainly don't. It is great for interrupting ALL abilities that can be interrupted. I only listed two (Grand Rune (not rune shell)) and Tempest). I shouldn't have to list every ability available to give you an idea. Interrupting is a very powerful ability, and it shouldn't be taken for granted. It is also irrelevant if some moves recharge before Charge does, because this is a team game and many people can interrupt. Also, stopping an ability just once can sometimes be enough to hinder people, especially if you get an ultimate (like wail and grand rune).

As for Acid Rain, I haven't really used it in a long time, and since people seem to be liking it, I'll try it again and see how it goes. I was never satisfied with it though the numerous times I tried it.

Also, it doesn't matter if you only cause them to retreat and don't kill them. If they can't stop you from destroying a base, does it matter if they're alive? Many people have gotten away from me because of caustic breaths short range, but I still destroyed the bases.

So not all heros are equal in strength. Big deal. They also aren't all equal in weaknesses either. You want this to be a stale game or what?

[Perhaps]

Charge is useful only when heroes are nearby

Well shit, I guess Ethereal Healing can heal army, ethereal binding trashes army, sigil of stunning pwns towers, expunge protects you against that wide array of afflictions spawns apply to heroes, and not to mention Devouring Plague allowing me to harass and get health and mana from the spawns.

[Ion]

Well shit, I guess Ethereal Healing can heal army, ethereal binding trashes army, sigil of stunning pwns towers, expunge protects you against that wide array of afflictions spawns apply to heroes, and not to mention Devouring Plague allowing me to harass and get health and mana from the spawns.

This is a really poor attempt at trying to infer that by me saying Charge is one-dimensional is redundant since you could apply this to many other skills ('ethereal binding trashes army'? ). I would agree, except Charge is not a very high heal + protective Banish or incredible DoT on heroes. Using Purge is a rather poor example of how a skill should be built, since Yak has said several times he plans on replacing it at some point. Of the four skills you pointed out, only Sigil really works as a good contrast to Charge- one-dimensional stun only on heroes. However, the RK has three damaging AoE skills in addition- Bane has one, two if you consider his sheath to be a decent DPS AoE (but it's nothing compared to the active damage output of the RK). Yes Caustic is fast, and having Charge do damage would just make him scarier and more fun to play with, haha.

Giving him some additional thing to Charge just increases his flexibility in spell choice and makes him more dynamic.

[Perhaps]

Caustic Breath IS the Rune Knights 3 AoEs. Its instant, good damage, and something people seem to be missing is it as a short as hell cooldown. On top of this caustic breath hurts buildings. Syphon Glyph can be dispelled, destroyed, or walked out of, and can't hurt towers along with about a standardish cooldown duration. Hazard slash hits like two out of ten targets because of its dynamics, or at least it seems that way, doesn't get all that great of damage, requires a whole different modifier from the rest of his other skills and has an insanely long cooldown that makes it complete crap. Grand Rune may as well be written off unless you pack spell immunity every time or there's never a hero around.

[DarkNemesis]

I think perhaps won this round...

Hell, he's got me convinced.

RK is fine. Leave him be.

[Ion]

Caustic Breath IS the Rune Knights 3 AoEs. Its instant, good damage, and something people seem to be missing is it as a short as hell cooldown. On top of this caustic breath hurts buildings. Syphon Glyph can be dispelled, destroyed, or walked out of, and can't hurt towers along with about a standardish cooldown duration.

...Where did you get those facts?

Siphon Glyph DOES hit towers in fact. It has a 10 second cooldown to Caustic's eight and a larger AoE. It would be stupid to dispel it when one attack does it, however it takes 1-2s to launch that attack and depends on whether Siphon is reachable. Realistically, Siphon will get 2-3s of absorption (in some cases of luck and skill 1s); which assuming Level 25 Bane/RK no items or upgrades and Level 3 in both skills, translates to a difference in damage of...just under half.

Calculate it for yourself. At Level 25 RK has an Int. of 49, Siphon does mana-siphoned(4 + (0.02*Int.)) [Level 3 Siphons 14/s] mana and Bane has 78 Str. with Caustic dealing 77 + 1.8*Str. Assuming 1.5 seconds channeling (this is not actually real, it'd be 1 or 2 but is used to identify a relative mid-point assuming randomness) Siphon will deal 104.58. Caustic will deal 217.4. Sounds good?

'Cept in a real game, you are unlikely to be perfect on your shots and the fluctation between 1-3/4s Siphons will happen more often. When that happens, Siphon Glyph actually does around the same damage as Caustic (only slightly less). With even just one point in Sigil, that's an extra +2 seconds on Siphon, drained mana on Bane's part (neither he or the RK have tons to spend, though the RK has aprox. between 20-40 more throughout the game) and relatively the same amount of damage dealt in a larger AoE. In addition Sigil also has a 10 second cooldown; meaning that essentially RK with two spells could easily deal 0.95ish of Bane's damage. Hazard Slash compounds this number, and damage increased by Imbued makes it : |

Hazard slash hits like two out of ten targets because of its dynamics, or at least it seems that way, doesn't get all that great of damage, requires a whole different modifier from the rest of his other skills and has an insanely long cooldown that makes it complete crap.

Deals 1.15x (aprox.) the damage of Caustic, has 3x the cooldown. Which means gross damage output is around 2.6 of Hazard. Hazard's range is about the same as Caustic, can actually get longer with his talent. So, no. Far from crap, you- as you say, just don't understand HS very well, probably because it seems you haven't really played RK that much. Also adds an armor reducing attack, bonus damage and magic reduction (putting it at parity with Acid Sheath, however the reduction from RK is not dispellable).

Grand Rune may as well be written off unless you pack spell immunity every time or there's never a hero around.

You'd be surprised how often RK can get GR off, but indeed it has no place here, since RK wins in damage output with 2 of his other AoE skills alone.

I think perhaps won this round... Hell, he's got me convinced.

You already don't agree with me, so there was no convincing needed, and you think wrong.

Charge's stun is negligable. It is actually less at Level 6 then RK's stun, but it does port Bane to the hero which I *suppose* makes up for it. However, RK's Sigil also does damage and has a shorter cooldown. Adding trample damage and talent for stunning units along the way would make it godly.

[Dekar]

1on1 Ion?

I usually go for for Breath + Charge.

Charge is an amazing skill!
You wait behind your spawns for the little caster hero to come forward to cast a spell.
You cast Charge, the massive dragon body takes a bit to prepare for the massive onslaught, but its already to late ...
The enemy hero is already retreating, but its no use.
Bane dashes forward, homing in like no modern day missile could do it.
Charging over the whole 2500 zoom screen, landing the stunning blow.
A quick breath, some hits with your weapon, and the threat is gone.


Items: Mana Orb as high as needed to start with, Leather or Knight armor, later switching mana with damage orb, str rings ( I think, not that I play out every hero build before / remember them ).

[Ion]

Sure we can, but I'm sure you'd admit if Charge came with a fun trample and was castable when heroes weren't around it'd just make it more fun to use.

Once my exams are over I'd be happy to destroy your Bane maybe I'll even get a mouse and fix my hotkeys just for the occasion xD.

[DarkNemesis]

Lol

Just play RK Dekar, according to Ion he's vastly overpowered. Though I suspect Ion doesn't know wth he's doing if he can't take an RK.

[Kalrithus]

Lol Dark you really need to play on B-net with us simply to prove to us how good/bad you are, but if we are going strictly by what you post on here, seems you would be leaning over into the bad category.

[DarkNemesis]

I shouldn't have to prove anything. And my LANS are just as viable, and several of my friend would play on b-net, only they view the lot of you as arrogant bastards. Not necessarily me. And your the one who's new here, not me.

Too, I guess with pirated copies they don't work too well online, and my internet is ify. Plus, I don't know if I would play in clannies if I could.

[Kalrithus]

I'd imagine their outlook is probably shaped on our responses to many of your, less than informed, post. This combined with the high level of sarcasm and "other" personality quirks tend to turn off "outsiders". Also I am not new, I've been around for a long time just under many different names. Its too bad about the whole pirated copy and ify internet though, would have loved to play you just to see if your as good as you seem to think.