Rune Knight

[Ion]

The Facts

Let's take a look.

Stats:
- Rune Knight stats are 22/11/17 (S/A/I), has 540 HP, 330 MP and deals 52-62 damage at Level 1.
- Has aprox. 2.3/1/1.35 (S/A/I) growth per level.
- Attacks in melee range (90-110)
Skills:
Rune of Fortification (Innate)
35 mana, Abjuration
- Increases target building's armor by 12 and gives it 2HP/s regen for 600 seconds.
Siphon Glyph (Normal skill)
50(+14*LVL) mana, Evocation
- 6/10/14/18/22/26 p/s mana drain for x seconds, dealing 4 + Int.(0.02) times the amount of mana absorbed by the Glyph in an AoE (affects buildings).
- Range aprox. 300-500
- Interruptable by attacking the Glyph (or dispels, have not bothered to try that)
Sigil of Stunning (Normal skill)
50(+14*LVL) mana, Enchantment
- 50/80/110/140/170/200 damage, stuns for 2/2/3/3/4/4 seconds.
- Ranged aprox. 300-500.
Rune Shell (Normal skill)
35(+25*LVL) mana, Abjuration
- 120/200/280/360/440/520 + Int(1/1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8/2) damage is absorbed by this shield. If a unit already has Rune Shell, only 50% of the shell stacks onto the unit.
- Ranged aprox. 200-400
- Can be dispelled by attacks damaging 'magic shields' (Bane's Charge, GT's Shatter and completely dispelled by DS' Purge).
Imbued Equipment/Hazard Slash (Normal skill)
45(+17*LVL) mana, Evocation
- +4/8/12/16/20/24% spell resistance, +4/6/8/10/12/14 damage, reduces armor of units attacked by 4/7/10/13/15/17 for 5 seconds.
- Hazard Slash deals 60/85/110/135/160/185 + Str.(1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2/2.25) damage in a line (about 400 range?)
Grand Rune (Ultimate)
150(+60*LVL) mana, Evocation
- 400/600/800/1000 + Int.(2/3/4/5) damage in a large AoE (increases per level) after 4 seconds of channeling.
- Interruptable with a stun.

In order to avoid making this post longer then it needs to be, I've included in the information for two other heroes we can take a look at. The two heroes were chosen largely because they are tanks on their respective sides; not because they're 'mirrors' of the RK (only one Orc hero resembles that, vaguely). The two are Scarab (UC) and Sorrow Liege (GB). Gravel and Elder Treant could've applied given they're both tanks who are good siegers, but I chose not to include them because it would take too long to get to my point. Acid Reaver was originally included, but I got lazy and I can make my point with these two.

[Ion]

Comparison

AoE
The sitch
- RK has three AoE nukes; one instant, one fully interruptable (Ult.) and one semi-interruptable (can shoot Siphon Glyphs but they drain mana fast/have initial mana). If RK gets an AMS only nets can stop GR.
- Scarab has two AoE nukes; one instant but incredibly gimped range (Ult.) with high cooldown and mana cost and one that is DoT + Sleep. Scarab also has a talent that gives him AoE on Lifewave, but it's hard to aim and does not have a huge AoE at the target point (but an AoE nonetheless).
- Rue has no direct AoE spells but has an AoE damaging aura (does slightly less then Siphon does per point of mana) and can make units run in an AoE (when talented: increases move speed for units and reduces it for heroes).
Who wins
- RK's Hazard Slash does more damage then Nightmare and does far more damage then Mortal Strike if it were not broken. In fact, at max level Hazard Slash deals 15 more damage then Mortal Strike, has a larger range and also gives the RK 24% magic resistance, +14 damage and a -17 armor reducing attack. Hazard Slash; a throwback AoE nuke passive, is pretty superior.
- RK has flexibility in choosing whether to target a mana drain (combined with a stun), using his Ult. (if you happen to not be where he is and you're more then a lane apart, chances are he can get it off; 600 + 2x. Int at Level 1) and can also get an imbapants throwback spell-resistance, damage increasing, armor reducing-attack AoE line better-then-Mortal-strike nuke. Combined, Scarab and Rue have the same amount of AoE spells as RK, except none are as effective in AoE as Hazard Slash (Lifewave nuke perhaps but good luck aiming it as easy as RK).
- Although Scarab can probably override one of RK's shield with a full mana smite, the fact that the Scarab's AoE requires him to get buddy buddy with the RK or other units in combat puts him at a positional disadvantage (stunned, can get caught between troops and mana drained, etc.) Lifewave talent makes him more dynamic, but Lifewave isn't very flexible unlike other AoE spells (it's hard to aim).
- Rue is almost a complete non-factor in AoE, relying on Shadow Bastion's Barrage attack (which is low) or his Despair to send units flying. His damaging aura is okay but isn't even close to dealing the damage Siphon Glyph can do with a 3 second drain.

RK clearly wins. Scarab is respectable, but is still nowhere near RK.

Tanking
The sitch
- Rue has a great magic reduction aura with 30% spell resistance at max level. Combined with 60% spell resistance and half damage absorbing by his minions, Rue can effectively absorb a helluva lot of magic. Unfortunately, this compares to the RK if he maxes out Hazard Slash and Rune Shell (which can absorb most of a nuke at max, if not all of it- on one cast). God forbid they both get Robes of Resistance and pair up together.
- Rune Shell at max level is a free 520 + 2x. Int (for those wondering, at around Level 30 when this is available, with no upgrades this would be around 56; so 632 shell). With one shell, that's basically a free full absorption of a nuke on the other team. Rune Shell's mana cost becomes irrelevent if the RK farms enough money (:lol:) to get a Circlet or Mana orb, in which he can spam it very easily. Being nigh-undispellable and combined with his high spell resistance, RK can easily- even with only 2-3 points in this skill, tank and absorb most of what the other team has to offer.
- Scarab can reduce attack damage by a max of 33, but against a Level 1 RK this means he's still getting damaged for 20 per hit. That's only Level 1. Scarab's passive also does not come with an armor reducing attack, an AoE nuke better in damage-terms then Mortal Strike and increased magic resistance. Painfully underwhelming compared to Hazard Slash/Imbued Equipment. It's a joke and a rip off.
- Rue has excellent passives (Auras are fantastic) but unfortunately he does not have a Rune Shell. His spawns can absorb up to 50% of his damage, which makes up perhaps for the lack of a Rune Shell and can be almost completely spell resistant (assuming they stack), which makes Rue about as hard to kill as RK (perhaps slightly more since he doesn't have to rely on mana).
Who wins
- Assuming magic reduc's stack, I'd say Rue. His flexibility in choosing what to tank, highly spell-resistance damage-absorbing minions, high HP regen, awesome aura choice and Despair (taking the pressure off him) put him in the best place for tanking.
- RK comes in a close second; Rune Shells is fucking fantastic, high damage output and AoE means spawns probably aren't around long enough to deal tons of damage to him.
- Scarab is pathetic compared to these two. Although his passive will absorb a good chunk of spawn damage, vs. heroes he'll still take a considerable amount. The fact he can still tank effectively masks his dismal performance against these two in tanking quality. Put side by side the RK would own the lane, Rue would frustrate the lane, and Scarab probably wouldn't die (but might come close). Choosing this passive also means the Scarab forgoes other spells (Smite, Lifewave) which are probably more useful.

Sieging
The sitch
- RK has two spells that can hit buildings (Siphon, GR) and has Rune Shell to compensate for lost life.
- Scarab doesn't really have much; Life Wave can heal troops, his ult can put him on crack for a bit but he still takes damage, and really the only way to maximize his ult is to be at low health (and to hope you have enough mana after using Smite and Life Wave to use it).
- Rue has great auras to help him out in attacking towers, and Shadow Bastion could bring in a lot of troops but by himself he essentially is relying on his minions and normal attack to bust towers up. In comparison, RK can use nukes (at the minimum, one interruptable nuke) but also has Rune Shell to prop him up when he's being attacked. Scarab can ult which increases his damage output and heals him.
Who wins

RK, easy. Rue comes in a close second, but his lack of nuking puts him at a disadvantage. Scarab would be very useful, and his ult makes him personally good at plowing towers and bases down, but again no easy AoE nuke and certainly not the tanking capacity of Rue or RK.

So what

At the moment, the RK just simply outclasses other heroes statistically and logistically. The RK has a choice of 4 nukes, three of which are AoE, one of which is fully interruptible if the teams goes through some trouble to get nets (not too bad) and one which is semi-interruptible. The problem is, there is a good likelihood Grand Rune can eventually get off if the RK times things right, and unfortunately for the other team this means massive AoE damage in addition to the already painful array of AoE spells he has.

The RK is clearly a much better crowd-controller then the heroes looked at here. He's second in tanking to Rue, but he also wins out completely in the other two catagories. In comparison to other more 'pure' crowd controllers, like Gravel or Acid Reaver, the RK compares quite well. He does more damage then the Acid Reaver's nuke with a throwback passive and compares to Gravel's nuke. That's just with Hazard Slash. Neither of those spells afford their heroes with spell resistance, bonus damage and an armor-reducing attack.

In terms of HP, RK gains similarly to other heroes but wins out with Rune Shell. Rune Shell is basically a free 300-600 health between Levels 15-30, and more if he's in base and can stack it. That is a very significant amount of health. Although to some extent it is counterable, it is by no means universal and without a DS or Bane, it is basically something you have to fight to get through. It absorbs significantly more damage then Scarab's passive (which even at 33 isn't really a huge deal) and is comparable to Rue's minions (Rue might win in total damage absorbable, but Rune Shell is flexible and can be cast on others as well).

[Ion]

Common arguments against nerfing RK

1. RK is supposed to absorb damage and be hard to kill. He absorbs damage well and is very hard to kill, therefore he does his job and doesn't need a nerf.
2. RK is supposed to be a good crowd-controller. He does this well, other heroes do not but that is not their purpose. RK therefore does not need a nerf.
3. Rune Shell is no longer imba cause three races have it. It is dispellable by certain heroes, you just need to combo properly vs. RK. It's your problem, not the RK's.
4. No problems with RK because S/A/I gain is comparable to other heroes.
5. Imbued Equipment needed a buff cause it was a boring passive and no one wanted to get it.

1. RK absorbs damage second best to Rue. Rue has no AoE nukes. RK has 3, plus a stun. RK has comparable (with Imbued) magic resistance, and the potential to get increased damage and an armor reducing attack as well. No other hero really compares to RK in this type of flexibility and overall dominance. RK is really alone in this aspect.
2. RK has 3 AoE nukes and can cast Rune Shell on himself and others around him. His crowd control is incredible. However, by the argument that other heroes are not meant to be good crowd controllers, please explain why they are given line AoE nukes similar to the RK but slightly worse. Caustic Breath loses to Hazard Slash. Rockslide nearly loses to Hazard Slash. Siphon Glyph wins out against both because it deals damage to towers, and RK can still use Hazard Slash. Clearly those spells are meant to be flexible, dominating spells as well. They are great spells. Why does the RK get two of them then (and let's not even talk about Grand Rune, since it outdoes them all), that are better?
3. Three heroes have Rune Shell. The other 20+ do not. Rune Shell remains an undispellable, high damage-absorbing skill that almost every RK gets. It hasn't changed, there's simply more of it in the game.
4. Also has better skills then almost any character in the game (Plight's Abber, the ability to fly, Rue and Holy Strike are some small exceptions). He has 5 desirable spells that any character would like. If smashes are to AoE, then the RK is the Ike of EotA.
5. Why does Hazard Slash outclass several other character's primary nukes, and also increase RK's magic resistance and gross damage output. In addition, the RK still has Rune Shell, a stun, a mana-draining tower-damaging nuke and a 600+ damage 4-second channel AoE nuke. Yes, Grand Rune is interruptible; but the moment you're not there, hammering away at the RK's shield endlessly, hoping for it all to go away it just takes one GR at Level 30 to pop two spawn waves and mercs.

The RK is imbalanced

Cry more, you all just love playing him- as I do, because you cannot do anything but kick ass with the RK. Yes, you have the occasional off-game with him. Yes, he dies sometimes, and in some games in the wrong hands he could die a lot. But generally, he does not die incredibly often, he gets a fair number of kills- unit, hero and tower, in a game and is easily one of EotA's most notable and well-liked characters to play.

Why?

'Cause he's imba and has received nothing but love and buffs. In fact, the RK was so great Yak built another one (GT).

The people who don't think RK's imba probably ignored most of this post (can't say I don't sympathize, a tl;dr if I ever made one), ran to the end and listed off things like 'how can you compare Scarab and RK', 'just buy nets and get interupts fuckin moron!' or 'RK is good, so what!'. Indeed, I fully expect people to bring out their statistical anomolies about this 'one time I bet RK and Rue' or 'well I've seen RK die, so you must be totally wrong' (fyi it's probable the RK will die, even on a team with Rue, and will occasionally lose, but I challenge you to statistically prove to me that they only have a standard chance of winning together played by people who've played the game more then 3 times). However, I could care less about these people, who probably also watch Fox News every night at 6 or feel uncomfortable when talking about Evolution or there being more then one religion.

The immense amount of collaboration, combing and cohesion required to fully dominate an RK is pretty much testament to how good he is. The fact there are necessities in comboing standard RK skills that take no creativity to use is pretty much telling about how imbalanced the RK is. He's easily the best hero in the game, has some of the best nukes in the game and tanks close to best in the game. And if you get RK and Rue on the same team, glhfgg.

I'm too bored to make detailed suggestions as how to fix the RK, I'll do it later but there's no easy way and probably a lot of people are upset I brought it up period.

*lifts up beer mug* Here's to the next 3 posts crying about minor statistical errors I made or crying foul and complaining.

[Reaper]

The simple truth, Ion, is that those who don't think he is imba

a)won't understand this information
b)won't read this information
c)will refuse to accept any ideas but their own preconceived ones despite all the evidence in the world

[DarnYak]

There's a few big points imo.

First, you're comparing RK's strengths and neglecting any advantages other heroes have in areas. That, and you try and fit skills into a hole they aren't designed for (Shadow Bastion? as AoE? really?)

Second, I dont see mention of Hazard Slash's high cooldown.

Third, Siphon Glyph can be negated with a single attack. I know this is disputed as irrelevant in many cases, but it can easily cut its power in half. Or you can run.

Finally, is it an arguement that RK is too strong, or the other heroes are weak? I know scarab needs some love (especialy his shell - which, btw, completley negates most spawn damage, which RK doesn't), not so much Rue.

DarnYak

[Ion]

First, you're comparing RK's strengths and neglecting any advantages other heroes have in areas. That, and you try and fit skills into a hole they aren't designed for (Shadow Bastion? as AoE? really?)

**EDIT: I realize I didn't answer this well. Shadow Bastion has an AoE attack, therefore it would contribute to Rue's overall AoE. It was not a claim that Shadow Bastion is AoE, it is that it contributes to Rue's overall AoE which isn't very good (non-existent compared to RK).

Second, I dont see mention of Hazard Slash's high cooldown.

A good point, let's take a close look at this.

Mortal Strike has a cooldown of about 10 seconds and Caustic Breath has a cooldown of about 8 seconds (could be 10 and mistiming on my part). In comparison, Hazard Slash has a cooldown of about 30 seconds (I had 35 but might be lower). On the surface, this suggests a fair balance since within the span of one Hazard Slash, Bane can use Caustic Breath almost 4 times, and Rue can use Mortal Strike 3 times. Let's put it to a test then.

This suggests that yes, Caustic Breath is a more effective spell then Hazard Slash, and my complaining about the inequalities between them was unjustified. However, the damage disparity really isn't as great and we'd like it to be. Bane's Caustic would do about 1000 in four casts, compared to the two casts the RK would be able to throw in for about 570 damage, but the RK has three other nukes to work with; two of which are AoE (his ult included in this).

In addition, the RK's potential damage output is incredibly higher then Bane's. This is not part of the argument and realize some people would point out Bane isn't meant to deal tons of damage. I'd counter that with every hero is meant to deal damage, and I'm not so sure the RK was meant to have such high gross damage output. For those interested, I came up with a theoretical situation to augment the point. I can put it up if needed (not going to include it in this post).

Third, Siphon Glyph can be negated with a single attack. I know this is disputed as irrelevant in many cases, but it can easily cut its power in half. Or you can run.

Even in the most optimistic of circumstances, where the Glyph can be attacked with only one bit of absorption, with the RK at Level 25 having levelled Glyph up to just Level 2, he will still deal a minimum of 48 damage to all nearby enemy units. Insignificant? Yeah, largely. But he can cast it once every 10 seconds. The moment you move away, he can fire it off again. And again. And again. You have to spend a whole second aiming for it. It's hitbox isn't very big either, and if you play with a bit of lag waiting maybe MAYBE just something like 3-4 seconds instead of 1, you're looking at around 200 damage instead of that measly 48. So really, you need perfect circumstances, fast aim and some luck as well (depending on if the Glyph's hitbox is hidden behind units or not) to get Glyph. And the RK can throw it out once every 10!

In addition, the suggestion to run is perhaps the biggest indicator put up here so far about how imbalanced the RK is. Can't deal with taking the damage? Run out of combat and move back. Except in that time the RK earns net kills from the AoE damage Glyph creates, deals damage and with Imbued this is +8-14 extra damage with an armor-reducing attack. If RK gets stun he can stun you, which even at Level 1 is two seconds of Glyph charging (around 100 damage).

The RK also still has Hazard Slash, Grand Rune and Rune Shell to work with. -.-

especialy his shell - which, btw, completley negates most spawn damage, which RK doesn't)

I did mention that at max level his shell does negate most spawn damage and makes it an effect passive vs. Spawns. However, the problem with it is it does not significantly reduce the effectiveness of say, the RK vs. Scarab. The RK still has incredibly higher net damage output, and even without his spells at Level 1 will still deal 20 freaking damage on average to a Scarab at Level 25 with max Shell. The RK's Rune Shell also absorbs spell damage, is targetable on allies, does not cost a significant amount of mana and at higher levels absorbs damage in the 600s.

Is shell effective? Yes, if you don't have a hero on the lane. However, even with a full Shell I would put my money on a similarly levelled RK, who can dish out far more spell damage and receives considerably less spell damage in return.

Finally, is it an arguement that RK is too strong, or the other heroes are weak?

It's kind of a point to both. At the moment, the RK's damage output is higher then the Scarab's, Acid Reaver's and Rue's by a significant amount. The RK has better, more flexible and far less taxing spells then the others do, and the RK also has one super yactipassive (I'm just going to start calling your passives-hidden-as-actives that). The Scarab's passive in comparison has similar usefulness in its passive ability, but it does not have the awesome line spell the RK does.

I'll take a more comprehensive look at possible ways to rectify the imbalance of the RK but sensitivty is needed. I think it's almost as much the RK being a superior hero design and having superior statistics as it is Scarab/Bane etc. simply lacking the same cohesive character design and needing some buffs.

Anyway, I'll post some ideas later, you're all welcome to input yours. Just as a reminder, when I post ideas they are not demands or requests, they're just ideas.

*PS: Ugh I fucking hate how long my posts are.

[DarkNemesis]

Sorry Ion, DarnYak's points are far more viable than yours, and Reaper's just don't contribute to the so called "outclassedness" to RK.

Rue is overall a better Tank than RK, due to his lack of dependence on certain stats (other than str). RK is heavily dependent upon both Evo and Int. Scarab, if built right, is ridiculous as a tank, I suppose you forgot about his three heals? Or dmg reduc carapace, or smite, which can deal upwards of a 1000 dmg? I'll admit Rue is plain insane as a tank, buts he's the UD's only real Tanker, Creeps, however, have four great tanks: Gravel, Scarab, Bane, Treant (even the Wolf now is quite good at tanking) and the Elves have Alex, TC, Requiem. Garg can fly yes, but is weak compared to Alex or Bane. And he lacks a heal. Leave RK where he is. Your going to ruin him and Rue with your suggestions.

Oh, btw, just because a hero is the best at one role doesn't mean hes OP.

[Leek]

Good lord, you really went all out.

Now I still have to go over all of it but good christ....

[Ion]

Here's some ideas I'll throw out.

Rune Knight

Siphon Glyph
Problems
- Damage is too high, however when buffed its damage was to low. Really it's just about finding the right number.
Ideas
- Reduction of Siphon Glyph damage from 4 + Int.(0.02) to 2.5/3 + Int.(0.02). That would decrease total damage output by about 20/31%. That's a hefty nerf* (why did I write buff...), but at the moment Siphon Glyph does a ton of damage. This makes it far more reasonable, but is not a significant nerf to the point where the skill is useless.

Sigil of Stunning
Problems
- The skill itself is okay, but it could use a little less punch, as the RK is plenty enough to deal with at the moment.
- Combined with Siphon Glyph it frustrates your ability to stop Glyph or prevent GR from going off (at higher Levels albeit).
Ideas
- Change the way the stun increases by level. Currently it's rather interesting balancing attempt; staggered stun growth that makes Levels 2/4/6 more important then Levels 1/2/3. However 4 second stun is really long t_t.
- Change stun growth (2/2/3/3/4/4) to 1/1/2/2/3/3 or 0.5/1/1.5/2/2.5/3 (3 is a long enough stun in itself).

Rune Shell
Problems
- It's high and uncounterable; something you have to deal with. In comparison to other takes on similar defensive skills (AR's Acid Sheath for instance) it is undispellable except for several specific magic breaking counters, which completely destroy the shell but often don't match up to it in cooldown.
Ideas
- There's no reason to apply any major penalty to Rune Shell. Just make it so that dispels can damage the shell. I'm against having Shells just easily dispellable, since they're not overly intrusive (they do break) and generally only suck up a nuke or two tops (even with several stacks). By making it so that WoN's deal damage to Rune Shells as if they're summoned units it means that you can counter shell by investing a little bit of cash in, or you can weaken it by a fair amount. You can't really abuse it (unless you happen to be lucky and be a hero with a dispel) since you need money for other things too, but the option is there at least for when the RK comes in with tons you can offer up a short counter.
- In addition, if Shell is still really incredible perhaps reducing it to 100/200/300/400/500 per level instead of the additional 20. A small reduction that isn't super significant; basically reduces the shell length by 1 attack.

Two ideas on how to deal with Imbue/Hazard...

Imbued Equipment
Problems
- It's a lot in one spell. No other spell in the game really compares to the flexibility offered by Imbued Equipment.
Ideas
1.
- Disassociate several of the effects with Imbued Equipment. Instead of innately offering the armor-reducing attack, have Imbued Equipment only passively increase bonus damage. Change the armor-reduction into a four part talent (-4/7/11/15 armor) for a reasonable amount of crystal. Keep Hazard Slash, increase its mana cost to +20*LVL and increase its cooldown to 35 (if it isn't already).
2.
- Reform the spell entirely? This hasn't really been suggested so I'll throw one out here. Change the Rune Knight's innate into a yactipassive Imbued Equipment. It gives him a small amount of increased passive spell resistance but when activated gives him increased damage (by %), increased spell resistance and an armor reducing attack for x seconds (perhaps influenced by Int.?). A talent could increase the effectiveness of Imbued.
- Rune of Fortification becomes apart of Rune Shell. Rune Shell can now target buildings. When Rune Shell is cast on buildings however, it doesn't shell them; it casts a Rune of Fortification on them (perhaps make it 1/1.5/2/2.5/3/3.5 regen for x(*yInt.) or something, I'm not sure just an idea).
- Hazard Slash now becomes its own skill; reduce the cooldown to 30 seconds (if it isn't already), but keep the rest.
- Alternatively, make Hazard Slash his innate (at 100 damage + 1.5(Int.)) and reduce the cooldown to 20-25 seconds. Make Imbued the spell, and have it increase damage reduction, spell resistance and damage bonus as normal but make it activatable.

Imbued Equipment
Problems
- It deals a fucking shit load of damage obnoxiously. I realize it's interruptible, but if you manage not to interrupt it hurts just a bit too much.
Ideas
- Reduce damage to 500/600/700/800 or the Int. bonus to 2/2.5/3/3.5 (or something like that).

The first essentially breaks down the skill a bit, but the second reforms the RK significantly. I'm not convinced it's better however; it'd need a closer look.

More on Scarab, etc. later.

[Ion]

Sorry Ion, DarnYak's points are far more viable than yours, and Reaper's just don't contribute to the so called "outclassedness" to RK.

Rue is overall a better Tank than RK, due to his lack of dependence on certain stats (other than str). RK is heavily dependent upon both Evo and Int.

There is so much wrong with this post.

First of all, Evocation is not a fucking stat. Evocation means he can buy Evocation Gloves to increase the damage of his spells. Surprisingly, Rue's only Evocation spell happens to be one of his auras. Secondly there are only three stats in the game. The RK's spells use two; Strength and Intelligence. If you could read, you would've noticed that the RK's Int. growth is his second highest stat.

The RK also doesn't need a significant amount of Intelligence for his skills to do large amounts of damage. Siphon Glyph and Grand Rune run on high use of multipliers, meaning that between 30-60 Int. the damage difference is not incredibly significant. For instance, with four seconds channeling of Siphon Glyph- a Level 25 Rune Knight who has 49 Int. will deal aprox. 192 damage. 2 levels in Siphon Glyph and you're dealing nearly 200 damage to nearby units. 10 second cooldown, and all you need is some mana. Damages towers. Make it stop.

Scarab, if built right, is ridiculous as a tank, I suppose you forgot about his three heals? Or dmg reduc carapace, or smite, which can deal upwards of a 1000 dmg?

Did you read the .rar file? No. If you did, you would've realized not only did I consider them, I went through the trouble of discerning their stats and specifics. Smite dealing 'upwards of 1000 damage' is a gross exaggeration. Is it possible? Yes, if you play long enough. The Scarab would need to have his spell at Level 6 with Int. in excess of 60 and the RK will need 3000 HP to boot. By the time you get to that point, if RK hasn't raped your bases solo, Rune Shell will probably defend for 1000 by then anyway.

His heals have nothing to do with him tanking, since he only has one instant that affects him. Lifewave affects spawns, which I said helped. His innate is a poor heal if any hero is around, however if it is just him the 2% per second is fine if, combined with his regen, he is not taking anymore damage. But compared to what the RK can offer (3 AoE spells, stun, mana drain, 1000+ AoE Grand Rune if the other team has no nets or physical interupts, spell resistance, armor reduction attack, bonus damage) it really doesn't add up.

It appears you read nothing I wrote, and had my post been one page instead of 3 I would berate you, but I think it's reasonable- just ignorant, to have ignored something as phat and boring as this.

I'll admit Rue is plain insane as a tank, buts he's the UD's only real Tanker, Creeps, however, have four great tanks: Gravel, Scarab, Bane, Treant (even the Wolf now is quite good at tanking) and the Elves have Alex, TC, Requiem. Garg can fly yes, but is weak compared to Alex or Bane

This statement pisses me off. You know why? It has nothing to do with anything. It adds nothing to your argument, deters nothing from mine. All you do is identify who can tank and who can't. What I can tell you however is RK tops every single one of these heroes in Tanking, AoE and Sieging. On another sad note, he probably is the best unintentional hero killer out of all these heroes, second just to Fenris. And RK can take Fenris, since the RK has the highest net damage output in EotA.

And he lacks a heal. Leave RK where he is. Your going to ruin him and Rue with your suggestions.

Oh, btw, just because a hero is the best at one role doesn't mean hes OP.

...

You have offered nothing to this conversation. Unlike Yak, who brought up specific points I did not touch upon, you simply showed how you ignorant you were to what I wrote. No, I will not 'ruin' the RK and Rue with my suggestions. When you made this post I hadn't made any fucking suggestions at all. I also did not say the RK is best at one role. I identified him as being the best at two roles compared to two other heroes, and a close second to Rue in tanking.

I am completely flabbergastered as to what to say at this point. I'm going to make my first suggestion: DarkNemesis, that you stay far away from this post and let other people argue against any changes to the RK. If I am wrong, and there is of course the possibility that I am, in everything that I have said- I want people who can put together a cohesive, meaningful post to refute me. I don't need this bullshit cluttering up what I have already made an incredibly long and cluttered thread.

If I can make the suggestion, unless DarkNemesis puts together something cohesive that specifically targets several points that I have actually made, please delete his post, since it is most likely spam intermixed with flaming against me (and if Jamn or Reaper posts, them). I want to keep this as on-topic as possible and I've already written way too much in 4 posts (apologies, apologies). If he puts together something we can all read by all means keep it, I appreciate input. If it's more of this just get rid of it or move it to his own thread where he can argue whatever he feels like.

[DarnYak]

Did you read the .rar file? No. If you did, you would've realized not only did I consider them, I went through the trouble of discerning their stats and specifics. Smite dealing 'upwards of 1000 damage' is grossly mis-stated. For Smite to deal 1000 damage, the RK's health would need to be 3000, and the Scarab would need to have 1000 mana (that's if he keeps Smite at Level 1). More reasonably, he would have it at Level 5, meaning he would need 5000 MP. Is it possible? Yes, if you play long enough. However, that's 30% of the RK's health at max, and Rune Shell will probably defend for 1000 by then anyway.

Smite's damage per mana goes up with level, so he'd only need around 200 mana (in addition to the spell cost which is around 40). Second, smite was actually designed to be one of the counters to shell, because it will deal high damage nukes for longer, due to his actual health not going down (or, if it goes through the shell, not going down as much).

Just fyi, i'm mostly with you on siphon. I've long considered it one of the strongest spells in the game, despite not having done anything about it. Maybe I'll tweak its stats for c2. Shell isn't likely to get any changes, and certainly not large. Imbued.....I need to think about that one more. Ult's probably not going anywhere either.

DarnYak

[Ion]

I revised my post since I thought (and was right) that my calculations were absurd. I apologize for the ignorance. To make a point however, the RK's Hazard Slash + Siphon Glyph can do about 1000 damage with just slightly over 200 mana if left to charge fully and the RK has at least 60 Int. (and the spells only need to be Level 4 O__________O)

Just fyi, i'm mostly with you on siphon. I've long considered it one of the strongest spells in the game, despite not having done anything about it. Maybe I'll tweak its stats for c2. Shell isn't likely to get any changes, and certainly not large. Imbued.....I need to think about that one more. Ult's probably not going anywhere either.

If anything, is probably the most broken thing about RK. Dispels being able to damage Shell is a small change that finally opens the RK up to attack and makes him more like any other hero in the game. Being able to damage his shield with dispels still costs you an entire skill point as Treant, Emberwraith, Dryad or DW (in AP). It still costs 160 to buy three dispels which, even with three of them probably won't even fully dispel the shield (but damage it significantly, and he can recast).

I hope it is clear I am not saying that dispels just get rid of Rune Shell. All am I saying is that dispels should damage Rune Shell like they would summons. Why is it that other heroes, with less AoE spells, less flexibility in terms of spell casting, significantly less net damage output and reduced tanking efficiency can have their only shields and ways of providing with them with some viability dispelled (Acid Sheath for instance) but Rune Shell cannot.

The Dryad's self-heal over time is not instant, and can be dispelled. She has about 3/5ths the life of the RK. Rune Shell cannot and should not, but at least should be damaged.

**EDIT: I don't believe Rune Shell dispel need to be implimented right away for C2, but in the long-run- by next version, at least Rune Shell, should be considered, but I await your argument for keeping it the way it is.

[DarnYak]

Yak, please I am exasperated. Please explain why Shell needs no changes.

Sure thing.

It's high and uncounterable; something you have to deal with.

So are heals. Granted, many of the heals can be countered to some extent (such as dryad on self - although not on allies), this just instead has a bonus invulnerability to a different set of spells (3 shell breakers vs 5 dispels). This also ignores the fact that it is actually countered by every damage dealing ability in the game, as opposed to other buffs which are countered only by dispels.

I might actualy buy into the arguement that there should be some sort of neutral shell breaking item (Cluster Rockets, perhaps?), but I don't want it in the same class as dispels (especially since i want to rework the whole dispel system). But this is not a nerf or change to shell, and not within the scope of my comment.

In addition, if Shell is still really incredible perhaps reducing it to 100/200/300/400/500 per level instead of the additional 20. A small reduction that isn't super significant; basically reduces the shell length by 1 attack.

Reducing the shell length is an issue. Its a defensive skill, if it doesn't effectively defend, you're probably better off getting an offensive skill. Plus, RK's suppose to be a tank, and while Imbued has magic reduction it isn't anywhere enough to effectively fill a tank role. At that point you're approaching being Grav, a giant hp pool that just takes a little while longer to empty. And don't forget that's magic damage only - lots of spells deal physical damage on all sides, making Imbued completely useless against them.

Of course, you're point is that RK isn't a tank, he's a tank with a high damage output. I've conceeded Glyph is too strong. Imbued Equipment may be, although that's diminished some by him being slow and relatively easy to stay at range from. Hazard Slash is probably up a bit too high too. Of course, if you have shell, you're going to be missing other skills (unless its an -allskills game, which i'm not sure anyone has ever played), and I can't believe the crystal funds are sufficient to get them all to full level (unless you skip GR).

The strongest arguement you could make against shell is mostly against its cooldown or mana cost, that is to say "these heroes do X damage per second for X mana per second, using their nukes every cooldown, RK blocks Y damage per second for Y mana per second with shell/imbued, its impossible for these heroes to stop an RK alone/in a pair/etc." I dont have that data right now, and I honestly haven't ever gone through those numbers. I'm honestly not even sure what I would WANT the answer to be.

I also won't deny I sort of blew it on Hazard Slash. After throwing it in because I wanted an active and I liked the graphic I came up with, I altered it thinking it might be good to be a low cooldown "shit's not going so well" helper. Not the best idea on a hero that already has GR and Siphon. Arguably unneccessary with Siphon alone.

DarnYak

[Ion]

Cool. Okay.

Hehe, I made the edit after cause I didn't feel so exasperated after reading it through two times so =p.

With regard to heals

This is something I thought of too when I was talking about Shell, since a Shell really acts somewhat like a delayed heal. I see where you're coming from with dispels and I have a few much more reasonable suggestions to put out there.

I see where you come from with your analysis of Shell vs. other instant heals in the game. The problem is at the moment that the Rune Knight is coming up as a tank with the highest net damage output in the game (I keep saying this, just as a note I have numbers to somewhat show why I say this if people think I'm wrong). Rune Shell in itself is more flexible then a heal, but you're right at the moment Rune Shell is basically counterable by every offensive ability and attack in the game.

I won't press the issue further, since I'd rather focus on his and other heroes' net damage output (which is imo the real problem). However, as a suggestion, perhaps a missile item (a one shot missile), short range target with a small AoE burst could increase the damage shells take by like 1.5x or 2x for 6-10 seconds or something. It wouldn't add any damage if the Shell dies, it would just increase the damage the RK would take. This is kind of a neutral compromise, since it gives people the opportunity to specifically go out of their way to spend money to counter a Shell without getting a damage-output item. Obviously, if they spend enough though they might've better spent their money on an Orb or something . But I am pleased with your explanation and won't go any further with shell.

The strongest arguement you could make against GR is mostly against its cooldown or mana cost, that is to say "these heroes do X damage per second for X mana per second, using their nukes every cooldown, RK blocks Y damage per second for Y mana per second with shell/imbued, its impossible for these heroes to stop an RK alone/in a pair/etc." I dont have that data right now, and I honestly haven't ever gone through those numbers. I'm honestly not even sure what I would WANT the answer to be.

The thing I like about GR is it significantly speeds up the game once you get past Level 40. The thing I don't like about GR is that only one team has access to this kind of massive incredinuke (two now with Orcs >: D). The tone down I asked for would nerf it by about 25%, but it's reasonable to say this really doesn't do much, since what's 1200 damage to 900 damage when Creeps only have 600 health (the difference being the chance in pwning a hero). I'll leave this for the moment too, since although it contributes to the RK's damage input, it is quite interruptible (still problems but back to it later).

I also won't deny I sort of blew it on Hazard Slash. After throwing it in because I wanted an active and I liked the graphic I came up with, I altered it thinking it might be good to be a low cooldown "shit's not going so well" helper. Not the best idea on a hero that already has GR and Siphon. Arguably unneccessary with Siphon alone.

I don't think Hazard Slash is a huge problem, since the RK was pretty awesome before it, but it does add another dynamic factor to his already heavy damage output. Now the thing I want to say here is, the RK is probably the most enjoyable hero in the game- partly because he dominates and has endless AoE, but also partly because he has a very decent spell selection and you typically feel good aiming to get all of his spells. That's a problem with other heroes, where you just avoid certain spells. Although some numbers need tweaking, it's not completely unfair to suggest that you 'blew it' with Hazard Slash, you just didn't give any affordable counter-combination to other heroes.

I'll throw some more ideas out, everyone can feel free to contribute. Be done in a bit.

[Warskull]

The Rune Knight is quite simply too good at what he does. He is both a defensive and offensive powerhouse with some of the best lane presence in the game. You could argue maybe other heroes aren't good enough, but the truth is, nearly every other hero would have be taken up a notch or two to match the RK.

Yes, other heroes have heals you can't really stop. However, they tend to have weaknesses. The Rune knight is excellent at fighting other heroes, very difficult to kill, and excellent at dealing with mobs. There is no real weakspot on the RK, there is no hero he has trouble with.

He could easily take a hit on most of his skills and still be a top tier hero.

Also a note, dropping grand rune, or only taking a single level in it, has always been an excellent option for RK. Grand Rune is probably his worst skill.

[Ion]

Assuming Siphon gets tweaked and I wish Sigil could just get bumped to 3s instead of 4s, I'm somewhat more pleased with the RK. However, he's still going to be dominant, and his damage output is only going to go down by a small amount with that getting looked at. Unless you have a clear picture of how you want to deal with Imbued/Hazard, I'm just going to assume the rest stays the same.

I'll put together some ideas that I have, I encourage others to do the same, on things that can be done to make other tanks more efficient like RK. These are ideas remember, not demands, there simply meant to (hopefully) facilitate more discussion and maybe inspire another skill etc.

At the moment only Gravel's done, I'll try and get to the other tanks as I can. Note that I don't really feel the Sorrow Liege needs any big changes, but he's included nonetheless.

Only open the 'Readthisonly' file it makes your life a lot easier (unless the hyperlinks don't work).

[DarnYak]

The strongest arguement you could make against GR is mostly against its cooldown or mana cost, that is to say "these heroes do X damage per second for X mana per second, using their nukes every cooldown, RK blocks Y damage per second for Y mana per second with shell/imbued, its impossible for these heroes to stop an RK alone/in a pair/etc." I dont have that data right now, and I honestly haven't ever gone through those numbers. I'm honestly not even sure what I would WANT the answer to be.

The thing I like about GR is it significantly speeds up the game once you get past Level 40. The thing I don't like about GR is that only one team has access to this kind of massive incredinuke (two now with Orcs >: D). The tone down I asked for would nerf it by about 25%, but it's reasonable to say this really doesn't do much, since what's 1200 damage to 900 damage when Creeps only have 600 health (the difference being the chance in pwning a hero). I'll leave this for the moment too, since although it contributes to the RK's damage input, it is quite interruptible (still problems but back to it later).

I typo'd and meant shell.

DarnYak

[Dekar]

TL;DR

I hope I find the time to read through it later, but only if you stop posting 10 pages of text every day.

Or someone could post a 5 line summary.

[Ion]

I stand by what I wrote xD.

[Warskull]

TL;DR

I hope I find the time to read through it later, but only if you stop posting 10 pages of text every day.

Or someone could post a 5 line summary.

I did, read the first paragraph of my post.

[Ion]

TBH I don't expect anyone to read it, I only reference the first page the rest is just a bunch of opinion crap. Here's an easy summary for you Dek:

- Siphon does 6/10/14/18/22/26 x (4 + [Int*0.02]) damage which translates to a lot of damage even if you blow it up.
- Hazard Slash deals as much damage as some nukes, and also comes packed with spell resistance, bonus damage and an armor reducing attack. Even though its cooldown is about 3x as long as nukes on other chars, they do the same base damage, Hazard has a longer range potential and the spell resistance/bonus damage/armor reducing means that the RK's damage output remains really, really high.
- I am neutral on Sigil, though in the above I argued it stunned for too long.
- I argued that GR did too much damage but Yak lolpwned me.
- I argued that Rune Shell was too strong but Yak converted me.

[DarnYak]

I argued that GR did too much damage but Yak lolpwned me.

If my arguement against rune shell with a typo lolpwned you, that's one hell of an arguement.

I haven't (intentionally) said anything about GR.

DarnYak

[Ion]

I don't think it necessarily demerits my argument (others can point problems with out, if there are any) and I still think it's ridiculously taxing to play against, but it was just funny that I didn't realize you were talking about Shell and made a whole 'nother big long phat rant about GR. It was pretty clear you were talking about Shell, I even thought in my head it fit shell better but I decided to use it to go off on GR.

That said, Dekar disagrees with everything I've said so perhaps he should bring up points since there hasn't really been a comprehensible opposing voice here yet (outside you Yak) to my saying RK has some imba skills (and is the most effective AoE-sieging tank in the game).

Let me just clarify I don't think smacking RK with a big phat nerf stick on all of his skills is reasonable, and I don't think (and you've made a point that)'s what you're going to do. A slight tweak on Siphon (I think 2.5-3 is more reasonable), at least looking at Imbued and giving some silent consideration to GR is good enough. I think it's more important that other tanks get similar buffs and skills that would put them on more equal footing with the RK in terms of crowd-control and skill flexibility <_>

[Dekar]

OK, here are the first field studies because thats all that counts.
Candle may not be the best testing environment due to melee hero terrain disadvantage according to Ion.

First Game:
Candle : RK + BP vs Scarab + DS
Instead of a 1on1 it turned into a 2on2 on Candle. RK and Scarab were set heroes, the second hero on each team was secret.

Ion failed pretty much with RK and cleaning totem took care of BP I think.
We used sleep, Expunge and Earth totem in combination with skulls to surround and finish heroes, what proved to be very sucessfull. Had to get crystals for Healingwave talent somehow.
Towards the end, I decided its time for a push. Heavy Melee, Siege and Archer spawns, T2 and T3 mercs, Termites and 2 Sappers and finally a skull turned the first half of their base into .. well, dead towers.
RK team lost clearly.
Enemy mass Dragons were no problem due to Nightmare and Healingwave nuking.

RK BP needs buff.w3g

Candle : RK + BP vs Scarab + DS

(193.04 KiB) Downloaded 215 times

Second Game:
Candle AP: RK + DW vs Inf + Ember
Heroes were know due to AP mode.

This game was plagued by delay and lag, but we played it out anyway.
Even though both RK and DW used the Amulet of Detection, we managed to get some kills with trickery and Fire Prison, ofc, but I had a really hard time, too. The higher threat was definitly the DW to me as Inf, especially until I adaped to playing hide & seek after the first half of the game.
The high level runeshield was overcome with AoO. No surprise.
Ember was quite good at damaging buildings, so I could Sabotage them.
RK team lost.
Enemy mass dragons were a bit harder to counter, but I think we never died to them.

RK DW is also not too imba.w3g

Candle AP: RK + DW vs Inf + Ember

(293.91 KiB) Downloaded 221 times

Third Game:
Stormwail AP: 5on5, ended prematurely

This time I played RK with Siphon Glyph, Imbued Equipment and level 1 stun, partially supported by Ion as Rue.
I had a really hard time finding orc units with mana to drain.
My Siphon placement could have been better most of the time, but it didnt dealt overwhelming damage on the lower levels, imo. Hazard Slash was not bad to finish waves with all range talents.
There were some semi nice combat scenes at the top fountain against Neph and Swashy, and when I killed one of them it was because they ignored Siphon and were 2/3 of my level.

RK 5on5.w3g

Stormwail AP: 5on5 RK

(241.1 KiB) Downloaded 224 times

Conclusion:
RK does not turn people into god and these replays may be one sided.

[Kalrithus]

As a side note can it be confirmed/denied that Dread Shaman's Cleansing totem and expunge both damage Rune shield? Because whenever I'm paired against RK it seems his shields drop quite quickly when I have both running on him, and the mana loss from Ancestral Fury + Expunge tends to end RK quickly when hes trying to siege.