Colossus Shardlings have immense damage

[Waki_Miko]

In the late game, Shardlings seem to be worth much more than the crystals spent to obtain the talents for it.

Shardlings, having no time limit on its lifespan, can be massed. Having no collisions certainly helps.
This isn't an issue on its own, I believe.
However, with every Hero Armor and (especially) Weapon upgrade, Shardlings combined with Heart of the mountain can wreck bases in no time at all.

Maybe there should be some lifespan or negative hp regen on Shardlings, or reduction (or elimination, if desired) of the benefits that Hero Weapon and Armor upgrades on Shardlings?
Or just raise their crystal cost or make them require more inflicted damage to obtain?

[DarkNemesis]

Well, this might be an issue but you did say late game. The point here Waki is that most Tanking heroes can wreck bases by lvl 30. In fact, some can even do it before lvl 20. Blazing Priest, Ember, Eidolon, Bane, are just a handful. I've sacked bases at lvl 9 with BP. A bit crazy, to be sure. I'm not disagreeing here, but just because you can gank bases quickly doesn't mean you need to be nerfed. We have a class for that, called siegers. Oh yeah, Rue with a dmg reduct aura is quite insane on sieges as well.

To be honest, I rarely play Grav with Shardings, I usually go DPS with Grav (Totem, Skill Orb, Hood), with heavy crystal into attack, Str, and HOTM talent. So I will have to try it later and respond again.

[Waki_Miko]

Considering that you already pump a lot of crystal into Attack in your normal build, buying the Shardling talent may be a very viable option, since Attack rapidly increases shardling damage, apart from increasing Gravel's damage.

I didn't mean 'late game' as in when you have +20 attack upgrade where your Shardlings deal roughly 200 damage per attack (or more with HotM + Talisman of the Sun), by the way. Of course if the game lasts that long, things could get really ugly fast.
Depending on how effectively you control your getting injured, you may amass enough shardlings easily enough. with some nice damage with even 2 or 3 Weapon Upgrade levels.
The best part is that Shardlings are the same regardless of Gravel's level.

Naturally your best friends are the HP regen items - Orb of Life, Talisman of the Sun (has a major plus of boosting your Shardlings' damage when you intend to raze a base really fast... you might want to grab this early but hold off upgrading) and (on Gloomreap) Hydra Mail, (and lots of Healing Potions if you're truly rich), to help you mass spawn Shardlings.

Once you've got enough of them, it's time to do a 'Shardling Blitz'. Sneak in your Shardlings (Backdooring works wonders), or have them follow behind a push (out of sight), and once you reach the base (or even enemy Obelisk control towers) and towers are attacking the regular creeps, rush the Towers - they'll go down very quickly.
If your push obliterates the base and your Shardlings survive, cast HotM on them for regen, and hide them until they're healed, and repeat.

If there's an Acid Reaver with Encouragement leading a Shardling blitz as well, it probably spells the end for your base.

The whole idea is that you scrap important structures before the other team's heroes can react.

It would be good to have more opinions, as since i'm just a very casual EotA player, and thus may very well be wrong about balance issues.

[Perhaps]

Here's a newcomer warning for you. Most things that are "too powerful" that require a crap load of gear and levels, usually aren't looked as problematic, because in all those resources you put into that plan, is you getting smashed by people spending on other more important things like obelisks, Tavern Heroes, trashing bases really early. And since they're summons, they can just be dispelled.

[DarnYak]

Late game things are intended to be strong, to encourage driving the game to an end. I'm not ruling out that shardlings might need a nerf (they have needed it before), but the situation sounds rather difficult to acheive and not impossible to counter.

Buffing shardlings, however, kind of worries me.

DarnYak

[Perhaps]

And buffing Sludge Monstrosities doesn't? >_>

Sludge + Scarab works out well MUCH MUCH MUCH earlier.

Though, I suppose Apotheosis + Shardlings could be a pretty interesting combo, with healing wave keeping them alive.

[DarnYak]

Sludges don't have magic immunity, shardlings do (unless I changed that and forgot). Further, sludges would need rebuffing everytime they split, shardlings are pretty strong (intended to be so).

DarnYak

[Perhaps]

Sludges require little setup time, they also can't be dispelled in their first state. >_>

[Waki_Miko]

Most things that are "too powerful" that require a crap load of gear and levels

Understood. Massing shardlings actually doesn't really need much gear at all; just with the right gear you get to mass them really quickly.
Usually an Orb of Life (Doesn't necessarily have to be fully upgraded), a level 0 Talisman of the Sun (Won't upgrade this quickly since it's so bloody expensive) and maybe a level 0 circlet (so I can spam HotM more often) are the only permanent items i get. Seemed good enough for me.
It's only when I greatly outclass my opponents in skill do I get the whole set of fully upgraded HP regen items and a fully upgraded circlet.

Yes, I forgot all about Scarab's Apotheosis+Healing Wave.. will have to try a Colossus/Scarab/Acid Reaver combo when I have the time.

[DarkNemesis]

Usually an Orb of Life (Doesn't necessarily have to be fully upgraded), a level 0 Talisman of the Sun (Won't upgrade this quickly since it's so bloody expensive) and maybe a level 0 circlet (so I can spam HotM more often) are the only permanent items i get. Seemed good enough for me.

Also, a +5 Skill orb comboed with a decently-upgraded hood and Totem, coupled with high Earthquake and Crumble are damn near ridiculous on Gravel. And actually, the Talisman is rather cheap compared to some of the other ults.

[Ragnarokz]

Shardlings are ridiculously over powered, not from their massive attack damage that overpowers any building in seconds *cough*, but from the fact that they last forever. Since you can mass them easily, you might as well be fighting another army. It's quite fun when they can easily topple a base within mere seconds. Use AoEs on them you say? They're fucking controlled by the player, so he'll just move them out of the way and/or make more!

I have about 6 replays now from shardlings ruining the game. Only 6/8 times were a Colossus wasn't picked and I had fun.

[DarkNemesis]

However, with every Hero Armor and (especially) Weapon upgrade, Shardlings combined with Heart of the mountain can wreck bases in no time at all.

Ok, this is what I don't get...how does having high dmg/armor make these guys better? Someone inform me, I'm really confused here. And don't remember reading anything about that. Plus, whats with all the HP regen items? Again, are these suppose to be making Shardlings better? How? I've only used this talent like twice, so I am a little ignorant about some of its...special effects.

I tested Shardlings, sort of. Didn't do a full game, but got HotM to 5 and full talent upgrade. I don't see how these guys are overpowered. Plus I saw Scylla dispelling them with her nemesis thing. And even if they were overpowered, it's late game, things are suppose to be powerful. You could argue BP's Phoenix's are overpowered. Especially with Kindle and Flame. Until I see a some reason to ask Yak to swing the nerf hammer, I'm gonna have to say leave the Shardlings how they are. Oh yeah, and they seem like they can be dispelled, should I start another thread whining about dispells and the defiler then?

[Waki_Miko]

Ok, this is what I don't get...how does having high dmg/armor make these guys better? Someone inform me, I'm really confused here. And don't remember reading anything about that.

Shardlings have the nice privilege of sharing Gravel's Attack and Armor upgrades from crystals.

Plus, whats with all the HP regen items? Again, are these suppose to be making Shardlings better? How? I've only used this talent like twice, so I am a little ignorant about some of its...special effects.

I'm sure you're aware that Shardlings are created as you accumulate enough damage. Thus, if you had HP regen items, you could afford to get injured at a faster rate, and therefore produce more Shardlings in a less amount of time.

I tested Shardlings, sort of. Didn't do a full game, but got HotM to 5 and full talent upgrade. I don't see how these guys are overpowered

Did you buy Hero Weapon upgrades, and accumulate enough of them? A few just won't do. Also, when attacking a base, try to get the towers to fire on the town creeps, and not your Shardlings.

Plus I saw Scylla dispelling them with her nemesis thing.

Well, you're supposed to be avoiding dispellers, just as how you'd play every other summoner...

And even if they were overpowered, it's late game, things are suppose to be powerful. You could argue BP's Phoenix's are overpowered. Especially with Kindle and Flame. Until I see a some reason to ask Yak to swing the nerf hammer, I'm gonna have to say leave the Shardlings how they are. Oh yeah, and they seem like they can be dispelled, should I start another thread whining about dispells and the defiler then?

[DarkNemesis]

Shardlings have the nice privilege of sharing Gravel's Attack and Armor upgrades from crystals.

Actually, I didn't. I thought you were referring to any armor. So I guess that +2 Knights wasn't doing the trick.

[Dekar]

You can also lure an enemy hero to a fountain and let him beat you for 3 minutes to quickly build an army.

And the resulting protip: Dont try to kill gravel with shardlings talent when he is next to a fountain.

[DarkNemesis]

Did another, more extensive test of Shardlings and have come to the conclusion Ragnarokz and Waki_Miko may have a good point. I had two points into Attack and Armor plus a +6 HotM and wiped a base in under a minute. Plus I was only lvl 26ish. Had the Animation talent at max and a +4 Health Orb, +3 Circlet, and a +3 Talisman. The main problem here, I think, is that the little bastards have Siege Attack, which deals 150% dmg to structures. If you had Bane sitting there with Acid Rain and Scarab throwing heals and ultimate, you'd be damn near impossible to counter. Plus, due to the now "All Hero" (All Random)mode, you could easy find other, even more unbalanced combos: Incarnation and crits/pools, Garg with Aberration, BP with Kindle and Flame, the list goes on and on. And after only a brief glimpse of these guys upgraded, they where starting to scare the hell out of me. X_X

My ballot definitely does to nerfing these guys. Swing the hammer, Yak, they are impressive. Too impressive.

Note: Keep in mind though they can be dispelled, and only have 700 HP, which isn't terribly high.

[Tehw00tz]

[Reaper] No.

[DarnYak]

Even in my crappy test game where i only got 4 or so shardlings demonstrated to me they need to be nerfed. So yea, expect nerf bat to hit them again.

DarnYak

[Perhaps]

Has you considered spell resistance instead of spell immunity?!

[DarnYak]

Has you considered spell resistance instead of spell immunity?!

Looks like i had already removed magic immunity, although i haven't double checked it in the editor yet.

DarnYak

[Perhaps]

Actually, you probably wouldn't even need to reduce them all that much if you force them to stay with gravel, like Sorrow Liege's summons. Then you couldn't stash and horde them to build them up anymore.

On a side note, a cool feature for Shardlings, would be the ability to convert them into "Lob Rocks" which would be a "almost bolder sized throwing rock," as an consumable target hero item, it would do [x + (y * str)] damage to target hero, and stun!

[DarkNemesis]

[Reaper] YOU ARE NOT A MOD THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE

[DarkNemesis]

Actually, you probably wouldn't even need to reduce them all that much if you force them to stay with gravel, like Sorrow Liege's summons. Then you couldn't stash and horde them to build them up anymore.

On a side note, a cool feature for Shardlings, would be the ability to convert them into "Lob Rocks" which would be a "almost bolder sized throwing rock," as an consumable target hero item, it would do [x + (y * str)] damage to target hero, and stun!

Gravel doesn't need another stun, earthquake is near insane enough.

[jamn455]

Don't double post DarkNemesis, to avoid the double standard, w00tz stop "trolling", though I don't really mean it.

Yak has already said he is going to nerf it, so any discussion about how powerful they are is not needed anymore. If you want to suggest a skill for the shardlings, make a new thread under suggestions.

[Tehw00tz]

I had two points into Attack and Armor plus a +6 HotM and wiped a base in under a minute. Plus I was only lvl 26ish. Had the Animation talent at max and a +4 Health Orb, +3 Circlet, and a +3 Talisman.

I lol'd

Shut the hell up and stay on topic you troll.

By replying to that you've made the topic go off more.

And the response was completely relevant. I and others have said this more than once and I'd like to reiterate my point here, play with competent human players. If you have those kinds of items at level 26ish then there is really no way that the data you recorded would be accurate. If I were a "bad hero" such as TC and had items such as those and had a level 6 ebb I could take a base in under a minute. With such items and that much crystal there is no feasible way that you could've been stopped at all, the end result would have been that base would've fallen regardless of what hero you are playing. I'm sure you're going to disregard this as flaming and trolling and complain about how the moderators are lazy incompetent left-ists who are trying to bring the great GOP down.