Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

Posted: **July 10th, 2007, 10:14 am**

Demons.

You went into that game deliberately choosing infiltrator to kill my icespinner.

I went into that game deliberately picking icespinner to show up your claims from the previous game that he was complete shit compared to infiltrator.

Not to mention that RK isn't able to push well against icespinner. With divine wizard? Maybe. But I means I couldn't gone to your other lanes and wrecked them faster since your divine wizard and infiltator (barring Grand Rune), were the best choices to stop any pushes led by icespinner with Holy Strike/Mines.

Plus, what would you do anyway? I never seen you play as RK, and my assumption is that you suck with him. Grand Rune does no damage to buildings. Gonna tank all my drakes to death after I kill your creeps with a frostspire? Going to Signal of stun me when I blizzard? I could brainfreeze you when you were about to cast grandrune, or better yet, set up a frostspire, icelance, and then brainfreeze right before grandrune goes off if you didn't stun me first.

Posted: **July 10th, 2007, 10:25 am**

Stun/syphon sigil to wreck your pushes, and AMS potion > brainfreeze.

I've caught onto RK. He's rather easy to play, and far more effective than infilt so long as you can keep his syphon sigils going. He's far more effective at pushing and stopping pushes than infilt is.

Posted: **July 10th, 2007, 10:31 am**

Glyph RK is fun to play, works better witha BP ally as Glyph comboes with Backfire.

However, personally I find RK better with the Stun/IE build with some points in Shield, personal preference really.

Anybody want to do like a thread overview of all the points made and shit? I dont want to read all of it if its pointless bickering.

Posted: **July 10th, 2007, 7:54 pm**

An RK that gets all of his points in imbued equipment and gets attack upgrades and items can take down waves just as fast as a siphon glyph RK with int upgrades. Stun does nothing to wreck pushes as far as i know since you can only target a hero which has nothing to do with pushes since it does little to no damage. Brainfreeze is the last thing to worry about when you use an AMS potion. I would be worried alot more about getting ice lanced or frost spired and netted.

Mian, the point of this post is that demongod thinks he knows everything about EotA and the tactics used in it. He feels that his knowledge is so superior he can even challenge those of us who have played the map for many years. He doesnt know that one spawn tower can easily counter two if used in the right situation. He is pretty much one of those DotA guys who joins the game and says hmm DotA is much better than this and leaves. He on the other hand decided to stay and argue about everything in the map.

Posted: **July 10th, 2007, 8:14 pm**

If we could stop focusing on flogging Demon and his snowball effect or whatever, I think Kibiyama might be on to something. The more I read his posts and the more I think about it, the more I start to see where he's right: A lot (or at least some) of EotA's complexity has become shallow. If that isn't something worth talking about, then I don't know what is.

Posted: **July 10th, 2007, 8:17 pm**

Emufarmers wrote:If we could stop focusing on flogging Demon and his snowball effect or whatever, I think Kibiyama might be on to something. The more I read his posts and the more I think about it, the more I start to see where he's right: A lot (or at least some) of EotA's complexity has become shallow. If that isn't something worth talking about, then I don't know what is.

I support this.

DarnYak

Posted: **July 10th, 2007, 8:40 pm**

jamn455 wrote:An RK that gets all of his points in imbued equipment and gets attack upgrades and items can take down waves just as fast as a siphon glyph RK with int upgrades. Stun does nothing to wreck pushes as far as i know since you can only target a hero which has nothing to do with pushes since it does little to no damage. Brainfreeze is the last thing to worry about when you use an AMS potion. I would be worried alot more about getting ice lanced or frost spired and netted.

Mian, the point of this post is that demongod thinks he knows everything about EotA and the tactics used in it. He feels that his knowledge is so superior he can even challenge those of us who have played the map for many years. He doesnt know that one spawn tower can easily counter two if used in the right situation. He is pretty much one of those DotA guys who joins the game and says hmm DotA is much better than this and leaves. He on the other hand decided to stay and argue about everything in the map.

Sorry, Jamn, but I've been playing EotA ever since it was elven batallion vs. creeps, and instead of there being a little altar by an obelisk with hero portraits, all of the heroes would be lined up right at the center of your screen and you'd pick one by clicking on it. The entire game would be about getting obelisks and crystals and then pooling for upgrades, with everyone typing -u every 2 minutes to make sure they kept up. I was also there when upgrades moved to tree mana so that it wasn't just about a pooling race, and now I'm at this map.

If you think I'm some dumbass nub that just started, get a fucking clue. I've played HoSK since its first versions, seen that gone to shit. I've played Enmity Campaign since its first or second public version, was one of the best players to have ever played that game, case in point EVERY SINGLE HERO I HAVE EVER USED NOBODY HAS FOUND A SOLID COUNTERSTRATEGY TO AND HAS HAD TO BE NERFED TO THE GROUND, and I've played EotA since some very early days. I bought TFT basically on the first week it was released for 59.99 at Comp USA, played all the hero arenas, and then DotA and AoS when they first started up, and played EotA when IT first started up.

No, I've been around for a VERY long time, thank you. But now, it's either DotA or anti-DotA, and frankly, while I don't despise it, I think it's far overplayed and I'd see any other map be hosted consistently.

Edit: Emu, Kibi, and Yak, thanks a lot. Your support means quite a bit. I for one hope to see more maps and more fun stuff.

Posted: **July 10th, 2007, 8:47 pm**

Demongod86 wrote:
jamn455 wrote:An RK that gets all of his points in imbued equipment and gets attack upgrades and items can take down waves just as fast as a siphon glyph RK with int upgrades. Stun does nothing to wreck pushes as far as i know since you can only target a hero which has nothing to do with pushes since it does little to no damage. Brainfreeze is the last thing to worry about when you use an AMS potion. I would be worried alot more about getting ice lanced or frost spired and netted.

Mian, the point of this post is that demongod thinks he knows everything about EotA and the tactics used in it. He feels that his knowledge is so superior he can even challenge those of us who have played the map for many years. He doesnt know that one spawn tower can easily counter two if used in the right situation. He is pretty much one of those DotA guys who joins the game and says hmm DotA is much better than this and leaves. He on the other hand decided to stay and argue about everything in the map.
Sorry, Jamn, but I've been playing EotA ever since it was elven batallion vs. creeps, and instead of there being a little altar by an obelisk with hero portraits, all of the heroes would be lined up right at the center of your screen and you'd pick one by clicking on it. The entire game would be about getting obelisks and crystals and then pooling for upgrades, with everyone typing -u every 2 minutes to make sure they kept up. I was also there when upgrades moved to tree mana so that it wasn't just about a pooling race, and now I'm at this map.

If you think I'm some dumbass nub that just started, get a fucking clue. I've played HoSK since its first versions, seen that gone to shit. I've played Enmity Campaign since its first or second public version, was one of the best players to have ever played that game, case in point EVERY SINGLE HERO I HAVE EVER USED NOBODY HAS FOUND A SOLID COUNTERSTRATEGY TO AND HAS HAD TO BE NERFED TO THE GROUND, and I've played EotA since some very early days. I bought TFT basically on the first week it was released for 59.99 at Comp USA, played all the hero arenas, and then DotA and AoS when they first started up, and played EotA when IT first started up.

No, I've been around for a VERY long time, thank you. But now, it's either DotA or anti-DotA, and frankly, while I don't despise it, I think it's far overplayed and I'd see any other map be hosted consistently.

Edit: Emu, Kibi, and Yak, thanks a lot. Your support means quite a bit. I for one hope to see more maps and more fun stuff.

Slightly offtopic just to address some things to Demons here.

You mean you overplayed two to four select EC heros that were known to be top tier at the time and attempted to find every bug and exploit there was to maximize their potential and was adamant on reducing the threat of other heros or items to your special select ones.

And don't even bother replying to this one, you know very full well thats true.

Christ, go learn to abuse Dryad or something then.

Posted: **July 10th, 2007, 8:54 pm**

1) Omega Hunter
2) Insidious Demon
3) Fallen Angel
4) Pandaren Grandmaster
5) Hawkeye
6) Armada Captain
7) Transcendant Maiden

Nether Sorceress
9) Widow
10) Undead Royal Asasssin

I've played all of them quite a good bit of time, Fierach. Certainly well enough to readily pubsmash with all of them, and decently enough to hold my own in an inhouse with them if not destroy it outright.

And I don't recall any hero being seriously nerfed aside from gargoyle. TMK lost 50 damage on his thunderbolt, and that was all IIRC.

And yes, I did attempt to find every exploit (NOT BUG! I hate bug abuse!) with the heroes I played because I was always out to break the system. And I have to say, I did a good job of smashing it in quite a few ways =).

Learn to abuse Dryad? That's simple.

1) Spam tornado
2) Use tangleweed every so often
3) Repeat

Posted: **July 10th, 2007, 8:55 pm**

But the points kibi brought up were about Stormwail, it's getting removed next version.
Also demon, what version were the Harpy and Tactician added in?

Posted: **July 10th, 2007, 8:57 pm**

Tehw00tz wrote:But the points kibi brought up were about Stormwail, it's getting removed next version.

Since this is detremental to this conversation, I'll say it now: Felpine is a combination of me fucking with you guys and seeing if anyone acutaly reads the patch notes as I'm updating them.

So please discuss Stormwail, its not going anywhere.

DarnYak

Posted: **July 10th, 2007, 8:58 pm**

Posted: **July 10th, 2007, 11:27 pm**

wootz getting ownered sir.

i wish someone who would look serious at this whole thing with a good load of experience would write here.
Also nicely done with all extras and gimmicks and a neutral view of play.
You get so many useless discussion in several topics that end in something useless. Caus either the creator is well the creator, or the post just suck.

Posted: **July 11th, 2007, 6:16 am**

The day before 1.12 Test6:
<dekarbot> add felpine grove ~~
<DarnBot@Azeroth> yea that's just what I need, a shitload more problems
<DarnBot@Azeroth> how fucking stupid do you think i am?

Posted: **July 11th, 2007, 7:04 am**

Shadow.M4L wrote:i wish someone who would look serious at this whole thing with a good load of experience would write here.

Yak and Kibi are here, read everything they say and ignore all the other posts.

DarnYak wrote:Since this is detremental to this conversation, I'll say it now: Felpine is a combination of me fucking with you guys and seeing if anyone acutaly reads the patch notes as I'm updating them.

You could at least given me credit for writing up the false information about it!

Demongod86 wrote: Learn to abuse Dryad? That's simple.

1) Spam tornado
2) Use tangleweed every so often
3) Repeat

There is something about your posts that really make me laugh, especially this Dryad part. It could be your complete arrogance that you think you are better than everyone, or maybe your ignorance that you think no one else knows anything. Either way it's time for you to shut the fuck up and stop arguing and crying over every single minute detail that may upset you. If you don't like the map go play something else, because I'm certain no one here will miss you. In fact, we will probably rejoice when we finally see you leave.

P.S.

Demongod86 wrote:I've caught onto RK. He's rather easy to play, and far more effective than infilt so long as you can keep his syphon sigils going. He's far more effective at pushing and stopping pushes than infilt is.

Let me guess, this is your sorceress robe RK up against your sorceress robe Infil =p?

Posted: **July 11th, 2007, 7:26 am**

Demons.

I'm pretty sure that if the entirety of the old EC gang was here they'd all bash you for being one of the shittiest players ever, both moral and skillwise.

Thats just about all I have left to say. You have to wonder how you made so many people groan at just seeing you man.

By the way, weren't you just bitching about Darn the other day about false promises? And now your here thanking him for his support?

Posted: **July 11th, 2007, 9:48 am**

I've never said anything about false promises. I said words were cheap, and I'll let his mapwork do the talking of his so far unfulfilled promises to make the game dynamic. 1.11c is a transition period for EotA, so I'm waiting for Yak to make good on his words.

Posted: **July 11th, 2007, 3:20 pm**

This is an EotA forum, please stop talking about your grudges against each other in EC.

Posted: **July 11th, 2007, 5:28 pm**

well know what? my epeen > your epeen

im an ethug, biatch

Posted: **July 11th, 2007, 8:26 pm**

This is getting rediculous...

In regards to this "snowball effect,"

The reason there is a snowball effect, is because at the time the snowball effect is unstoppable, you have pretty much lost the game. This is why in melee matches, people leave after their armies die instead of waiting around for the other person to destroy every building.

However, this is not a design flaw in EotA, it is simply because your team's strategy was to bet everything on bases or obelisks or whatever it is you're rambling about. The reason the game is "shallow" is because that is the level of playing that you have chosen to play at. EotA was designed to accomadate many strategies, including shallow ones.

There is certainly no "best strategy."

In regards to "Kibiyama,"

This is a great example of someone who looks smart, but is full of it. First of all, your chess analogy is way off; You're saying there are no trade-offs to controling obelisks, which is just beyond wrong. I mean, honestly, look at what this person is saying. Their point is that obelisks are free to take. Theyre saying that is what is wrong. Why are you putting up with this?

"I'd like to see an EotA with a revamped spawn system that has strategic advantages and disadvantages, stronger momentum for pushes, and more quickly-accelerated hero development."

You want stronger momentum for pushes? I can take out a lane at level 8, about 10-15 minutes into the game. Some people (read: morons) consider that game winning due to "snowball effects." Maybe you should rethink this.

Hero development is where it is so that there can be a variety of game lengths. It allows for more strategic options; which if im not mistaken was a key principal of EotA.

Most of your problems seem to stem from EotA either being
a) too flexible or b) too noob friendly. Which is ironic, considering your arguement is that EotA has become "shallow." What you really mean, is that the game does not force you to play less shallow, and leaves that up to your opponents. Thats the difference between Twilight and Exodus.

I can't even go on. I try to be nice, really, but this is too much.

Posted: **July 11th, 2007, 8:53 pm**

Hey El ~~

Down a lane at level 8? hmm with who?

But I tend to agree with Elriths point of view atm

Posted: **July 11th, 2007, 9:24 pm**

...

Okay, let me make myself more clear.

I want the win/lose part of the game to happen at the end of the game, not at the halfway point. Wc3 melee does settle for this to some degree, but that doesn't mean EotA has to.

You're saying there are no trade-offs to controling [sic] obelisks, which is just beyond wrong.

So there is something bad about controlling obelisks? A 500 gold tower that attacks, is a teleport, is immune to magic, and feeds you crystal and unit spawns that don't even give gold to the enemy... is a bad thing to have? Maybe if you build it as the other team is pushing that lane and you just end up losing 500 gold, but otherwise it's a pretty sound investment that starts a feedback loop.

your chess analogy is way off

It wasn't an analogy. I introduced a term that isn't used much beyond game design, so I thought maybe I should include an example so I don't look like a dick that just uses words nobody knows.

You want stronger momentum for pushes? I can take out a lane at level 8, about 10-15 minutes into the game. Some people (read: morons) consider that game winning due to "snowball effects." Maybe you should rethink this.

That's why I want stronger momentum for pushes. If you shift importance from the number of units funneling into a lane to how you use the units you do have, and shaping the momentum, it gives hope to lanes that have lost an outpost and speeds up the game.

The 10 minutes you spend taking down a base after it's clearly acknowledged on both sides that the base is lost could be spent other ways.

All of this is assuming a major departure in the development of EotA. I'd like to branch 1.10, with Yak's permission, but 1. I don't know JASS 2. I won't have time for it until I finish Presidential Kung-Fu Showdown.

Hero development is where it is so that there can be a variety of game lengths. It allows for more strategic options; which if im not mistaken was a key principal of EotA.

I'm not saying "dumb down the heroes" or anything. I'd just like it if they developed faster. The way it is now feels like a colossal, slow task, and if you spec wrong in the beginning, you're pretty much fucked.

The goal behind everything with speeding the game up is about letting the players experience as much of the game as possible, as many times as possible, and making the team's situation less serious, permanent, and secure. I don't want the losing team to go "Well, we're fucked, gg us" and I don't want the winning team to go "Well, we're winning, guess I'll just sit back and fuck around for a while"

This is a great example of someone who looks smart

Thanks.
Penis.

Posted: **July 11th, 2007, 9:47 pm**

Elrath of the Els wrote:This is getting rediculous...

In regards to this "snowball effect,"

The reason there is a snowball effect, is because at the time the snowball effect is unstoppable, you have pretty much lost the game. This is why in melee matches, people leave after their armies die instead of waiting around for the other person to destroy every building.

However, this is not a design flaw in EotA, it is simply because your team's strategy was to bet everything on bases or obelisks or whatever it is you're rambling about. The reason the game is "shallow" is because that is the level of playing that you have chosen to play at. EotA was designed to accomadate many strategies, including shallow ones.

There is certainly no "best strategy."

In regards to "Kibiyama,"

This is a great example of someone who looks smart, but is full of it. First of all, your chess analogy is way off; You're saying there are no trade-offs to controling obelisks, which is just beyond wrong. I mean, honestly, look at what this person is saying. Their point is that obelisks are free to take. Theyre saying that is what is wrong. Why are you putting up with this?

"I'd like to see an EotA with a revamped spawn system that has strategic advantages and disadvantages, stronger momentum for pushes, and more quickly-accelerated hero development."

You want stronger momentum for pushes? I can take out a lane at level 8, about 10-15 minutes into the game. Some people (read: morons) consider that game winning due to "snowball effects." Maybe you should rethink this.

Hero development is where it is so that there can be a variety of game lengths. It allows for more strategic options; which if im not mistaken was a key principal of EotA.

Most of your problems seem to stem from EotA either being
a) too flexible or b) too noob friendly. Which is ironic, considering your arguement is that EotA has become "shallow." What you really mean, is that the game does not force you to play less shallow, and leaves that up to your opponents. Thats the difference between Twilight and Exodus.

I can't even go on. I try to be nice, really, but this is too much.

1) Your analogy is so silly it's not even funny. I'll give you a much BETTER analogy here:

You and your opponent start the game off with about 40% of the map already under control apiece, with the other 20% up for grabs, and your maximum army size is based on how much of the map you control. In short, the moment your opponents achieve even a slight advantage that they can hold onto, you're delaying the inevitable, and may just as well quit there.

2) No, I have not chosen to play at any particular level. I play with the best opponents I can find, so long as the game remains fun. This is why I don't play pub eota anymore.

3) Obelisks ARE free to take. Everyone starts off with a spawn tower, and after that, it's a 500 gold investment, which you can redeem in a few aoe castings. One-time minor cost, huge payoff. If you can solidify control over more obelisks than your opponents, you have more spawns, thus more pushing power over multiple lanes, thus more flexibility, and even if your opponents are able to hold out against an onslaught of superior forces, they are in NO WAY REWARDED FOR THIS. They're not even recompensed for the tower repairs they have to make or the mercs they have to buy just to defend! How pathetic is that?!

4) Show me a lane taken down at level 8, and I'll show you someone not of your skill level, or with an inferior hero or both. Take your pick.

5) One) you can't even spell argument correctly (read: imbecile), Two) Noob-friendly? Too flexible? Try THE OPPOSITE. In fact, EotA is hardly better than DotA in that it encourages (no, strike that...in fact, it FORCES) mass hero pushes (or your opponents solidify obelisk control and then build up a spawn tower advantage, and the only way to defend that on even grounds is to do defend the same way, although unlike DotA, you can also "protocol" in response and 5-man push another lane and perhaps trade lanes (although EXTREMELY risky since if their push succeeds and yours leaves their buildings in the red, you've just lost). EotA is probably the most unforgiving war3 custom I've EVER played. In other AoSes, you can make mistakes upon mistakes and still win. In DotA, if say, your play was shoddy, but you bought time for your terrorblade to get radiance/skadi and they're only knocking at your main, even if you're down 1-6 on towers and 5-20 on hero kill score, you STILL have a good chance of winning. In Enmity Campaign, the "snowball effect" is a hero's bonus for a hero-kill spree. It takes just one well-placed team attack to end that.

In EotA, once you start bleeding, you don't stop. Once your opponents have solidified Ob +1 or have a tentative hold on Ob +2, game over right there.

In order to decide how "forgiving" a game is, do this: have both teams fight to the bitter end until a victory condition has been achieved (read: no -surrender). At what point is the game decided? At what point is the game actually over? Because EotA Stormwail games are decided at a fraction of the time it'd take to actually achieve a victory condition.

Oh, and know why it's so hard to stop the snowball effect, Elrath? Because there's only ONE WAY TO PLAY. In DotA and Enmity Campaign, if your team is on the defensive but your heroes are growing in items and levels, guess what? One hero can just teleport past the action and backdoor a building down, one building at a time. Repeat this process over and over and suddenly the defensive team whittled down the offense and now is starting a resurgent comeback.

Except guess what...

"The defenders defend because they defended."

There is no reward for defense in EotA. There is no coming back in EotA.

MERCS AND SPAWN TOWER UNITS GIVE NEITHER GOLD NOR EXPERIENCE. THEY ARE A ONE WAY STREET. THERE IS NO EQUILIBRIUM WITH THEM.

The spawn towers and mercs REWARD OFFENSE, but do NOT reward defense. In EotA, things like biding time, conservative defenses are NOT rewarded. EotA therefore makes itself SHALLOW by encouraging some strategies, but not others!

"So why not give a team gold when a player dies, since they just took a hit? Why not give teams spawn towers for losing an obelisk?"

Because you're being ridiculous. You don't reward players for playing poorly, but you reward them for playing well in the face of overwhelming odds. You allow them to make up for their mistakes so it's not about just holding an advantage, but about MEETING THE VICTORY CONDITION.

But I guess some morons would rather play three one-hour games all ending with -surrender than one three-hour game ending with the destruction of the main hall or the artifact lugged back to the base...

Hell, if you all like superfast games that end so quickly...

THEN WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT EOTA?

LET'S GO PLAY WORM WARS!

Posted: **July 12th, 2007, 12:23 am**

I want the win/lose part of the game to happen at the end of the game, not at the halfway point. Wc3 melee does settle for this to some degree, but that doesn't mean EotA has to.

Then I suggest you research german style board games. As I already explained, the reason the game doesn't stay up in the air until the last second is because the game is not able to detect your strategy.

By which I mean, if your strategy was to secretly plant bomb gens in the other teams base somehow and explode their base at the last second, the game would not know. Therefore, you can either remove the possibility of such a strategy, or you have to deal with extra time that the game has allowed for them.

Yak chose to favor additional strategic options over your personal desire for the game to declare you the winner in a timely manner. You have to agree however, that since most Wc3 players are familiar with ending before the game says so, that he is not entirely unjustified.

So there is something bad about controlling obelisks? A 500 gold tower that attacks, is a teleport, is immune to magic, and feeds you crystal and unit spawns that don't even give gold to the enemy... is a bad thing to have? Maybe if you build it as the other team is pushing that lane and you just end up losing 500 gold, but otherwise it's a pretty sound investment that starts a feedback loop.

Lets evaluate these statements together.

Kibiyama's cost of an Obelisk Tower : 500 gold
Assumptions thereof:
a) That you will always be able to build an obelisk tower OR
b) That it costs nothing to be able to build or maintain an obelisk tower.

These are obviously rediculous, and yet, in essence thats what you've said. I really can't procede to destroy the rest of your arguement until you've conceded your mistake in it's cost. At which point, I imagine I will prove your cost is incorrect.

It wasn't an analogy. I introduced a term that isn't used much beyond game design, so I thought maybe I should include an example so I don't look like a dick that just uses words nobody knows.

I don't want to get into an arguement over semantics, but I think going so far as to quote and then correct a single term is a little much given its disputability. Consider that what you said could be summed up in Chess:Complex :: EotA:Shallow. (You even used the word 'whereas').

That's why I want stronger momentum for pushes. If you shift importance from the number of units funneling into a lane to how you use the units you do have, and shaping the momentum, it gives hope to lanes that have lost an outpost and speeds up the game.

You are extremely confused about how this game works. It is already more important how you use units than how many there are. Any influence over a lane by a player at all, practically negates such an advantage unless there is another player of equal skill opposing them. In which case the the advantage of destroying their outpost earlier (likely at great cost or skill) tips the advantage to them.

The 10 minutes you spend taking down a base after it's clearly acknowledged on both sides that the base is lost could be spent other ways.

Im sorry you feel it always takes 10 minutes to take down a base after it's "clearly" lost. (Hint: It doesn't). But if it does, then that's ten minutes the enemy heroes are busy and can't defend other lanes. If there are no enemy heroes then the base is easily defended in most cases.

All of this is assuming a major departure in the development of EotA. I'd like to branch 1.10, with Yak's permission, but 1. I don't know JASS 2. I won't have time for it until I finish Presidential Kung-Fu Showdown.

Really? You want a free copy of hundreds of hours of work given to you to work on and base your own map on? Who would have guessed that you had an ulterior motive in all this?

Hero development is where it is so that there can be a variety of game lengths. It allows for more strategic options; which if im not mistaken was a key principal of EotA.
I'm not saying "dumb down the heroes" or anything. I'd just like it if they developed faster. The way it is now feels like a colossal, slow task, and if you spec wrong in the beginning, you're pretty much fucked.

This one is extra annoying to me.

1. Where in the text you quoted did I suggest you wanted to dumb down heroes?
2. I know what you'd like, in fact, the quoted text explains why what you would like conflicts with flexibility, which is core to the game.
3. The third sentence is more bullshit, but the end part is especially wrong, because you can easily buy more skill points for reasonable costs, and its not like the "wrong" skills you got earlier won't still help you. And theres no best "spec" anyway.

The goal behind everything with speeding the game up is about letting the players experience as much of the game as possible, as many times as possible

In other words, you want to cheapen everything. But aside from that. You still have mistakes. Mistakes in pretty much every point you make! If you quicken the game up, do you think MORE people are going to do complex and time consuming things like using command towers or generators, or plotting strategies? How will this help them experiance more of the game?

Part of the problem is that your definition of 'the game' differs from mine, because you have never done anything other than the basic AoS push, defend, hero kill. You don't understand that there is more to the game than that. You are trying to focus that, make it take more prioritized, and enhance gameplay for people who only do that.

It sounds to me like you want to make a DotA clone, but with all of Yak's craftsmanship.

making the team's situation less serious, permanent, and secure. I don't want the losing team to go "Well, we're fucked, gg us" and I don't want the winning team to go "Well, we're winning, guess I'll just sit back and fuck around for a while"

Ugh, what you're saying doesn't mean that at all. All it means is that the portion of the game where they feel that will take strictly less time (assuming everything perfectly sped up - and it's not Yak hasn't tried to speed things up perfectly before; this guy has no fucking clue), not relatively less time. So you're not really saying anything here. Just a bunch of "I want I want I want" STFU.

Elreth is the greatest, and also, I love. He's the best. Ever.

Thanks

For people who don't feel like reading all that that - Summary

Most of what he said was semantics and repeating what he said earlier; this did not go over well with me.

Posted: **July 12th, 2007, 12:37 am**

None of this is a productive area of discussion.

You win. Now what are we going to to do to improve EotA?

Edit: But I guess I should say something about the way I've been made into a design-stealing lamer, because I have great respect for Yak, and because I have no idea if the average forumite knows what branching exactly entails...

I wouldn't be asking to steal the design, slap my name on it, and achieve battle.net mega-stardom. I'd be asking to take EotA in a completely different direction in its own concurrent version, so that whatever changes come up in this discussion that people would like to be explored, but are too different from the trunk version, can be experimented with. Then Yak can take whatever good (if any) comes from that and merge it into the trunk version. I can't believe that my wanting to volunteer my time to help EotA could be demonized like that.
Penis.

Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

EotA--false appearance of depth...