Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

In this world everything is far from perfect. Just because he says so about a point he's defending doesn't automatically mean it's failing.

Dark_Nemesis wrote:Uhm....so you provide articles attacking your healthcare system, admit yourself that it is far from perfect, and we are suppose to get an overhaul and join the rest of Europe and Canadian in their wonderful system? That is not how the world works. If something is failing, you don't embrace it.

If you want to talk about Europe, you have to accept that comparing Europes whole medicine system to the USA is like comparing some redneck settlement to Germanys healthcare. Yaks article proved that the rich european countrys have as good healthcare as the USA.

Dark, (This goes for everyone obviously) you will respect anything the mods say that is forum guideline related. If you want to question the mods' proper usage of power and/or dispute something, do so in a PM, NOT IN THREADS.

Failure to comply with this from here on out gets you a temp ban or worse.

Dark_Nemesis wrote:

If you want to talk about Europe, you have to accept that comparing Europes whole medicine system to the USA is like comparing some redneck settlement to Germanys healthcare.

I find this to be highly ironic since the supporters of an overhaul as well as Europeans in general use this argument in virtually every facet of their proposals and claims. Also, many of my more liberal friends/acquaintances say this as well, so...?

You are so stubbornly trying to defend your ideas that you fail to accept the obvious things.
This thread is finished unless we all agree to ignore DN.

[Reaper] Edited for light flaming

Dekar wrote:Yaks article proved that the rich european countrys have as good healthcare as the USA, even with their oh so bad healthcare system.

Here is either the original report, or something similar. Some charts are around the bottom. Data's mixed - US ahead in some areas, about even in others (minus one or two countries with absurdly low numbers in specific areas, not sure what's going on there) By the way, there's plenty of variance within the US itself, based on location.

Currently trying to dig up other numbers - most of what I'm pulling up is biased opinions or anecdotal evidence but little hard numbers to compare. Here's One article saying US ER wait times are roughly an hour, vs. 10 to 20 hour wait times in Canada (although I'm unclear if this is just one crappy region or nationwide). A blog puts Canada at 4 hours. I can't find ER wait times for Europe.

I'm curious, reading up on this gives me the impression that a lot of European/Canada has had some more recent changes to health care to improve cost/efficiency. Is this accurrate? I'm wondering how much of what we hear is recycled from the Clinton years and thus out of date - and thus, we're effectly comparing the US's untouched system to recently improved other systems. Just to be clear: I don't think anyone is realisticly saying the US system doesn't need fixing, just all health care "reform" just talks about expanding coverage, not updating the broken system.

And a side note: I found out Obama's plan does include electronic records. This is at least one good part of the bill, not sure what real effect on cost or time it will have though.

DarnYak

I'm curious, reading up on this gives me the impression that a lot of European/Canada has had some more recent changes to health care to improve cost/efficiency. Is this accurrate? I'm wondering how much of what we hear is recycled from the Clinton years and thus out of date - and thus, we're effectly comparing the US's untouched system to recently improved other systems. Just to be clear: I don't think anyone is realisticly saying the US system doesn't need fixing, just all health care "reform" just talks about expanding coverage, not updating the broken system.

Actually there were a few newspaper articles I was reading earlier and two of the ones I put there specifically cited instances where some of the conservative claims about foreign systems were outdated by at least 15 years.

Currently trying to dig up other numbers - most of what I'm pulling up is biased opinions or anecdotal evidence but little hard numbers to compare. Here's One article saying US ER wait times are roughly an hour, vs. 10 to 20 hour wait times in Canada (although I'm unclear if this is just one crappy region or nationwide). A blog puts Canada at 4 hours. I can't find ER wait times for Europe.

I'm too tired now but there was a huge article in the Globe & Mail comparing the systems and talking about some of the criticisms Americans were making about wait times. To basically sum it up, a lot of the information being used on wait times comes from Canada's north which has a pretty horrible reputation for population density (we're one of the lowest in the world and up there you get maybe one family every 500 miles) or from the Maritimes (which have been in a depression since 1949). Some of the wait times have been fudged too by comparing non-essential surgeries (things like removing non-lethal cysts on one's elbow) to essential surgeries (lung or kidney transplant). Organ donor wait times are exacerbated also by the fact like everywhere else in the world we have a massive shortage of organs, so people on waiting lists are literally waiting for someone to donate them a kidney pretty much.

We do have wait time problems though in comparison to America but it's different from what's being portrayed. A lot of the wait times are either by inept doctors (we need better medical training), lack of internal competition, provincial and federal corruption (and ineptitude) or because of the complexities of transport (if you break your leg in Dawson's Creek, YU or Revelstoke, BC you're going to have a helluva time getting to a doctor than a guy who lives in downtown Toronto). It's kind of pathetic logistics and poor planning, not necessarily the way we've designed our medical system (it has flaws elsewhere that are being ignored mostly because they're mundane and don't shock people into hating it).

Still I don't think America should adopt Canada's system since I think the better ones are in Europe not up here.

German healthcare is getting reformed all the time.

This survey leaves me with a rather unimpressed view of the best healthcare in the world in the USA:
http://www.kunnskapssenteret.no/binary?id=9864

I can't get that page to come up, even using a German proxy...
Oddly, this comes up fine: http://www.kunnskapssenteret.no/

Dekar wrote:

Dark_Nemesis wrote:

If you want to talk about Europe, you have to accept that comparing Europes whole medicine system to the USA is like comparing some redneck settlement to Germanys healthcare.

I find this to be highly ironic since the supporters of an overhaul as well as Europeans in general use this argument in virtually every facet of their proposals and claims. Also, many of my more liberal friends/acquaintances say this as well, so...?

You are so stubbornly trying to defend your ideas that you fail to accept the obvious things.
This thread is finished unless we all agree to ignore DN.

[Reaper] Edited for light flaming

i was under the impression that was a standard operating procedure...

Moved some posts out, but the gist was Serbian healthcare is the best ever (apparently) and has Obama passed his healthcare plan yet (which I think is..no?)

What do you think of Ted Kennedy dying and how's that gonna affect shit and stuff.

Dekar, while that does provide some proof, I question some of it. I'm reading 'people who reported it VERY DIFFICULT' . . .well, that means different things for different people.

Some of the other issues I'm gonna chalk up to the way we teach our doctors.(Not gonna go into that unless asked.)

And hey, we do have some good things. Transitional care/communcation(Go go litigious society!)
and care for the chronically ill (Obesity?)

Overall, though, I don't really see any one country that's good at everything, in medical terms. Each country studied seemed to do well in different things, and do poorly in others. Just the way it goes, I guess.

What do you think of Ted Kennedy dying and how's that gonna affect shit and stuff.

Me being a Conservative, and Ted being a Liberal, you can basically guess how much I truly care.

I honestly didn't know a whole lot about the guy, so it's basically "Meh, well, that's one less dude trying to pass bad policies".

Putting personal beliefs aside, it's sad when anyone dies, and you can't deny his commitment to his party, even if you don't like or agree with it.

So...R.I.P Senator.

Serbia's healthcare is still the best.

You can't hide the truth by deleting some posts.

OK, maybe you can, but will you be able to live with it for the rest of your life?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sErjepleXM8

I can't really add more than this.

DarnYak

I'm confused Yak

Anyhow, did anyone see the dude off to the right? I thought he was a manikin. He freaken didn't move!

The world needs more manikins and that was a very heartfelt goodbye from Byrd.

Who is that guy in Yaks video and what does he want?

Dekar wrote:Who is that guy in Yaks video and what does he want?

That is Senator Robert Byrd

DarnYak

I stopped reading the wiki entry after KKK, 9 years memberships, no interest in the KKK.

Thats the kind of politicans we need!

What roles does he have regarding the healthcare stuff?

Dekar wrote:What roles does he have regarding the healthcare stuff?

Besides being an old democrat that's in the hospital more often then not? I don't know exactly. I just know he's senile and I fail to understand why he's allowed to keep his job.

That reminds me, there was another senator that had a stroke right after reelection, i'm not sure if he ever got replaced or if he's still expecting his seat when he recovers (aka never)

DarnYak

He's also from the most patriotic state, West Virginia, which couldn't handle joining with the traitorous south and kept with the union. God bless!

Dark_Nemesis wrote:We? We are talking about the U.S. here.

Dekar's from Germany. They like Muhammad & the Nazis there, remember? The KKK is much like the Nazis.

DarnYak