Part 1: Introduction & Beginnings

Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
DarnYak
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2364
Joined: August 12th, 2006, 2:54 pm

Part 1: Introduction & Beginnings

#1 Post by DarnYak »

As I work towards the final version of EotA: Twilight, it's been making me ponder the result; how it came to the point it's at, what was done right, what was done wrong, what I would do differently, etc. I know I've read articles doing a post-mortem on game development before, so I thought it might be fun to do one for EotA and let bored people read my ramblings.

Beginnings
Originally I had made EotA: Exodus (just known as EotA at the time) intending it to be a single map giving me an opportunity to learn how the WC3 map editor worked. Inspiration for Exodus has come from this stupid SC map called "Defend the Temple", which wasn't particularly good but I found it fairly entertaining. I had to develop and test Exodus through public test games because I had noone who could help me at the time, and during these I had run into GraveI and Shortling, who became regular testers.

Through them I was introduced to Clan ToB (Tides of Blood, incase there's any confusion) on West. I had played some ToB and other AoS's before (although, oddly, only DotA once and I didn't like it). Did some inhouse games with them (obviously quite a different experience then pubbing it) and learnt the basic flow of how it went. Was pretty impressed, but I disliked how the gameflow ended up working out in game after game.

I don't remember how the decision to make Twilight came about. I believe Grav and Short encouraged me to make my own map, but I was more interested in making a simple concept map to try out a few things, and perhaps contribute some hero skill ideas. I had no intention for EotA to become a stand alone map with long term viability. That unfortunate decision lead to much headache down the road when it came to putting everything together. The name was one of the last things to be finalized before it went into public beta, and for its initial development was simply (and temporarilly) called "Frost War".

Terrain
When starting, I had wanting something a bit larger than ToB. I don't know how I got the current size of Stormwail - I think I just guessed at what I thought it was and went from there. Turned out it was massively larger. Ooops. I've always wondered how many players EotA lost purely from the size of the map, it seems to be one of the most consistent complaints from new players.

The original layout did use the vast majority of the terrain though, so I don't think it was too bad of a mistake - although I'm still left with two giant unused areas that I can't figure out what to do with. The number of lanes was different just because I didn't want yet another 3 lane AoS. In addition, the game flow concept was suppose to be different - more of a fluid base control dynamic. It was also in theory better for comebacks - losing 1 ouf ot 10 bases is only 10% of your forces, whereas 1 out of 6 is almost 20% (or, if not double layered bases, then a whole 33%).

Another reason I wanted a larger map for extra space for alternate paths (from command towers) and player made outposts (more on this in another post), as well as just general hero movement and ambushing. Hero movement was unintentionally fairly restricted due to all the cliffs, and it slowly improved over time as more paths and ramps were added.

The general terrain look I settled on pretty early. Partly because it was tenanatively called Frost War, but I also wanted terrain you didnt' usually see in other maps. I also wanted the terrain to have more of a feel of which area of the map you were on, but not an extremely clear diliniation. Snow fit this perfectly - one side has very little, and it gradually gets covered as you move to the other side of the map. I also wanted mountainous terrain, partly inspired by an extremely old screenshot of warcraft 3 before it became what it was today.

Early testing also lead to a decision to make each lane more distinct for easier reference. In a three lane map, you obviously have top/bottom or left/right and mid. With 5 lanes you end up with "second from top" or such, too akward to refer to quickly. Thus I decided to give each lane a more distinct feature to make it easier for players to reference. This could have been done in a far more distinctive way, but I made the poor decision attempting to make it seem more natural (which makes it harder to notice). Thus i coated the bottom lane with flowers (so bototm was suppose ot be called flower lane), the ridge above it has a crapton of mushrooms (that empty hill area was suppose to be an alternate path lane after all), then I put hoses on inn, a fuckton of rocks on..rock. I dont remember what the north lane and north ridge were even suppose to be anymore. Top might have been ruins, because I put a bunch of broken columns and such up there.
Stormwail Original.jpg
This is the terrain from the oldest version I have (the last file where it was named "Frost War"). Obviously the terraining on this wasn't anywhere close to done, but the basic layout was. Before this there were at least two additional major changes. Middle used to be more of a straight line between the bases, with a peak in the middle where Rockin' Arthas was located (he was added extremely early, I think just a bonus feature to change the current music originally). The other change not shown on this version is that on rock/inn lanes the bases were more foward, just across the bridges to now where the obelisks stand. Both of these lanes were changed for the same reason - the walking distance between bases was so short that pushes never developed, and heroes could retreat far to easily. Also note there used to be fountains in mid itself (hell, there used to be fountains in the bases before I came up with the idea to allow town halls to heal)

Obviously there were a few major changes that came after the version shown above. The reinforcement bases for Rock/Inn were moved to corner, partly because I wanted to create a secondary "main base" at the corners (hmm, maybe I should put a second item shop there...) and partly because once the armies were in the front bases, the spawn waves would just walk past them. It was pretty comical to have tiny spawn waves attacking the enemy base there while your front base was being overrun. The other big change was the front bases on mid were pushed foward some, because the travel distance between those two bases simply became too long with all the twists and turns.

Later on, the snow was removed from Stormwail for two reasons. First, the particle effects just looked like crap with a white background. You could hardly see most of them. Second, I originally wanted to update the map to be more seasonal. The original version came out in winter or spring. I was going to have it cycle terrains with the acutal seasons, so all the snow would be gone in the summer, then it would switch to the brownish tileset in the fall, etc. Obviously, that never happened, partly because after one switch I came to realize what a pain in the ass it was. Later on came the idea of multiple maps, and I had to stick with the current tileset because it offered the diversity of possible uses I needed.

The Good: Stormwail is obviously the most liked EotA terrain, although one could argue that's due to Kedge/Gloom/Candle being so bad. Comebacks, while fairly rare, are certainly possible when the game is actually balanced. The map is huge, but most people realize it doesn't take that long to get around with teleporting, and even then its not too bad to go from one lane to another (getting from main bases to the front line is still a bitch though). The empty terrain is often unused but occational tactics will still make good use of it (towering behind cliffs for example).

The Bad: Empty terrain is still empty in the end. While I love the option for little used tricks, they never got used enough, and were never really balanced as a result. The terrain itself is also not as good looking as it could be (espeicaly compared to the new Verdant Falls), but that comes with experience.

What would I change: I'd probably make the map a bit smaller, especialy with how far behind the back bases are. There is almost no purpose for that inbetween space, espeically at its current size. The dead space on each side is also a constant annoyance to me. I'd love to do something with it, but it feels too far behind enemy lines to realisticly expect people to harrass anything put there, and if the front lines get pushed to around there then the game is usually decided anyway.

jamn455
Corpse
Corpse
Posts: 1024
Joined: August 13th, 2006, 11:17 am
Realm: Azeroth (U.S. East)
Location: Trollville, FlAmerica

Re: Part 1: Introduction & Beginnings

#2 Post by jamn455 »

I miss the multiplying owls. Bring them back.

User avatar
Dekar
Jelly Doughnut
Posts: 1433
Joined: May 27th, 2006, 8:13 am
Realm: Northrend (Europe)
Battle.net name: Dekar
Location: Germany

Re: Part 1: Introduction & Beginnings

#3 Post by Dekar »

Nice idea to write a post-mortem.

Owls + Storm Banner was the best combo in EotA.

User avatar
Discombobulator
Retired
Retired
Posts: 710
Joined: September 19th, 2006, 4:16 pm
Battle.net name: Karunecm
Contact:

Re: Part 1: Introduction & Beginnings

#4 Post by Discombobulator »

Make sure you back this up, with the luck you've had with sites hosting EotA.

User avatar
DarnYak
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2364
Joined: August 12th, 2006, 2:54 pm

Re: Part 1: Introduction & Beginnings

#5 Post by DarnYak »

That thought occurred to me as well.

DarnYak

User avatar
Strychnyne
Addict
Addict
Posts: 200
Joined: August 13th, 2006, 3:44 pm
Location: Outside the Asylum

Re: Part 1: Introduction & Beginnings

#6 Post by Strychnyne »

I really like all the empty space, to be honest. One of the things I find EotA does better than most other maps is bring a sense of realism to the battle. It feels less like an arena and more like an actual battle that took place. Plus I play at full zoom so I get to enjoy it all more/it doesn't feel so big.

User avatar
Setokaiva
Resident
Resident
Posts: 106
Joined: March 3rd, 2009, 7:09 am
Realm: Azeroth (U.S. East)
Battle.net name: Setokaiva

Re: Part 1: Introduction & Beginnings

#7 Post by Setokaiva »

Amen to that. Most AoS games I've played are far too restrictive or dependent on doing things a certain way; DotA is a prime example due to it's huge reliance on personal skill and items. EotA's huge size and outpost system allows for a lot of fun because you aren't restricted to one base all game with little towers in the lanes, it really feels like a war effort and strategy really does come into play here. EotA's massive array of options gives an unprecedented degree of freedom in the AoS genre and allows for a lot of fun combinations and strategies. You successfully destroyed the utter reliance on items without making them completely useless through inventive consumable design and other ways to spend your gold; really, Heroes can pretty much win on their own with little or no items.

Thank you, Yak, for taking the time and patience to bring us such an amazing set of maps. I wish you luck in your future ventures and hope you will continue to bring awesomeness and fresh originality to people suffering from cliche games.

Also, thanks for writing the Post-Mortem, nice to hear the story behind such an incredible series. :)

User avatar
Discombobulator
Retired
Retired
Posts: 710
Joined: September 19th, 2006, 4:16 pm
Battle.net name: Karunecm
Contact:

Re: Part 1: Introduction & Beginnings

#8 Post by Discombobulator »

Setokaiva wrote:Amen to that. Most AoS games I've played are far too restrictive or dependent on doing things a certain way; DotA is a prime example due to it's huge reliance on personal skill and items. EotA's huge size and outpost system allows for a lot of fun because you aren't restricted to one base all game with little towers in the lanes, it really feels like a war effort and strategy really does come into play here. EotA's massive array of options gives an unprecedented degree of freedom in the AoS genre and allows for a lot of fun combinations and strategies. You successfully destroyed the utter reliance on items without making them completely useless through inventive consumable design and other ways to spend your gold; really, Heroes can pretty much win on their own with little or no items.

Thank you, Yak, for taking the time and patience to bring us such an amazing set of maps. I wish you luck in your future ventures and hope you will continue to bring awesomeness and fresh originality to people suffering from cliche games.

Also, thanks for writing the Post-Mortem, nice to hear the story behind such an incredible series. :)
DotA does have its problems, but seriously? You sound like you're only flaming it because you suck at it, even more than the random neckbearded "DotA is killing WC3 modding" hipster.

Also why the fuck is bbcode disabled?

Post Reply