So yeah

[Discombobulator]

College starts in the second week of October for me.

And it's completely free.

Another way Serbia's 10000000% better than America.

[jamn455]

My college is free, and I live in the United States.

[Luftwaffles]

Mine just upped tuition by like 20% and I'm in Canada.

[Tehw00tz]

In Louisiana you are given about 1000 dollars for maintaining a 2.0


Yeah, get a C average and they'll help pay for your college. God bless America.

[Discombobulator]

I'm not talking about "we suck so we pay you to come" college, I'm talking about the second best college in the country and a very popular course with very strong competition on the entrace exams.

[Lanthis]

Not to flame, but based upon my friend's first hand accounts of stories from China, Saudi, and others, many international universities are jokes. China would be the worst example since the teachers pretty much make up grades, according to multiple people who spent years there.

Further, while many international schools may be better than US schools, graduates of US schools have considerably more opportunity. Consider Japan, where you can spend your last 8 years of primary school going to cram schools, enter a top rate university, and then slave as a salaryman for your entire life.

Further, going to a top rate college doesn't mean anything with regards to you. Everyone learns pretty much the same stuff everywhere, unless you're studying a bleeding edge field and end up getting a mentor or internship with a leader in your field. That's what college is really all about. Networking.

I don't really understand the point of coming to a forum with what is probably mostly Americans, and bashing America, when we offer the same crap as your country. Some ivy leagues like Princeton offer free tuition if your family can't afford it.

If we could fix our worst citizens and our faults we would. As William Gibson said "The future is here. It's just not widely distributed yet." Hopefully all of the poor, ignorant masses are brought up to speed really quickly.

[CryptLord1234]

From what I've heard from quite a few people in the business world, your college performance really only matters in A) networking (already been covered) and B) for the first couple jobs. Beyond that, it's your recommendations and performance at previous jobs that get you hired.

I don't really understand the point of coming to a forum with what is probably mostly Americans, and bashing America, when we offer the same crap as your country.

. . .and don't bash Serbia very much at all, unless in self-defense.

EDIT: corrected spelling errors.

[Tehw00tz]

I'm not talking about "we suck so we pay you to come" college, I'm talking about the second best college in the country and a very popular course with very strong competition on the entrace exams.

This goes for all colleges in Louisiana, including one of the top 50 colleges in the United Stats, Tulane University.

[Cokemonkey11]

College starts in the second week of October for me.

And it's completely free.

Another way Serbia's 10000000% better than America.

Enjoy those taxes and oligarchical nazi nonsense.

[CryptLord1234]

This goes for all colleges in Louisiana, including one of the top 50 colleges in the United Stats, Tulane University.

I actually got quite a deal from them. But my home state's university was cheaper, for not much difference in curriculum. Not paying another ~$7,000 for a name, tyvm.

[Luftwaffles]

From what I've heard from quite a few people in the business world, your college performance really only matters in A) networking (already been covered) and B) for the first couple jobs. Beyond that, it's your recommendations and performance at previous jobs that get you hired.

In order to get good starting jobs and avoid a lot of BS though you want to do well in college and go to one that's going to maximize early returns so you can get ahead in whatever specialty you enter. I'm majoring in Psyc and Poli Sci and neither is going to get me a (decent, relevant) job with a BA, but with high enough grades (and honors) I'll have more scholarship options in Canada and far more options to study down south (especially if my grades are really, really high) then I would just coasting.

[Lanthis]

GL Luft. I know tons of people with those degrees and all of them are doing very non-traditional/diverse things, ex) Teaching English in Saudi, Peace Corps in Africa, Substitute teaching math. One is going to law school...

[Luftwaffles]

Well I'm thinking of going to go teach English in Japan/Korea since you get paid pretty well and I could afford to get my Masters in the US, which is where I really wanna study. If I have that then I can actually work in my field xD

[Discombobulator]

Not to flame, but based upon my friend's first hand accounts of stories from China, Saudi, and others, many international universities are jokes. China would be the worst example since the teachers pretty much make up grades, according to multiple people who spent years there.

Further, while many international schools may be better than US schools, graduates of US schools have considerably more opportunity. Consider Japan, where you can spend your last 8 years of primary school going to cram schools, enter a top rate university, and then slave as a salaryman for your entire life.

Further, going to a top rate college doesn't mean anything with regards to you. Everyone learns pretty much the same stuff everywhere, unless you're studying a bleeding edge field and end up getting a mentor or internship with a leader in your field. That's what college is really all about. Networking.

I don't really understand the point of coming to a forum with what is probably mostly Americans, and bashing America, when we offer the same crap as your country. Some ivy leagues like Princeton offer free tuition if your family can't afford it.

If we could fix our worst citizens and our faults we would. As William Gibson said "The future is here. It's just not widely distributed yet." Hopefully all of the poor, ignorant masses are brought up to speed really quickly.

We have lots of opportunity. There are millions of scholarships and work opportunities in the EU, guess they prefer us to Turks and Arabs. I have to think really, really hard about which EU scholarship to accept.

Your next arguments are pretty terrible. You just tried to imply that Serbia's schools are worse than in the US, then proceeded to talk about how little a good school means. Even if you're correct on that point, networking at a top university is worth a lot more than at a diploma mill.

College starts in the second week of October for me.

And it's completely free.

Another way Serbia's 10000000% better than America.

Enjoy those taxes and oligarchical nazi nonsense.

Hello, I know that you are uninformed about Serbia, you really don't need to remind me.

Taxes? If you decide to pay taxes, you get complete health insurance, a retirement plan, social security on steroids and probably a million little things. You can decide not to pay them, or mix the two options for the optimal outcome.

Oligarchical? My country does not have fathers and sons as presidents, nor political dynasties like the Kennedys. We also have a better Election Index (says the Economist) than the US (9.17 compared to 8.75). The last time we had electional irregularities, we rose up and took down that government. US electional controversies? I loved the movies about how Bush got to power, even though he really lost. Really, you might want to inform yourself before posting.

[Dekar]

Funny, America has the lowest civil liberties score of all full democracys except South Korea. But everybody has the right to carry a gun! How can that be?!
*misses DN*

[Discombobulator]

There's a left-wing bias, DUH.

[CryptLord1234]

In order to get good starting jobs and avoid a lot of BS though you want to do well in college and go to one that's going to maximize early returns so you can get ahead in whatever specialty you enter. I'm majoring in Psyc and Poli Sci and neither is going to get me a (decent, relevant) job with a BA, but with high enough grades (and honors) I'll have more scholarship options in Canada and far more options to study down south (especially if my grades are really, really high) then I would just coasting.

Oh, no doubt, just saying it matters for the first few jobs, then job experience and reviews start weighing more than your grades.

[DarnYak]

Funny, America has the lowest civil liberties score of all full democracys except South Korea. But everybody has the right to carry a gun! How can that be?!
*misses DN*

Link info.

DarnYak

[Dekar]

The Economist Intelligence Unit's Index of Democracy 2008, Table 2

http://a330.g.akamai.net/7/330/25828/20 ... 202008.pdf

[Luftwaffles]

Canada gets such high scores but it sure doesn't feel like we're that free or that we have a decent democracy. I wonder what they base it on.

[DarnYak]

Quickly reading through their criteria, I can see why the US is ranked in the middle. For one, we're techniclay a representative republic, NOT a democracy. I don't think pure democracies are a good thing, but that's not realy part of this discussion.

Other factors vary (and i'm highly skeptical of all the 10s the top euro countries get, but I dont know enough about it to argue), but I can't say i really agree with a few of them. Voter participation is one example - I wish less uninformed ignorant people would vote, whether they agree with me or not (although, granted, most people who think of themselves as educated/informed are heavily biased and usually aren't actually educated/informed). Similarly the number of active participants is a factor, but I'm not sure that's at all necessary for a healthy democracy.

Going down to civil libertries, i dont see how the hell we aren't ranked a 10, much less the lowest score on the chart (which you were referencing). I guess 'torturing' a single non-citizen jackass on foreign territory dropped us down a full point (assuming you even accept its torture). Nothing else really sticks out to me except for some discrimination crap, which doesn't really exist anymore imo, but even if it does its by private citizens not the government.

Class soon, can't look at it more. Overall I don't buy this list.

DarnYak

[mianmian]

Going to a big name school is important because the world is run not by what you know, but by who you know. Everywhere, thats it.

[Luftwaffles]

Going down to civil libertries, i dont see how the hell we aren't ranked a 10, much less the lowest score on the chart (which you were referencing). I guess 'torturing' a single non-citizen jackass on foreign territory dropped us down a full point (assuming you even accept its torture). Nothing else really sticks out to me except for some discrimination crap, which doesn't really exist anymore imo, but even if it does its by private citizens not the government.

Here's how they explain it:

"In the US there has been aperceptible erosion in civil liberties related to the fight against terrorism. Longstanding problems in the functioning of government have also becomemore prominent."

"The Economist newspaper recentlyconcluded that "economic liberty is under attack and capitalism, the systemwhich embodies it, is at bay." (Economist, October 18-24). The UK, the birthplaceof modern privatisation and deregulation, has nationalised much of its bankingindustry. The US and other governments in many developed countries appearpoised to follow. It is unlikely that the statist trend will be limited to only thefinancial sector (“socialism in one sector”). The pro-regulation climate will likelyaffect other sectors also."

Page 15-16 is where they detail out the philosophy of this whole Index, and starting on page 18 they go through how they have quantified democracy, reasoning behind methods, etc. Page 28-30 is where you'll find information on how they scored Civil Liberties. Reading through it, you can see where the US would've lost a point or half a point; things like religious freedom, use of torture, members spared prosecution under law, respect of human rights, discrimination on the basis of color or race, and "extent to which government invokes new risks and threats as an excuse for curbing civil liberties" were are all things the US could've seen deduct from their score.

I think in general the Economist takes both the practical de facto application of these variables and the de jure qualification of said variables through law or social practice and compares them (which justifies the use of "Flawed" and "Hybrid" systems of democracy and stuff like that).

Also the U.S. is definitely a democracy, it's just a representitive democracy (or arguably a representitive(-direct) democracy, with the (-direct) applying to traditional usage of the Electoral College and the way the judiciary is determined) not a direct democracy. I think it's a strawman of how they designed their Index (which, if you look at how it's done is pretty legit and well-explained) to say that the U.S. scored low on Civil Liberties for just "torturing one guy". They seem to have taken a real birds-eye view approach to the whole system in the U.S. (and other countries) and aren't just basing it simply on feelings or emotions about a particular country (look at how high Serbia scored and they're rarely propped up by the U.S. unless to talk about Kosovo).

[DarnYak]

I think it's a strawman of how they designed their Index (which, if you look at how it's done is pretty legit and well-explained) to say that the U.S. scored low on Civil Liberties for just "torturing one guy".

I was on limited time inbetween classes so I couldn't read the whole article, which included the explaination you quoted. I just found their list of questions they evaluated and didn't see any reason to the low score. Wasn't trying to mischaractize the scoring.

I'll go over it in more detail tomorrow (maybe). Busy tonight.

DarnYak

[CryptLord1234]

I'll go over it in more detail tomorrow (maybe). Busy tonight.

DarnYak

...Working on D, I hope?