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 Post subject: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 4:58 pm 
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This post looks like a fragment of a discussion because it is. I felt it should be made it's own topic due to derailment of another thread.
Theories of evolution: The scientifically tested and verified explanations for the fact of evolution.
Fact of evolution: The observed alteration of an organism over time by study of fossil evidence.

What circular reasoning? You've repeatedly assigned the definition of "hypothesis" to the word "theory," despite repeated explanations to the contrary.
I find it hard to believe that any intelligent supporter of evolution claimed that a primate had evolutionary remnants of gills. Regardless, if it's not true, you will not find any version of the theory of evolution that contains such a claim. You can prove hypothetical support for the theory of evolution wrong without proving the theory of evolution wrong.
Why do I have to provide support for a scientific fact? Do you have a habit of disbelieving in a force which attracts two objects together, generally known as gravity?

Theories of gravity: The scientifically tested and verified explanations for the fact of gravity.
Fact of gravity: The observed attraction of bodies of mass towards each other.

If you are truly of an open mind and willing to engage in research, this site seems to contain a plethora of information on the fact and theory of evolution. It also seems to cite sources. I use "seems" because I have not had a chance to read even a significant portion.

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Last edited by Ford Prefect on August 18th, 2009, 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 5:06 pm 
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As nobody knows ( as sure as for other forces ) how gravity works, its a kinda bad example.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 5:11 pm 
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That and gravity is a law, hence the Law of Gravity. Keyword there is Law, like the Laws of Thermodynamics upon which rest Science as we know it.


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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 5:14 pm 
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"Scientific law" and "scientific fact" are interchangeable. Edit: This isn't exactly true.

Dekar wrote:
As nobody knows ( as sure as for other forces ) how gravity works, its a kinda bad example.
It's an excellent example, as the exact workings of evolution are not yet known. In addition, the fact of gravity cannot be disputed by any sane person, thus it makes an excellent comparison to the fact of evolution.

I need to note that theories can and will be revised on the discovery of new and contradictory evidence. They are rarely discarded outright, since they were proven so thoroughly in the first place. However, when a theory gets revised or replaced, the fact which they explain doesn't stop existing just because our explanation of how they exist has undergone a change. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but gravity kept right on attracting while we changed our explanation.

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Last edited by Ford Prefect on August 20th, 2009, 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 5:18 pm 
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If you are truly of an open mind


Lol, someone has some explaining to do.

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gravity cannot be disputed by any sane person, thus it makes an excellent comparison to the fact of evolution.


What?

So you are admitting evolution has to be argued by the insane? And it's all relative? I missed something...

And how the hell do you know evolution happened, were you there?

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 5:30 pm 
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Okay, the knowledge of gravity comes from being sane and realizing you tend to stick to the ground, and even draw towards it when you're not sticking to it. With the knowledge of evolution, you would not dispute it, just as you do not dispute gravity because you have knowledge of it. I was not implying that disputing evolution makes you insane. If you had all of the evidence for evolution in front of you and then you disputed it, I would call you insane.

If you need an explanation of an open mind, then I will be happy to provide. An open mind is willing to accept the possibility of any concept which is reasonable. When further presented with factual evidence of the concept, an open mind will believe that concept to be the truth, with the caveat that if future factual evidence contradicts the concept in part or whole, the concept will require revision to be accepted as truth once again. In extreme cases, a concept that was originally believed as true may revert to a possibility or even become a falsehood. An open mind further acknowledges and considers subjective information, without accepting that information as factual evidence.

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Last edited by Ford Prefect on August 18th, 2009, 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 5:44 pm 
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Darwin or not, Cockroaches and Bacteria are an epitome of the definition for evolution.
Change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.

Poisons for cockroaches keep changing due to their insane genetic adaptability (evolution), which the surviving ones will breed, with their offspring with a partial resistance. The repetition of such will result in innate immunity to such poison. Same problem exists with bacteria and soap.

The aspect of it, exists. Fact.

The sequence of how it happened and how we are today, such as "we came from apes, which came from an amphibian, which came from a fish, which came from something similar to an amoeba which came from bacteria." Not 100% proven, and could be considered up in the air.


What I believe he's getting at with Newton and Gravity, is a lot of his research was found wrong, however we know that gravity exists, and we can apply it via saying "Inside this vacuum; if I drop this ball from X height, it will land at exactly Y time."

The same could easily be said the same with Darwinism, even if there's flaws in his research, it doesn't disprove that evolution exists. They can and DO predict the aspects and possibilities of "if this animal is mated with this other animal, then here's the possibilities, none will be out side these possibilities."

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Last edited by GeneralFunk on August 18th, 2009, 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 5:45 pm 
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We think to know that through mutations evolution happens. We know the results are new races.
We dont know how gravity works. We know stuff falls down.

We only know the result of gravity, but we think to know the mechanic of evolution.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 5:48 pm 
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In response to GeneralFunk: That is incorrect. All steps in the evolutionary process that are proven by fossil record are not in dispute. Humans and primates share a common ape-like ancestor. This is a fact, regardless of which theory or theories correctly explain how it happened.

In response to Dekar: What part of Einstein's theory of gravitation is in dispute?

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 5:53 pm 
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The quantum mechanics part.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 5:53 pm 
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If you had all of the evidence for evolution in front of you and then you disputed it, I would call you insane.


Except that isn't even close to reality, Ford. Why do you think there is so much debate going on, within evolutionists as well? Not to mention the fallacies, contradictions, arguments, counter-arguments. The text books constantly getting revised, edited, changed.

As it stands, there simply isn't enough evidence to conclude evolution is a factual occurrence, not even close.

And just to throw something out into the wind, matter can neither be created nor destroyed, so if this is true, how did the big bang happen again?

Imagine if I decided to take a bag of dust, shake it around for 5 minutes, then open it. What would I get? A bag of dust, right? What if I tried for 10 minutes? 10 hours? 100 years? And I am suppose to believe the earth was created from literally the same process? That's a stretch imo, and far harder to believe then some powerful-guy-in-the-sky with a white beard and snowy robes. :|

Oh, and just to clarify, the fossil record thing is largely misguided and incorrect.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 5:55 pm 
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Except that it has been concluded by biologists that evolution occurred and continues to occur. Now they simply want to explain how in the best way possible and they already have many fine and proven explanations to do so.

The only people who have, uh, "proven" the fossil record to be incorrect are religious "scientists." If this is incorrect; if you have some evidence of a fossil of a newer evolution of a creature being found in strata below that of an older evolution of that creature; for example, please, let me know.

Your magnificent oversimplification of the diverse chemical reactions which take place on our planet is awe-inspiring.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 5:57 pm 
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Except that it has been concluded by biologists


EXACTLY Ford, bologists. But which ones? Those that believe in evolution? How do you know their opinion is correct? There is a very high chance it is biased and not based off of science. I have met these guys btw.

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The only people who have, uh, "proven" the fossil record to be incorrect are religious "scientists."

Your magnificent oversimplification of the diverse chemical reactions which take place on our planet is awe-inspiring.


I shall take these as praise.

So your saying only non-religious people can be "scientists?"

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 6:00 pm 
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Which biologist specializing in the study of evolution have you met that believed evolution to be non-factual? Surely such a person exists. If evolution is untrue, someone would want to prove this massive lie perpetrated on society false and undertake the necessary investigations to do so.

No, I believe that an objective person of any religion, class, or creed can be a scientist, but any person who's goal and funding is provided by a religious group should definitely have their motives questioned and their methods rigorously examined. The same is true for anyone funded by an organization with ulterior motives. By that token, if someone provides false or altered evidence in order to support a false claim, they don't deserve the title of scientist, regardless of their education.

For Dekar: "However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution." Evolution is a Fact and a Theory

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Last edited by Ford Prefect on August 18th, 2009, 6:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 6:20 pm 
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No, I believe that an objective person of any religion, class, or creed can be a scientist, but any person who's goal and funding is provided by a religious group should definitely have their motives questioned and their methods rigorously examined. The same is true for anyone funded by an organization with ulterior motives. By that token, if someone provides false or altered evidence in order to support a false claim, they don't deserve the title of scientist, regardless of their education.


It's too bad it hasn't been working this way.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 6:34 pm 
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An interesting article, in which those of a religious persuasion felt the need to question the heliocentric nature of our solar system. For those of you who have forgotten your junior high science, heliocentric means that stuff revolves around the sun (and, not the Earth, as some proclaim). Why did he question it? Why, it was (and is) only a theory, of course. I think it goes on to discuss evolution, but I'm not that far into it, yet. It does, and it should also be noted that the author believes in God.

Interestingly, apparently, we do have pharyngeal slits (not precisely fish gills, but close enough for common language) as embryos. It's a part of two lesson plans I've found (out of two) for biology taught at universities.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 8:51 pm 
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What's your point?

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 9:52 pm 
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Dark_Nemesis wrote:
EXACTLY Ford, bologists. But which ones? Those that believe in evolution? How do you know their opinion is correct? There is a very high chance it is biased and not based off of science. I have met these guys btw.

So your saying only non-religious people can be "scientists?"


I'd like it to be known first off that scientists aren't as light-hearted as most people when it comes to forming an opinion. Also for a biologist, the occurrence and fact of evolution is not a belief or opinion, it is fact, and if they had evidence, good true evidence against evolution, they'd no longer "believe" in evolution because they'd know it to be false. Many of the world's leading biologists are religious, many of which are christian, the majority of which are Catholics and btw they're certain evolution occurred, and they believe it was by God's hand that evolution occurred. We teach evolution because it's a fact, we don't teach that God is behind evolution because it is a belief and opinion, any biologist that believes that God is behind evolution would cringe at the thought of their belief being taught as fact in public schools.

Dark_Nemesis wrote:

Except that isn't even close to reality, Ford. Why do you think there is so much debate going on, within evolutionists as well? Not to mention the fallacies, contradictions, arguments, counter-arguments. The text books constantly getting revised, edited, changed.

As it stands, there simply isn't enough evidence to conclude evolution is a factual occurrence, not even close.

And just to throw something out into the wind, matter can neither be created nor destroyed, so if this is true, how did the big bang happen again?

Imagine if I decided to take a bag of dust, shake it around for 5 minutes, then open it. What would I get? A bag of dust, right? What if I tried for 10 minutes? 10 hours? 100 years? And I am suppose to believe the earth was created from literally the same process? That's a stretch imo, and far harder to believe then some powerful-guy-in-the-sky with a white beard and snowy robes. :|

Oh, and just to clarify, the fossil record thing is largely misguided and incorrect.


Firstly, there is debate going on because new data is always coming into the picture new data which needs to be supplemented into the theory of evolution so it is as accurate and up-to-date as possible. Also there is beyond enough evidence to conclude evolution is a factual occurrence, just as there was evidence the Earth was round, and just as there was evidence the Sun was the center of the solar system.

Also the Big Bang did not work like that. The Big Bang wasn't taking a small amount of matter and multiplying it into more matter, all matter that has and will ever exist has always existed, and during the Big Bang due to an extremely powerful gravitational force, all matter was in one point. I don't know enough on the subject to know what happened so that this force ceased to exist, or weakened enough that all matter flew away from it (I'm not sure anyone knows enough on this subject, seeing how it's hard to talk about something that happened so long ago).

The fossil record "thing" is correct. You don't get more correct than the most cutting edge dating methods and actual fossils.

Dark_Nemesis wrote:
And how the hell do you know evolution happened, were you there?


Don't use this argument, instead use this wonderful tool called your brain. Seriously? This argument can be used against virtually anything, provided that the person you are arguing against wasn't there. Behold a hypothetical situation: "The United States won it's independence in 1776." says Person A. "How the hell do you know, were you there?" asks Person B. You can come up with a better argument than that.

I'm tired of constantly defending things against you with evidence, while you continue to provide none for anything you claim. For once I'd like to see you cite some real evidence, preferably from a credible source.


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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 18th, 2009, 11:39 pm 
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I for one would like to thank my Scandinavian ancestors for heavily evolving to carry the gene for lactose tolerance.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 19th, 2009, 12:33 am 
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Don't use this argument, instead use this wonderful tool called your brain. Seriously? This argument can be used against virtually anything, provided that the person you are arguing against wasn't there. Behold a hypothetical situation: "The United States won it's independence in 1776." says Person A. "How the hell do you know, were you there?" asks Person B. You can come up with a better argument than that.

I'm tired of constantly defending things against you with evidence, while you continue to provide none for anything you claim. For once I'd like to see you cite some real evidence, preferably from a credible source.


Ditto. Provide me with some actual facts then.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 19th, 2009, 12:53 am 
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Dark_Nemesis wrote:
What's your point?
My point is that article is written by a person who knows what the hell he's talking about and goes into great detail about the hows and whys of evolution, providing great and, I think, irrefutable examples of it's occurrence. If you're unable to accept that, there is one, and only one, way in which I can be any more convincing. I would have to personally do all of the many experiments that biologists have done and redone to verify their findings. And, I would probably have to do them in front of you. If that is all that can convince you, then I have nothing more to say to you, and firmly believe that you and others like you should be locked away forever.
If any scientist came into his field of study automatically assuming his predecessors, in large numbers, were liars who collaborated to deceive the world, he would never do any original research as he verifies each and every previous experiment which provided the knowledge base that he has a degree in. It is assumed, quite rightly, by every scientist in every field that the seekers of truth that came before him did, in fact, seek the truth and pass it down in an effort to expand the knowledge of the human race.
Then, people throughout history who find the truth to be inconvenient to them, make up their own versions of events and use word twisting and logic twisting to discredit that truth. For example,there is no debate in scientific circles about whether or not evolution occurred, though debate surely rages on the processes by which it occurred. Despite this, some people would have you believe that the first debate is occurring. Meanwhile, the biologists scratch their heads in bemusement, wondering what debate those people are talking about.
I just realized that some of this is a rehash of what LeCitron said, but I put all that effort into typing it, so I'll leave it be.
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I'm tired of constantly defending things against you with evidence, while you continue to provide none for anything you claim. For once I'd like to see you cite some real evidence, preferably from a credible source.
Ditto. Provide me with some actual facts then.
Alright, how about an article detailing many of the facts of evolution written by a biologist?
In fact, I now submit that as a supposedly open-minded and reasonable person, you provide us with an article detailing the many facts of creationism which disprove evolution written by a biologist. It's only reasonable to provide the same support for your view as I have for mine.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 19th, 2009, 6:44 am 
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...And here I thought that it was common knowledge that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the world imperfectly after getting drunk on Heaven's Beer Volcano.
Oh noes!
So, the question is: WWFSMD?
Having being touched by His Noodly Appendage, we learnt that it was He who planted overwhelming evidence for Evolution.
RAmen!

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 19th, 2009, 7:05 am 
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Dark_Nemesis wrote:
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Don't use this argument, instead use this wonderful tool called your brain. Seriously? This argument can be used against virtually anything, provided that the person you are arguing against wasn't there. Behold a hypothetical situation: "The United States won it's independence in 1776." says Person A. "How the hell do you know, were you there?" asks Person B. You can come up with a better argument than that.

I'm tired of constantly defending things against you with evidence, while you continue to provide none for anything you claim. For once I'd like to see you cite some real evidence, preferably from a credible source.


Ditto. Provide me with some actual facts then.


I've been waiting for this for a while. The only reason I haven't cited yet is because I still have a working knowledge of high school biology. I'll happily start citing. Until I have gathered my sources, enjoy this link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/. And you can watch the entire series of videos on Google Videos, just type in "Evolution Episode #" (# of course being the number of the episode), they're not always at the top of the list, but I found all of them.

Edit: While doing some source gathering, I found this interesting chart.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 19th, 2009, 9:04 am 
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Just wanted to mention that the people who do not accept Evolution in Turkey probably believe in Islamic Creationism rather than Christian Creationism that's more commonly discussed.
Turkey also recently banned Richard Dawkins' website.
(It's great that I don't live there :))

Anyway i'm no specialist in the field (what I do know comes as a by-product from the study and application of AI techniques, and the concepts based on evolution are pretty hot right now), so instead of jumping into the debate here, i'll just recommend Richard Dawkins' books if you'd like to learn more about evolution. I'm taking my sweet time reading them at the moment, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Evolution
PostPosted: August 19th, 2009, 11:09 am 
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I don't understand the premise of this thread. Is Dark Nemesis saying that he believes the theory of evolution to be incorrect? That is fine, I mean it is just a theory. But I don't see any reason why he has chosen to believe so. Does he have another explanation that I missed in a different thread, or is he just demanding an air tight explanation from people who really aren't qualified and then toying with you for fun?

Evolution is simply the best explanation we can come up with at the moment and so it is taught and studied and made use of like any other scientific theory. I don't see what the problem is.

Since it was mentioned earlier; while matter can neither be created or destroyed it can be converted back and forth between matter and energy. At no point in the big bang theory does it state that matter is created. I can only assume you don't really know what it is? Did you think the theory was matter suddenly appeared and exploded outwards? Because that is not correct.


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