1.12c Tyrant/Eidolon Balance

[Luftwaffles]

The point isn't what build you prefer since you'll undoubtedly succeed in topping most heroes at any, it's that this spell has a huge modifier in comparison to other spells that makes it powerful late game.

[Darkblade]

The point isn't what build you prefer since you'll undoubtedly succeed in topping most heroes at any, it's that this spell has a huge modifier in comparison to other spells that makes it powerful late game.

Which is what I said in the first place >.>

[GeneralFunk]

With quickly ubed on one-shot waves Wilting, I don't even bother with Spore Cloud, the build usualy involves all into Wilting with a 2:1 split between between entangle seed and fungal armor. Farming, hero target, and tanking. If wilting was reduced, or made a longer duration where the total damage comes out the same or give it a really small AoE radius, for the most part Putrid wouldn't be as fucked up. >_>

[Casval]

Maybe if Wilting did more in the center? Like Flamestrike, which is basically what the spell is.

[Darkblade]

I don't even bother with Spore Cloud

O.O Sorry I can't accept this. =P

I'd say cut Wilting's radius a bit and cut the int bonuses to 90% or so of the current ones.

[Kalrithus]

Maybe if Wilting did more in the center? Like Flamestrike, which is basically what the spell is.

Uh the only way this spell resembles flamestrike is that they are both circular AoE's, Wilting is channeled, flamestrike is not, Flamestrike does medium > small damage after the first second, Wilting's DoT component is consistent throughout the duration. You wouldn't base wilting off flamestrike and get a good result.

[DarnYak]

Wilting's DoT component is consistent throughout the duration.

Actually, it increases over the duration. That's part of the reason it was given a high modifier, it starts out low and any hero can walk out or interrupt it. Probably too high anyway, but it'll still remain on the upper end of modifiers.

DarnYak

[Casval]

Maybe if Wilting did more in the center? Like Flamestrike, which is basically what the spell is.

Uh the only way this spell resembles flamestrike is that they are both circular AoE's, Wilting is channeled, flamestrike is not, Flamestrike does medium > small damage after the first second, Wilting's DoT component is consistent throughout the duration. You wouldn't base wilting off flamestrike and get a good result.

Wilting's DoT component is consistent throughout the duration.

Actually, it increases over the duration. That's part of the reason it was given a high modifier, it starts out low and any hero can walk out or interrupt it. Probably too high anyway, but it'll still remain on the upper end of modifiers.

DarnYak

This!

And also, Flame Strike is channeling for the first second or so, just like Wilting is!

[Discombobulator]

Wilting is a bit weak imo. Everything just keeps walking out of it, and if you move your hero, it also stops. But if DarnYak make change, maybe LESS will be MORE and MORE people will use Wilting because LESS things will come out of wilting.

Amirite here guys? Back me up.

[Casval]

If his other skills weren't all so broken, I'm sure we'd see more Wilting

[Kalrithus]

Flame Strike has no channeling component, only a cast time.

[Casval]

Righto. So, what does this have to do with Wilting potentially doing more damage in the center and being bad as a result?

[Darkblade]

So it'd do more damage in the center and more damage as time progresses?

[Luftwaffles]

As much as Wilt's modifier hurts my head, it's everything Spore Cloud and Fungal Armor regen that makes my head spin.

[mianmian]

Wilt is too good atm, even with ramping damage. It could take a nerf and still be a good skill. Spore needs to be changed from sleep-stun to normal sleep. Do these changes and we can re-evaluate afterwards IMO.

Also, Seed isn't dispellable, at all. This looks like a bug and needs to be fixed asap.

[Luftwaffles]

Spore has a lot of things going for it good.

- Normal sleep would be nice.
- Reduce the % chance to miss by more (atm. it is really high).

[DarnYak]

I wanted to say, spore does a stun instead of normal sleep because otherwise there's all sorts of annoyingness with the auto-untargetting (and complete ignoring) of sleeping units, where stunned units don't change much if anything.

DarnYak

[mianmian]

How about normal stun on heroes, and sleep-stun on creeps?

[DarnYak]

I fail to see why that would be better. Did you get it reversed?

DarnYak

[Strychnyne]

If you reversed it you could do a talent similar to the Lich's bind that makes it sleepstun for all.

[mianmian]

I meant normal sleep on heroes and sleep-stun on creeps. Sorry for the confusion.

[Reaper]

Spore cloud works on towers, not sure if that was mentioned (or intended)

Also, make trees not regrow on stumps that already exist

[Lanthis]

Have been playing Eidolon a bit and was going to start a thread in regards to changes next update, but saw this was already here.

Anyways, a few points:

Infestation
- This skill is worthless unless you drop it by an undefended but manned gold mine, or you're literally holding a line in 1 spot. Otherwise 1 creep comes by and wacks the stump. Granted, if you're holding a line somewhere CONSTANTLY, then it is very useful. There are very few spots where this could possibly apply to, though. It has to be close enough to the creep path to hit them, but far enough away so it doesn't get killed. If all of the proposed nerfs go through to this skill, how about also making the stump invisible/dispellable? It's doubtful that you'll make any kills off of the bugs like you would a landmine or something, but it would add another big strategic element to playing with and against Eidolon.

- Spore Cloud
Definitely useful, especially at higher levels. How about adding in talents that take this back up to it's original un-nerfed chance to miss?

- Wilting
Useless against heroes, but great in combination with spore cloud for dropping a creep wave. Increasing the cooldown should be fine, because you won't be wilting multiple creep waves, or hitting them multiple times, as the wave will be gone by the time cooldown is up... but if damage is decreased significantly, you won't be killing anything, except heavily injured things.

- Fungal Armor
This is also another important skill for Eidolon, but the sleep proc is probably unnecessary with spore cloud... how about instead of a proc chance, when the barrier is destroyed, a little visual animation is played showing that the barrier has been dropped, then there is a % chance to proc spore cloud which increases with fungal armor's level?

- Entangling Seed
At high levels, with the talent upgrades, you can actually be fearsome to heroes. Without this skill, your chance of killing a hero with a player who's played more than 1 EOTA game is like 0, unless you double team them.

I don't know how many times I've teleported into an overwhelmed base or lane tower with Eidolon and completely dropped the entire push with spore cloud + wilting. I think that is the heart of the overpoweredness that people see, because there really are no other heroes that have the stun + %to miss + AoE damage that he does... it's like giving divine wizard the infiltrator's smoke cloud + smoke bombs. On the other hand, he's considerably less dangerous to other heroes than either of those heroes.

Thoughts?

[Dark_Nemesis]

You have some good points, though I (and many of the forum members concur) disagree with his innate. It is really powerful with the poison talent. Yes, it's nothing special without it, but its like 10 crystal, not a huge deal. Too, it is an innate, meaning it doesn't have to be great. I'm not saying it isn't though,it is. Also, try dropping it inside a cluster of trees or behind enemy lines, that way creeps wont be tempted to smack it down. The locusts have a really long range, so you can easily get away with that. This is an awesome skill, I'm sure you'll come to love it, you just have to place it right, a little tricky sometimes, but well worth the effort.

Wilting is not useless against heroes, I max spore and sprouting usually, and can easily get off a 400 dmg wilt on heroes. Very powerful skill. Again, tricky. Eidolon can be this way with all of this delayed AoEs and sleeps. Not a noob hero imo. I also usually forgo ult and armor until late game, may even skip ult completely, too vulnerable against towers, plus spores is totally insane at high levels, easily one of the best seiging spells in the game.

I don't know how many times I've teleported into an overwhelmed base or lane tower with Eidolon and completely dropped the entire push with spore cloud + wilting. I think that is the heart of the overpoweredness that people see,

I think 90% of the community, myself included, can speak for this as well. It should be noted though Yak has already nerfed Eidolon, maybe too much. We'll see, but the hammer was swung pretty hard from what I could tell (I viewed the listings of what Yak nerfed, they are posted somewhere here). Currently though, he is hugely OP, no doubt there.

As for myself, I would have to say the following:

Spores is too strong imo, as is Wilting. A slight nerf to both would be good. However, I feel entangle is rather weak, yes, the talents, but a slight buff maybe? And the ult needs something added....and the leaf graphic explosion is totally cartoonish and silly (what were you thinking Yak?). Fungal armor may be too strong, I don't know, I rarely get it past rank 2.