Some Balance issues

[Warskull]

Gargoyle:
-Overall quite overpowered
-His abilities should absolutely in no way damage buildings. He is a flying hero with a number of ways to approach with impunity. When he uses his ult, you don't get visual on him, thus he can nuke a couple of outposts from the treeline and there is no way to interrupt him.
-Abberration is also too good. +100 damage on a creep with 3000 is a lot, especially if you use it intelligently with termites. Cool idea, but tone it down. This would be ridiculously broken if someone used it with tact (or Sorrow Lord, but to a lesser degree.)
-A strength based flyer? A huge amount of nukes don't work on this guy and nets aren't that good. Nets are ok vs harpy because she has so little health. This guy just doesn't care.
-Range should be reduced to limit attacking towers from cliff edges.

Rune Knight:
-This guy can go toe to toe/beat the Sorrow Lord. The sorrow lord's nuke is doing triple the intended value. SL is pretty overpowered. If this guy can beat SL, then where does that put him?
-Rune shield doesn't really have a good counter with All pick, all dispels need to damage it and the overall health shell it gives needs to be toned down.
-The stun is a bit too long, try to shave 1-2 seconds off it
-Attack rate could probably take a hit too.
-This guy was always one of the best, but the shift to a more item/hero oriented game really pushed him over the top.
-The negative armor can get a slight reduction also.
-Honestly, every aspect on RK can afford to be nerf a bit.

Sorrow Lord:
-He speed aura is a little too fast.
-Obviously Mortal strike is screwed up. It can afford to do 1.5x what it says it should do, currently does about 3x what it says.

Termites:
-Shave a few points off the negative armor. Stuff goes down a little too fast with them.
-These could easily afford to be 400 gold and I would still use them without a second though.

Towers:
-I don't think building defensive towers fits with the current flow of the game. Make the player built towers weaker versions of the actual towers. That way they don't grind the game to a halt of people start playing defensively.

Mercenary Heroes:
-Too good for your money. Should be limited to 1 at a time. Should probably cost more. How many lives do these guys have per hire again? The current cost efficiency doesn't fit with the game's new style.

Flying Heroes in general:
Nets aren't really a very effective solution. It puts the guy on the ground for a few seconds. If you are lucky you get off one nuke. With the higher health of the gargoyle (since you can pump strength with him) that simply isn't enough. Nets need a longer range and to keep flyers down longer. Flyers need to be more vulnerable to nukes.

Flyers just have so many ways to chase, escape, and move. It is only a little too good with harpy due to her fragility. Gargoyle is just stupid good and basically can do whatever he wants with very few heroes who can answer him.

Armor:
I think the knights armor is pretty crappy in comparison to the leather armor. Leather might need a nerf and knights might need a buff. Knights just seems like a waste of a slot. Possibly toss in some damage reduction and cut the evade on leather (make it the more offensive armor option.)

[Perhaps]

I disagree somewhat to the Sorrow Liege part for Mortal Strike damage, considering quite a few caster ranged nukes do around the same damage which are ranged, I think the case all the other melee heroes should be up to that level more. And considering he isn't agility oriented his Celerity Aura while bad ass still lacks versus other heroes, its max level can be counteracted by 25 agility or something like that, even with Celerity I find it a bitch to hit Arboreal Crusader.

[Warskull]

It hits for 1200-1500 a pop at later levels. It is also on a fairly short cooldown and fairly cheap mana-cost wise. If you want it to do that level of damage it needs a greatly increased cooldown and cost. He is incredibly fast and incredibly deadly. Plus the caster heroes with very high damage nukes aren't running around with a couple thousand health to spare.

[Ion]

Abberation is hilarious with Elite Archers/Tormented Spirits (or w/e)/Arachnid creep things. I don't even know their names. I just know that with maxed Abber hits on 3 it's easy to take out most of mid at Level 25. Great when overflows start spawning and you can control them.

Good post War.

[DarkNemesis]

Armor:
I think the knights armor is pretty crappy in comparison to the leather armor. Leather might need a nerf and knights might need a buff. Knights just seems like a waste of a slot. Possibly toss in some damage reduction and cut the evade on leather (make it the more offensive armor option.)

Lol, are you serious? Leather is junk 90% of the time, except on Harpy Queen and tiny handful of others. Knights is vastly superior and you talking about two different roles here (Tanking, DPS?) so its hard to compare the two.

Gargoyle:
-Overall quite overpowered

Not really, as he is weak for a Tank, and very rarely is Abberation maxed out. At least, from what I've seen/heard.

It hits for 1200-1500 a pop at later levels.

Totally wrong here, sorry.Try 800-950 with +200 Str. Rune Knight:

-This guy can go toe to toe/beat the Sorrow Lord. The sorrow lord's nuke is doing triple the intended value. SL is pretty overpowered. If this guy can beat SL, then where does that put him?
-Rune shield doesn't really have a good counter with All pick, all dispels need to damage it and the overall health shell it gives needs to be toned down.
-The stun is a bit too long, try to shave 1-2 seconds off it
-Attack rate could probably take a hit too.
-This guy was always one of the best, but the shift to a more item/hero oriented game really pushed him over the top.
-The negative armor can get a slight reduction also.
-Honestly, every aspect on RK can afford to be nerf a bit.

Honestly, are you trying to wreck every hero in the game? Alexander is a great hero. But he has a very hard time against high dmg ones (AoEs, nukes) and you want him to be worse?

Moving on....

Oh shit, more....

Sorry, I'm gonna have to stop, can't take all the changes that will wreck EotA. You raise a few good points, but most of what your wanting to be changed crazy. My suggestion would be to play these guys for a while and discover their strengths/weaknesses, yes, they all have them!

[Leek]

Yes Rue is fast as fuck. It lets him play aggresively though. Once again I haven't seen this x3 MS thing.

RK, I disagree with pretty much everything.

No offense Warskull but it sounds like your rusty VS flying heroes and are having a hard time with them. Maybe your crying nerf? Now swoop is broken as hell atm which doesn't help but harpy I don't find to really be that big of a problem, and nets own.

Plight, yes he needs nerfs badly. His stupid hard to kill and his DPS output is too high. Other then that I don't have any problems with him.

Termites are fine. Towers are fine.

Merc heroes, the main thing here I think is that some heroes are an amazing deal for what you pay (Marks and Earth panda [Who uses Reds gold and gets 6 +5 items super quick] their survivability is ridiculous) while others are utter shite (Fire Panda).

[Dekar]

I think RK is fine as he is.

What bugged me in my last few games where I tried out normal attack build heroes, is that the Zephyr Wand always gets bought by someone else and suddenly I have 90% less attack speed bonus and also missing out free, huge blinks.

It offers too large boni to be restricted for a single player only imo.

Orb of fury gives a nice AoE damage, but you have to sacrifice a very cost efficiant orb slot for it that can grant you enough mana to compensate for the missing AoE ( or maybe I just dont like OoF ).
Attackspeed is rather hard to get in these amounts and indirectly movespeed, too, but they are very important when combined with stuns/slows and many of the damage increasing items and upgrades. And you dont even have to sacrifice a restricted slot for it.

[Warskull]

It hits for 1200-1500 a pop at later levels.

Totally wrong here, sorry.Try 800-950 with +200 Str. Rune Knight:

You misunderstand, that is what mortal strike is actually hitting for. It says less, but later on when it says it hits for 400-500 it hits for 1200-1500. Go set-up a lab game and mortal strike at level 1 on a full HP hero. It doesn't do what it says it does. It only takes 2 people to test it. When mortal strike is quartering strength heroes and taking the dryad down to 20% health in a single strike it is not doing what it says.

Termites are fine. Towers are fine.

Termites are not fine, I am just the only person who uses them. They are a steal for 200 gold. Building full strength towers wrecks the pacing of the game. In the very least a no tower building option should be in.

[Ion]

RK, I disagree with pretty much everything.

Then you are sadly wrong. RK 4 nukes, two of those nukes being AoE, a 2-4s stun, a passive that increases magic resistance, increases damage, decreases the armor of attacked units and deals strength based damage (RK is Str. based lololol!!!!)

At max level, Hazard Slash does 180 + 2.25 Str. Guess the fuck what? Bane, one of the heroes hailed here as a good counter to RK's shell (because he has suicidal Charge) does 110 + 2.75 Str with Caustic Breath.

...

Bane's main nuke on one of the Creeps 'premier' tanking/sieging units barely approaches the same damage as the RK's throwaway semi-passive (one of three AoE spells). In order for you to match that 'harmless' 70 on the RK to make both spells at least even in damage capacity, Bane needs to have 25 more Strength. The onus is on Bane to get more money and but a Str. ring or kill some heroes. I bet the RK can do it a lot better, since the RK has 3 more nukes and Rune Shell. In addition, unlike Bane, the RK's equivalent line spell also increases his magic resistance and damage and decreases the armor of whatever he attacks.

How the hell do you call that balanced. Oh, you can't because it's not. I'll go make a split thread comparing recognized Elf, Creep and UD tanks and we can explore how the RK bests them all by a long shot because he's heavily overpowered.

No offense Warskull but it sounds like your rusty VS flying heroes and are having a hard time with them. Maybe your crying nerf? Now swoop is broken as hell atm which doesn't help but harpy I don't find to really be that big of a problem, and nets own

.

Plight, yes he needs nerfs badly. His stupid hard to kill and his DPS output is too high. Other then that I don't have any problems with him.

Where in his post did he talk about Harpies. He was talking about Plight; which seconds after berating him for being 'rusty' vs. Flyers you agree with him Plight is imba. The subject of what he was talking about. =S

Plight is imbalanced because he's a Str. tank with well-rounded natural Int./Agi. growth hero who won't die unless he's stupid, you have 3 heroes or you net him. His ult can be cast outside tower range and is hilariously easy to use post Level 25 (when you have 1200+ health). At Level 3 of Abberation; just harmless Level 3, it slows a unit's attack speed by 50%, move by 20%, increases maximum health by 310 + 2.8 Str, 32 + 0.7 Int damage and 'allows the unit to use Hurl, Demolish, Bash and Hurl Boulder'. I'm not going to get into that, let's stick with the numbers.

Let's say you were to cast this three times on an Undead Necromancer with a tame 45 Strength and 25 Int. On the third time, the Necromancer now has 1898 (1308 + 590) HP, deals 175-177 damage (Magic and Normal). Even with the happy assumption the Necromancer's movement speed and attack speed are now 60% and 150% slower then before (we're being optimistic and hoping they stack), this does not account for the roughly 7x increase in attack damage and 3x increase in health (closer to 3.1x).

In addition, the Str. and Int. used do not really reflect what a Garg would be at when he gets Level 3 Abberation. And this is just Level 3 Abberation.

I've had hilarious fun with Abber and I've been touched that many pubs have shared in my enjoyment as well. Abber is, along with Ghasts and Mortal Strike, the best thing on UD right now. It's unfortunate that it's just incredibly unbalanced.

Merc heroes, the main thing here I think is that some heroes are an amazing deal for what you pay (Marks and Earth panda [Who uses Reds gold and gets 6 +5 items super quick] their survivability is ridiculous) while others are utter shite (Fire Panda).

Notice how it's the Ranged heroes having all the fun? Melee AI on Pandas makes them stupid (it's unfortunate). Before you all jizz yourself for having thought of Earth Panda, who is useful and lives considerably longer then Fire and Blackguard (usually...) consider that Earth Panda has Divine Shield, Hurl Boulder and Bash, making him significantly more likely to survive chases and escape from bases.

Sorry, I'm gonna have to stop, can't take all the changes that will wreck EotA. You raise a few good points, but most of what your wanting to be changed crazy. My suggestion would be to play these guys for a while and discover their strengths/weaknesses, yes, they all have them!

Warskull has been here since the game was being developed, he's played RK for long enough.

Honestly, are you trying to wreck every hero in the game? Alexander is a great hero. But he has a very hard time against high dmg ones (AoEs, nukes) and you want him to be worse?

RK does not have a hard time vs. 'AoEs' and 'Nukes' because he has Rune Shell and Magic Resistance. The only thing an RK has a hard time against is stupidity, which happens once a game when players think they're invincible and bum rush creeps with 3 vengeful and aware heroes waiting to net/disable him. He occasionally survives this and the players learn their lesson and then continue to dominate most of the time.

[Leek]

Ion
---->Flying Heroes in general:
Nets aren't really a very effective solution. It puts the guy on the ground for a few seconds. If you are lucky you get off one nuke. With the higher health of the gargoyle (since you can pump strength with him) that simply isn't enough. Nets need a longer range and to keep flyers down longer. Flyers need to be more vulnerable to nukes.

Flyers just have so many ways to chase, escape, and move. It is only a little too good with harpy due to her fragility. Gargoyle is just stupid good and basically can do whatever he wants with very few heroes who can answer him.

That is where he mentions Flying Heroes in general :p

Yes he comes off as rusty. Doesn't mean I can't agree that Plight is a problem.

I still disagree with everything you've said about RK, yes he is hard to kill, he is SUPPOSED to be. Maybe you guys find that too much? I dunno, I do not.

For the Earth Panda bit, yes obviously his 8 second stun (hurl boulder), the like 30 second invul are obvious reasons why he lives so long, doesn't mean you don't get more bang for your buck.

While some real problems are mentioned, overall he seems to only be criticizing STR heroes, so maybe War isn't used to tank heroes (from what I gather in Demigods, they don't really exist).

Towers disrupting the flow of the game, well yes that is the whole point. They help bolster defences, they are supposed to stop the offensive flow of the other team. You are not the only one who ever buys termites, but I still don't see them being such a big deal. In fact they help counter your tower building problem.

[Dekar]

Code: Select all

How the hell do you call that balanced. Oh, you can't because it's not. I'll go make a split thread comparing recognized Elf, Creep and UD tanks and we can explore how the RK bests them all by a long shot because he's heavily overpowered.

Bane should always win from a theoretical point because he has a 50dps damage shield that basically neagtes RK's attack, he can heal and move faster with Encouragement as well as catching up and finishing better + Runeshield dispel with Encouragement.

[Perhaps]

I don't consider Acid Sheath and Rune Shield the same. Acid Sheath, has no health but is dispellable, has a limited duration, reduces damage taken only from melee, and yes does damage. Rune Shield is non-dispellable, almost completely absorbs damage of all types and lasts until is destroyed. The main problem I have with Rune Shell is the massive stacking it will do. I consider it a preemptive heal that allows you to have the cooldown ready for replacement. I've explained this before, say a shield offers 300 health, apply that to yourself, that's +300 health, apply that to an ally as well, +600 health as a pool, +900, +1200, +1500 then an additional 300 for when a shield depletes. I think it would be a lot less problematic if allied players got a shield that had less health.

Towards Sorrow Liege's hard hit with high health comment:
And as for casters with hard hitting nukes, they don't need all that great of health because they usually have tools to keep from getting hit. I'd also like where you'd get all that damage, items? Okay, where will you get all that money? Farming? le funny! Killing players, hardly only reliable as how incompetent they are.

[Leek]

As for Rues MS doing extra damage.

As far as I can tell it because it has a MUCH higher STR modifier then mentioned. Not sure why. This doesn't seem to apply to +str given from items...

[Perhaps]

I forgot to mention the abberation thing, that +100 damage isn't as spectacular as you may think it is, since it's to a single unit you had to do it abberation multiple times on that unit to get to that point and most specifically attack speed takes a major hit with every abberation buffing. The main thing that is good about it is the high health factor and the fact it heals (which I thought was removed).

[Ion]

Bane should always win from a theoretical point because he has a 50dps damage shield that basically neagtes RK's attack, he can heal and move faster with Encouragement as well as catching up and finishing better + Runeshield dispel with Encouragement.

I wish you were right, but you are completely wrong

Bane's Acid Sheath sounds awesome. 24 + 0.3 x Int. DPS Level 6, decreases unit attacking damage by 80% for 30 seconds and 24 damage per attack. RK solved!

When Bane will have that skill (26), an RK who similarly fully levelled Imbued/Hazard Slash will deal 80-90 damage plus he will have an attack that reduces Bane's armor by 17 (Bane will have around 16-18 armor without upgrades at this point and that will mean 0% resistance or -3/-5% resistance). With all this RK will deal 17 damage on average per shot (18 with Bane having no armor). With a more reasonable, 2-3 points in Imbued/Hazard Slash by then? He deals about 10.

I like this because that's significantly less then he deals normally and Bane sounds like he could survive against RK . Except, all it takes is a dispel, and suddenly the RK goes back to dealing 70-80 (depending on his love of imbued) damage, an AoE spell that is better in every way then Caustic Breath (including magic resistance and a bonus -armor attack), mana drain and a 2-4 second stun. An average RK player could farm enough to purchase an AMS, consumable or Mana Orb to facilitate an easy pounding of Bane, if he cared enough.

I still disagree with everything you've said about RK, yes he is hard to kill, he is SUPPOSED to be. Maybe you guys find that too much? I dunno, I do not.

Then you are unfortunately still wrong, because he easily outclasses almost any hero in the game.

I forgot to mention the abberation thing, that +100 damage isn't as spectacular as you may think it is, since it's to a single unit you had to do it abberation multiple times on that unit to get to that point and most specifically attack speed takes a major hit with every abberation buffing. The main thing that is good about it is the high health factor and the fact it heals (which I thought was removed).

Unfortunately no. It is a pretty awesome factor. The speed reduction assuming stacking is 150% at max level. However, the damage increase is 700%. That means a net gain of 550% higher effective damage output. Included in this is a 300% bonus to health. That's Abberation at Level 3.

The moment overspawn starts kicking in and you randomly get units to control, Abberation becomes hilarious. You just keep the units in your base, get 4-5 Elite Archers (or UD/Orc/Creep equivalents), Abber them and go wreck havoc on a push.

You are wrong to say the main thing is the high health factor. Abberation makes units incredibly better in every way, except they're slow. We haven't even started discussing the Garg's talent that blows them up for 12% of their health with the area effect amplified by their size. At Level 3 with that talent (at a total cost of around 60 crystal) that Necromancer would've done 360 damage in an AoE of around 300-400. Hilarious.

[Dekar]

Please stop giving your favorite side in theoretical hero duels as many advantages as they need to win.

If RK gets dispel wands on lvl 24, Bane will have at least a +3 Knight Armor because Cauthic Breath is just the superior farming skill. And he can also buy AMS, genius.

[Ion]

Please stop giving your favorite side in theoretical hero duels as many advantages as they need to win.

Congrats, dispels can dispel AMS' too. Haha, I pointed out he'd have significant damage loss and I brought up the fact with a dispel it's easy. And you are woefully mistaken if you think for a second that Bane's ability to farm is anywhere NEAR RK's (you didn't say that, I'm just pointing it out). The RK's gross damage output is higher then Bane's, and the RK is far more likely to land killing blows to creeps. The RK will outfarm Bane any game unless the RK is sitting in his base doing nothing. Caustic Breath is a nice skill to pick up cash, but the RK has far more at his disposible. So it's reasonable to assume that no matter what Bane does, RK can afford to one up him, because the RK will always have more cash then Bane.

If RK gets dispel wands on lvl 24, Bane will have at least a +3 Knight Armor because Cauthic Breath is just the superior farming skill

Atm. if left alone Siphon Glyph will do more damage then Caustic. If not left alone it can hit for around 75%, and he still has Hazard Slash once every 30. Caustic Breath is superior by itself but the RK has 3 AoE nukes. He can easily afford to get a +3 Knight Armor and buy some dispels and probably some nets to boot. So no, the RK would win.

I actually went off and ran numbers with Bane vs. RK 1on1 and the RK's damage output makes Bane look like a complete pussy. Spell resistance factored in, at Level 25 the RK will be able to put out 2x gross damage to Bane, but will put 6x more effective damage over a long term since all his skills are great.

Abberation is still hilarious.