Line 'em up.
"Black people don't play Mega Man, they play with guns or some shit." - Ion
"If it takes two whole days for a giraffe, you know that giraffe is a tall one." - Wade Phillips
Fun is usually wanted, for the one individual, fuck everyone else. At least it seems that way when you want to try the Pop'n Music machine just once, but there's the same person at the machine for five hours straight.
Tehw00tz wrote:You've said yourself that you don't play online so I'll give you a little narrative of how things go down.
Some dude will join the game thinking he's the most badass thing since Patrick Swayze, he'll walk into his lane like nothing can stop him and his bad self. He'll walk straight into the creeps because that's what he wants to do. He'll get taken down by the creeps in no time whatsoever. He's dead, this game isn't worth his time and he leaves.
I've seen this happen many many many many times to noobs. They get killed by creeps and just leave on the spot.
....And?
These are freaken posts, Jamn, and I see incorrect spelling/grammar ALL the time from others, your the only one that gives a shit, so shut the hell up.
Reaper: If you seriously think America is the best country ever you are brainwashed. Fact.
DarkNemesis: Reaper, you're an idiot.
Tehw00tz wrote:You've said yourself that you don't play online so I'll give you a little narrative of how things go down.
Some dude will join the game thinking he's the most badass thing since Patrick Swayze, he'll walk into his lane like nothing can stop him and his bad self. He'll walk straight into the creeps because that's what he wants to do. He'll get taken down by the creeps in no time whatsoever. He's dead, this game isn't worth his time and he leaves.
I've seen this happen many many many many times to noobs. They get killed by creeps and just leave on the spot.
....And?
There is no "and" you dumb ass. That is the end. Noobs die and they leave, thus nobody plays. PERIOD (.)
In my opinion, the slightest death punishment should be instant respawn at your base. Teleport cooldown would prevent instant return of killed heroes to defend a lane, unless they buy the teleport scroll.
Of course this would have a negative impact on the mainbase siege, but revive time could be added for each lost outpost in return. This would also increase the importance of top/bottom outposts on storm.
edit: Candy Wars like debuff for Candle: -% max hp/mp for x seconds, maybe slower movespeed.
<EotA@Azeroth> YAKS GO MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Dekar: the ultimate ocean themed hero should buff and depend on spawn waves!
DarnYak: why is that
Dekar: WAVES
Dekar:
DarnYak: i was afraid that was the answer
Dekar wrote:edit: Candy Wars like debuff for Candle: -% max hp/mp for x seconds, maybe slower movespeed.
This brings up a good point, its not impossible to have death punishment vary based on the map. Candle could probably use a harsher one given its nature. Not sure what to say about kedge or gloom.
At first glance I thought "What a great idea" when I saw this ghost suggestion, it'd have to be modified to work though. (Your point is to make people come up with an alternative to death=wait then run back?)
*thinks*
Lets see... can't really think of anything original, but modifications to the ghost idea pop up.
1. After dying you can cast a single spell, this spell cannot damage heroes(thus it cannot be a summon either), and it cannot be an ultimate.
2. Upon death you turn into a ghost, and you have to run back to the nearest town where the resurrection process will begin. (the timer for said process should count down at half rate while in ghost form, maybe an option to resurrect close to your corpse? (WoW much?))
I don't want to see heroes in ghost form ever being able to attack their killer.
A death timer I'd like would be an initial 5-10 seconds, plus 1-2 seconds per death and half a second per level.
Capping it at 60 seconds would be good too.
This is a long fucking post (it's a tldr if I ever wrote one). Props to those who finish and don't just skip to the bottom (although imo the best suggestion is the 3rd one, for those who don't care to read EDIT** added a summary at the bottom as well for those who wanna skip the point). These ideas are for Stormwail only (need to be revised for other maps).
My thoughts on the problem with 'death' as it is...
Well, if you look at death's structure within EotA it essentially plays of the role of distributing payoffs to the opposing team (through Gold, Crystal and -1 hero on a lane to defend) and punishes the dying player for being put in that situation in the first place (by making the amount of time he spends 'dead' longer per death).
The problem with this is that it essentially gives enormous rewards to heroes who have a natural inclination to killing (Inf., Harpy) and severely punishes players who play low-health siegers and support heroes (Naga, Dryad), and less so to more healthy siegers and supporters (BP). Really if you think about it, that's not a very good way of organizing the game because you're turning players off of heroes that already have a major turn off (the fact you heal and don't kick as much ass). So it makes sense to look over possible ways of doing death differently.
I'll try and make more then one suggestion in the long-term but I'll start with one that's on my mind. I originally had a more complicated version but here's the PC revised version.
- Have it so that players can choose how they want their character to die.
But Ion LOL WTF DO YOU MEAN???
- I'm saying that right now death in EotA is absolute and there's no say on what happens when you die. True in real life, but this is a fucking video game. So why not have it so that players can buy certain items that effect how they die, etc.
Fair enough, explain
-The current way of dying rewards players who avoid dying through a timer. The less you die the less you're punished. I think that's great. In this suggestion, this way is still the 'default' way of dying.
1. Choose where you come back The argument...
-Right now players respawn at the main base, and although there's no 'formal' penalty in monetary terms, really on death players suffer -$100 because they need to teleport somewhere and walking talks for fucking ever.
-So why not somehow make it so you could choose where you want to respawn? You could do this either through a drop down list (that comes up during your respawn time) or perhaps by setting the command point of your altar into a certain base (considerably easier). It's to an extent noob friendly, and you have enough time to do it after you die or during the game (a simple hotkey and right click and back to fighting)
- This not only benefits people who need to get back into the fray, it also reduces some of the effectiveness of hero killers (though not incredibly) and at the same time (what I think is most important) suddenly makes base upgrades sound like a really fuckin' good idea EH. Suddenly, with the ability to spawn where you like you're also going to need mana; which means maybe upgrading that base instead of getting another futile upgrade to your Orb of Life (helped you so far huh...) sounds real good, doesn't it? The problems?
- The only real problem I can see here is that some people will argue it reduces the effectiveness of killing a tough-to-kill hero. You finally get that RK and he's just gonna spawn again in his newly upgraded Castle (thanks to his incredible farming abilities) right on the lane and have enough mana to GR again. Definitely a problem; however, if you think about it the likelihood the RK is going to die anyway is far lower then that poor Naga, and the frequency of supportive, lower-HP characters dying and being able to come back and fight betters this. I have a solution to this question further down in my post.
2. Death items The argument...
- The economy sucks, why not stimulate it with some items that activate on death? Normal WC3 has the Ankh, we can be a bit more creative. This would add another layer of death to the game and satisfy people who don't want to be forced into dying/reviving a certain way.
- At the moment I can think of three items, and I'll just throw out a few usual pun-names but they're not to be taken super-seriously (unless they sound useful) and are just for the sake of describing my items. They'll be Talisman of the Damned (moderate pricing), Hero's Charm (expensive pricing) and Devil's Bargain (very expensive, perhaps uses crystal instead?).
Talisman of the Damned
(a star indicates a suggestion)
- When held in the inventory, activates a trigger that will turn your character into a ghost upon death. When you die, the opponent still gets the usual cash and crystal but you're going to revive as a Ghost. Is destroyed upon use.
*- There should be no indication you're going to revive as a Ghost and should be a complete surprise (i.e normal death animation).
*- Upon revival there should be some freaky animation, possibly a cool .sfx and nearby units should be Feared (like the Sorrow Liege's spell) for a very short period of time (just to make things interesting).
*- As a Ghost you should have reduced movement speed (perhaps be banished?). You cannot attack and cannot use your ultimate. If possible, nukes should also be disabled but support spells enabled (summons perhaps are okay since they're intermediate but there are no real 'imba nuke' summons in the game).
- After x seconds (perhaps different Ghost items that increase the possible length of these seconds?) an option at your Altar will become available to revive you as normal. At this point you will dissipate in ghost form and re-appear at whatever base you specify as a normal, mana-less hero. Pros and cons
- Good for siegers and support heroes, since they can be immediately useful upon death with an easy purchase.
- Good for frequently dying players who need that extra-kick to be helpful. In addition, it helps characters more vulnerable to dying still gain experience (experience gain should be normal in Ghost form) by staying on their lanes.
- Bad for heroes who use nukes and wouldn't be much help apart from getting experience (if they're underlevelled though this might be useful). However, I don't consider this a detraction from the item; on the contrary, PK'rs shouldn't necessarily need it and therefore it's more a situational item or an item for other heroes if they want. Which is what consumables are meant to be for.
Hero's Charm
(a star indicates a suggestion)
- When held in the inventory, activates a trigger that will temporarily revive your hero for a few seconds as a Hero on the battlefield.
*- There should be no indication you're going to revive 'heroically' and should come as a surprise (again unless they check your inventory).
- Upon revival there should be should be a beam of light and your hero comes back with a really bright hero glow (wish you could have a halo...) Hero is invulnurable. Lasts for x seconds (3-6 depending on what strength you buy?). Hero should have full mana.
- Your hero can attack as normal, should have some helpful aura and can use all normal spells, but no ultimate. Hero should slower then normal though.
- After the end of the Charm's duration your hero dissipates and you wait the usual time to use your spells. Pros and cons
- Good for farmers (should be expensive), AoE heroes or heroes who are tough to kill. It rewards them for what they've done and gives them an effective 'last gasp' on a push to make sure a focus fire by three heroes or a gank doesn't fuck over the whole game for the other team.
- Good because it is not excessive; 4-6 seconds is not a ton of time and not being able to use your ultimate means GR can't fuck over the lane. However, for heroes like the Dryad, DW, Naga, etc. an extra nuke, support buff or what have can make all the difference.
- Bad given that the price is more expensive then becoming a Ghost, and that it's very situational. If you get ganked and you're stuck in the middle of a lane not near the push but too slow to get there then that suckssss. But if you just happened to be killed by a way ward nuke, a GR you can't escape cause the other guy bought nets, etc. and the push is still there, the chance to throw out once last AoE spell or get a few hits on a lucky kill is great.
Devil's Bargain
- Should be more expensive then the others but somewhat reasonable ee.
- Devil's Bargain revives you at least to 3/4s of your health immediately after you die.
- After dying a Portal should open and the hero pops out of it.
- There is no guarantee on the last third however and no guarantee on how much mana you come with. In addition, upon revival there's a random chance (perhaps increased if you've used the item before or haven't died yet) that you'll x amount of gold and y amount of crystal.
- There's also a chance you get a short (1-2 second) invulnurability upon revival or a few demons (Infernals, etc.) accompany you. Pros and cons
- Good you get what you ask for; an instant revive where you died, and there's a chance you get a small invulnurability allowing you to get back into position or even a few demon spawn to help you out.
- Good because it rewards you for the amount payed.
- Bad because there's no guarantee on what you get. You're dealing with the Devil here, right? ; ) (ugh terrible theme/pun so excuse me...) The point is there's no guaranteed gains and it's a real gamble; you could revive with only 3/4s of your health and no mana, lose a fair bit of extra gold and maybe even a tiny bit of crystal. Or you could come in full everything with demon spawn and 2 second invulnurability to boot. The point is it's unpredictable and expensive, favoring people really who are just lucky and happen to have a lot of money (that clearly they could spend elsewhere). But sometimes all it takes is a bit of luck...
3. Weighted kill bonus
- Have supply fit the demand. A hero who kills a Naga that's died 8 times already and is below him by 10 levels shouldn't get the same gold as if he's killed the hitherto invincible RK. Yak already mentioned it, but I think at the very least weighted bounties would make the game more fair.
- Determers for gold earned on kill could be time between last x deaths, the amount of units killed so far in the game, buildings destroyed, hero kills, etc. This would make it so that hero killers are always seeing out the strongest and toughest heroes in the game. This makes the PK'rs job more interesting and makes playing them a blast, it decays the value of killing crappy heroes over and over (if you're only going to get 50 gold out of it why not wait and try and destroy the RK/Ember AI who's lived the whole game and wrecked shit).
- In addition, an unrelated thing on death but I think killing a tower should net you some gold. This would encourage siegers to do their job right and pick up a fair bit of cash (that they might not be able to net it as farmers would). There's no need to add the ability to attack towers like in DotA however since in EotA you can repair towers.
-In addition to the weighted kill bonus if a hero dies a LOT in a short period of time, perhaps the AI should subsidize them with an item/consumable to help them out. This would have to be specifically determined by Yak, but if a hero gets killed say twice in a minute or something perhaps a happy Orb of Life could pop up in their altar. If a hero is underlevelled maybe a tome, etc. This would give crappy players the opportunity to improve themselves in the game rather then become a liability and permits 'comebacks' from players a lot more. At the same time it does not reward people who die sparsely but rather people who die a lot in a short period of time. Perhaps after a certain Level as well (40?) these bonuses could be capp'd off, when the game needs to get on and finished.
These are just a few ideas. Keep that in mind when commenting. Here's my summary:
- I suggested adding in the ability to choose where you want to respawn on death (you use the command point with your altar and aim it a base, and if it's within the relative vicinity of that base you respawn there) which would give players the opportunity to respawn closer to where they need. Also would increase the value of Town Halls.
- I suggested making 'death items' (perhaps they should be consumables?) that you keep in your inventory (or consume...) that will essentially revive you in different ways upon death. The ones I suggested were a Ghost item, one that revives you for a short period of time to use normal spells and one that revives you randomly with 3/4-full health (maybe it should be half?) and same goes for mana (in addition it may steal some of your gold and crystal...) This just gives players some choice, with monetary restrictions, on ways in which they can be useful after dying.
- I lastly suggested weighted hero killing bounties and the like, and also suggested towers should give gold on death.
More consumable ideas is great, I really only like my ghost and devil one (hero one is meh). Comments are welcome. Not all of my ideas are useful so remember that (they're ideas, not demands...) Sorry for the long read.
**EDIT I didn't mention timers, but for Stormwail they should be generally reduced and cap'd at perhaps 30 seconds (that's a LONG time) and instead of being based on number of times dead, should also factor in the length between deaths (so if you die in quick succession then go a long time without dying, timer should be reduced).
**EDIT Ugh, in addition I would suggest this being a "Stormwail" only suggestion. Death should be different on different maps and I don't want Ghosts all over the place on Candleburg. So these are Stormwail only ideas.
Too busy atm to make a long reply,but one thing stood out.
In addition to the weighted kill bonus if a hero dies a LOT in a short period of time, perhaps the AI should subsidize them with an item/consumable to help them out.
This gave me a possible idea of not items (that woudl be bad, and give a permanent reward, and sort of encourages dying), but instead something like defenders that spawn and give the hero some minor protection. They could go away after a time, or just not respawn on next death (unless you die too soon). To justify it, there could be some small global setback (like spawning delays or such)
If basically everyone is ok with the current death system, why change it? I can understand maybe a slight modification to suite newcomers/noobs in such. But a complete revamp isn't necessary, and would cause more distaste down the road. Again, my 2 cents.
Reaper: If you seriously think America is the best country ever you are brainwashed. Fact.
DarkNemesis: Reaper, you're an idiot.
If gold for building kills is awarded, it should be given to the last hero dealing damage to it in the 5 seconds before the destruction.
I dont exactly like the altar rally point revive system, but it should be automatically set to the outpost closest to your death location when you die, if you havent set the waypoint yourself. That way noobs would automatically revive in "their" lane.
Hmm, but that wouldnt work if they need to regenerate mana first. So propably only pick T2/3 outposts what would still cut down move time.
<EotA@Azeroth> YAKS GO MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Dekar: the ultimate ocean themed hero should buff and depend on spawn waves!
DarnYak: why is that
Dekar: WAVES
Dekar:
DarnYak: i was afraid that was the answer
Reaper wrote:People that know how to play are typically fine with the death system, that isn't everyone
The changes would be to address people who run into a mob and die, then ragequit
I see either the ghost thing or walking back to a base working against that tendency without really disrupting anything else
I did say "basically" which isn't the same, but eh.
So if your dumb don't stay with teammates/wander, we are gonna reward that by giving a ghost thingy that can do the same stuff? Great concept, I love it...
If thats the case, this is one of the most retarded ideas I've seen. Deaths in EotA are quite easy on noobs. Go and play a clan Dota, they are a mean as shit over there,
and have zero tolerance for newcomers.
Something that would prevent repeated pubsmashes for noobs would be ok, but rewarding them for bad play is stupid, sorry.
Reaper: If you seriously think America is the best country ever you are brainwashed. Fact.
DarkNemesis: Reaper, you're an idiot.
If gold for building kills is awarded, it should be given to the last hero dealing damage to it in the 5 seconds before the destruction.
Agreed, I mean tbh if it were possible to distribute most gold in this way that'd be great. I just think if you blow up a tower you should net some $$$moniez but this is a smart way of doing it.
I dont exactly like the altar rally point revive system, but it should be automatically set to the outpost closest to your death location when you die, if you havent set the waypoint yourself. That way noobs would automatically revive in "their" lane.
I don't know about this. The point with the rally point system is that you just have the option of choosing a place to revive, you're not forced to revive. It would be kind of annoying if I really needed mana to just spawn at an outpost. Perhaps instead of making it all simple, you could build little mini altars or something at bases (or any area really...) with workers for a small cost of gold (perhaps like Gens? or even just use a Gen O_O). That would def be interesting.
I also just remembered about regen gens, which are cheaper and faster and might make upgrades somewhat obsolete, lol. So my motivation fails, but maybe more gens!
If thats the case, this is one of the most retarded ideas I've seen. Deaths in EotA are quite easy on noobs. Go and play a clan Dota, they are a mean as shit over there,
and have zero tolerance for newcomers.
Dekar had similar woes about changing death. The changes that I'm suggesting really are up to people to choose. It's not forced on anyone and people can decide whether or not they wanna become a Ghost, etc. I think that's beneficial, because it adds another layer of strategy. In terms of putting it out for noobs, I think there's a big overgeneralization of the feeder who dies then ragequits. If any of the things I've suggested are implemented or inspire some other implementation really they just benefit the curious people (us).
Btw props to you all for reading any of it that thing, that's fucking massive. I would've skipped down to the end and just read the summary lol.
There will always be people who quit after their first death, they are retards and you can't really make them happy.
Players need to be taken out of the equation for a bit after they die. Otherwise if you kill them, they will just bounce right back with full health/mana. Death needs to sting enough to discourage people dying pointlessly.
However, I think the maximum down times go too high in EotA. A level 30 character can easily get a full minute down. A player getting really hammered/targeted can go down for an exceedingly long time.
I think a good system would be one where death penalty is based on how long the game has been going on. It starts light and goes up. So early game death may only put you down for 5 seconds, while late games death will be 20-30 seconds.
Then give the player a buy out option. They can expend gold, crystals, or take a freebie (say 1-2 per game) to revive instantly. Cost of the buyouts can go up with level. Say 1 crystal per level, 50 gold per level.
The highest cap should be in the 20-30 second range. The possible minute+ caps are too high.
