Energy & Generators

[DarnYak]

So, as part of thinking about 1.12e, i'm trying to review most aspects of the map. Obviously there are these little things called generators that few people seem to use, except for crystal (if even that).

So the question now is, scrap the whole system and replace it, or try and fix it?

If fix it, what direction should be taken? One option i'm considering is combining generators, to make them both stronger and a bit more tactical to make use of. For instance, crystsal and devestation (I think? the attack one) would be merged so it'll produce crystal based on kills it gets. Defense and the moonwell one would likely get merged. Some would be modified to be of more use in the field (perhaps siege and bomb merged, for instance).

Similar to the above suggestion, is the question of the whole "generator" notion should be revoked. Part of the idea behind gens was to permit them to morph into other kinds based on needs (plus when you're energy falls below), but that currently doesn't seem used, nor do i see it becoming used. So i see little reason not to seperate them into actual buildings instead of the generator model.

The whole notion of acquiring energy may be changed as well. Perhaps it would be best changed to something like "strategic resources", and you get something like 1 per hero level.

Or, of course, the entire system can be scrapped as bloat.

Please post any thoughts you may have on this.

DarnYak

[DarkNemesis]

I really like this idea Yak, and no, its not because your the game creator. But whatever.

For the most part, I think crystal is too hard to come by, at least for most heroes, hero-killers being the exception. Generators cost too much to be truly effective, and are too reliant upon Obelisks. Basically, those who own the most win, I hate that kind of strategy, why? because then that becomes the soul focus, and derails from the original intent. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't EotA still a hero-oriented game? Of course they're is still alot more emphasis on troops and teamwork then, say, DotA, but still, in regards to that game, EotA imo is still mainly about the heroes. Plus, if your only putting money, time, and effort into obelisks and heroes, then hiring and supporting sieges becomes second hand.

I think, like you stated, that rewarding crystal based on hero lvl would be a much better idea, then it doesn't punish the good players. Some of the other suggestions submitted by the community have tried to do this, namely in regards to hero kills. We really don't need to socialize EotA, so whatever you do, reward good play, and don't punish bad, but don't reward it either. This way it won't scare away noobs.

My thoughts:

Merge Generators, as you said, to be stronger and more effective.
Change the way energy is acquired. I.E. hero lvl. But still have a side-effect bonus, maybe Obelisks, to reward good play but still keep it fair.

Off topic: In regards to further items, should they ever appear in EotA, would be to make a shop dedicated to crystal-based ones, in other words, they cost mainly crystal instead of gold. Just a thought.

[Dekar]

(Ab)using gens is just overkill for most games, thus I dont use them. You get more exp and have less things to care about.

With the recent hp buff they may be a bit more useful out in the wild, but that only affects siege gens. Heal gens are not that useful because there are other ways to regenerate all over the maps, be it fountains, outposts or shops if you really need to. Magic gens are fun, but have such a low mana regeneration. Siege gens need 8 energy, what means that you need a fourth obelisk for a second one. While the last two points are obviously good for balance, they are not really motivating me personally to use them.

They are fine, mostly good balanced but thus not needed to be used. They shouldnt get buffed too much, because then the only way to counter them is using them yourself.

[DarnYak]

They shouldnt get buffed too much, because then the only way to counter them is using them yourself.

I don't follow, what gens do you have to counter with other gens?

DarnYak

[Dekar]

All ofc.

No what I mean is, you just win because youre using gens and the other team not. Like old spawn tower buying. I see them more as an optional thing like Arthas, so they shouldnt not be THAT game influencing. Hard to find satisfing numbers for an example, so I will just say: Merge them to make them more attractive, but dont buff the numbers if you want to bring them into play more.

[DarnYak]

No what I mean is, you just win because youre using gens and the other team not.

Is this actually true though? And again, WHICH gens?

DarnYak

[DarkNemesis]

All ofc.

No what I mean is, you just win because youre using gens and the other team not. Like old spawn tower buying. I see them more as an optional thing like Arthas, so they shouldnt not be THAT game influencing. Hard to find satisfing numbers for an example, so I will just say: Merge them to make them more attractive, but dont buff the numbers if you want to bring them into play more.

This makes sense, for the most part. The only problem I might see here is that gens could fall back to their current status: Not worth my damn time or effort.

You can make gens useful and effective without tying a "I win cuz I use generators" slogan, just erase the option of winning by using them. In fact, I think that should be removed permanently, and instead have a base-kill, based-hold emphasis. Winning by simply building masses of spawn towers and using hoards of generators is not only noobish imo, but it again, drives away from the original intent of EotA.

Bottom line: Generators, Crystal should be used to encourage the likelihood of winning, but not winning itself. As Dekar put it, lets, dear God, not fall back to the old style EotA when it come to gens and spawn towers.

[Dekar]

I dont think there is a gen use = win situation in the current version.

Siege gens are propably the only ones really good for breaking stalemates, as in heavily defended outposts. But I haven't seen any gens other than crystal around since I made 5 magic gens on kedge and acted like a captain of a huge battleship while flooding the lane with shockwaves. xD

I think you could do crazy stuff with gens if you just have a good team and try it, like tripple siege gen between west rock/top outpost + 2 anti hero gens and 1 or 2 heroes guarding it + 1 scout plane. No problem to do with even only 2 obs and rather hard to discover bevore it strikes because its one terrain level higher than the outposts unless there is some lucky flying enemy around.

But there are just no enemys where you need to do that! Termites and Kaboom goblins are propably the better way if you want to take down single towers fast to weaken a defense.

[Perhaps]

Generators usually have few uses. One thing that'd help them be a little better, is if they could be broke down for gold for like half the building price.

Generators usually are good for defending Obelisks, like getting execution generators to ward off pesky heroes.

Siege generator is probably one of the best of them. One thing you can do, is you can get a Zepplin, load up a worker(s), then land on a flat unreachable surface at their main base. The right side is the upper area, by the waterfall. And on the left side, is the left side of the base up high on the cliff. You can use the workers to chop down the trees, build a tower, (since it's their main, it'll be worth it), Siege Generator, and whatever else you can fit up there. The ultimate backdooring. >_>

One thing that'd make generators a bit more appealing and would help them work on maps is give all players default energy, and could even spend crystals to up that amount. While also, so it's not completely like typical massing maps, where you spend economy to earn economy, crystal generator could have a limit of only one and up to level 3.

[Tehw00tz]

I for one use bomb generators at every chance I have.

[Elreth]

Actually with the decreased cost, I am pretty happy with generators. Although you are right that I very rarely switch the type of generator unless I was waiting for the generator I really wanted to be unlocked through time or if the lane it was on is defeated in the case of siege/moonwell(then I switch it to arcane and hope I have a need for it).

Sometimes I switch siege to anti-hero gens if a hero shows up though, and that is nice. I think they are pretty good as is because there are benefits to not using them such that people who either dislike them or are unaware of them are not at a disadavantage. Granted, they probably are not as good at countering them but it is not hard to figure out "destroy vulnerable building."

The best counter to gens is just swarm swarm swarm until their investment is ruined. Preferably as soon as possible.

[DarnYak]

Winning by simply building masses of spawn towers and using hoards of generators is not only noobish imo, but it again, drives away from the original intent of EotA.

EotA's original intent was to be an AoS with heavy emphasis on overall game strategy. Spamming spawn towers or gens is, no question, noobish. However, using them in the right place at the right time isn't, and should be a very big deal. Gens are a strategic resource and shoudln't be getting ignored in the way they are.

The more I think about this idea, the more i'm starting to lean towards shifting energy to be based (almost?) entirely off hero level. It makes it even across all maps, it means you're strategic resources increase as the game goes on, and it takes care of issues where you're energy goes down and disables gens.

DarnYak

[Ion]

Structural and attack gens I see used occasionally, mostly to feed you a bit of gold so you can buy some items and then you upgrade them to moonwell/execution gens. Those two are fantastic. Siege gens are bearable and can be pretty good if you put 3-4 down real quick and hold a lane. Unfortunately, aside from maybe the occasional fucktard (i.e me) who uses a bomb gen for kicks and giggles, the other gens are marginal at best (I can't even remember if there were more or if it's just arcane).

Removing the ties between energy and gen placement isn't a bad idea, but you'd have to test it first. There'd be an adaptation period for most people. You might also want to look at the bonus EXP you get for not using gens, since for those who know about it generally avoid a gen unless they desperately need a health stuck on a lane (which seems to be your intent so I suppose it's good). Merging some gens and buffing their usage (i.e giving you crystal) would definitely be helpful.