1.12b Balance

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Dekar · #1 Post by **Dekar** » January 24th, 2009, 6:49 pm

Voodoo Spirits talent:
Up to 100% chance to deal ?10? damage everytime mass regeneration is dispelled.
Could need a damage buff.

Tyranns ultimate seems to be far better than Grandrune, it not only deals a high amount of damage but can also disable 2 of 3 spread out towers for a rather long time.

edit: eidolon shield outheals howl + hamstring fenny early game, and it propably wont look very different with other heroes/skills.

tanks need upgrade to hit air :[

rue is overpowered! cannot be killed with str stuff !!1111oneone and deals zomg damage

Leek · #2 Post by **Leek** » January 24th, 2009, 8:49 pm

Stumps needs HP cut in half.
Some people say Eidolon shield needs a nerf (I disagree but w/e)
Tyrant needs less str/lvl

UD Dragons (frostwyrms?) still follow old messed up middle pathing.

#3 Post by **DarnYak** » January 25th, 2009, 12:24 am

Tyrant's ult should be doing significatly less damage then Grand Rune.

The hell is the comment about Rue?

DarnYak

Dekar · #4 Post by **Dekar** » January 25th, 2009, 8:44 am

Rues is propably just a bit over Gravel due to his speed aura, I need more games for comparison.

Leek · #5 Post by **Leek** » January 25th, 2009, 10:50 am

Dek is sore cause me and Reb owned him and some others 4v2 (discounting our two comps, their 3 mercs and our 1 merc).

I was Rue and with a bunch of str rings I had something like 4.6k HP in the low 50s. MS did 600~ damage, they got owned hard because tanks < drakes.

Me and Siege are thinking of making a big balance bible to help out since the balance has gotten a little uneven.

With level 4 Deep Freeze (Tyrant Ult) with +5 Orb of Skill and +0 Sun Talisman I was doing under 1k damage with my Ult. So ya, it does a lot less damage then GR. However it had a 10 second stun attached and casted in under 4 seconds.

Personally I would hold off on most balancing of the new heroes (aside from stump HP, it needs to be somewhere in the 50-75% range of what it is now) because people just haven't had enough time learn counter tricks. They probably are a little imbalanced, but not near as much as people are saying (Pool and Sparda refusing to play 1.12b).

Dekar · #6 Post by **Dekar** » January 25th, 2009, 11:32 am

AFAIK Rue is called imba for multiple versions now, without any change to him. Actually he got buffed in bascially every version. But these were for his guardians and the bastion, not the more problematic skill combination of a strong nuke with permanent fast speed.

Rue is just a massive hp tank with a very good nuke and movement speed that is faster than that of everyone else. His downside is, that hes bad at nuking creeps, but he can compensate for that with the damage aura. Or do I have a wrong impression somewhere?
Would Gravel be significantly stronger if he would move faster than everyone? I think so.
Speed on weak heroes like Martyr is less problematic because they cannot chase forever without getting killed. Detected Inf wont be able to chase on for very long because she is rather fragile.
Should there ever be consent that he is indeed overpowered, because of the speed, maybe the auras could be made not affecting himself.

I think Backfire could need a little damage buff, I used it till lvl 3 with no significant effect and then stopped skilling it in favor of Kindle Faith.
Does the damage from multiple enemy casts stack? It should.

Idea for a new system for this skill: Make it deal a low amount of damage all the time, with the damage increasing and duration extending everytime the target casts. Reduce the cast range a bit then.

Leek · #7 Post by **Leek** » January 25th, 2009, 12:10 pm

I like that backfire idea because as it is its worthless (it has been since it was nerfed because of the syphon glyph combo)

For Rue the main thing is that if you take the auras from affecting him, your only going to use the damage aura, as it is I only use speed+damage. The biggest thing about Rue's speed is that it just movement speed, if a hero has a blink or any other movement imparing/type of movement, Rue won't catch him, his speed is good for running down flee'ing heroes.

As for his nuke, with over 50+ extra strenght around level 53 or so I was doing 600 damage, only a major threat to low HP heroes. I honestly don't find that to be that *broken* of a nuke. Lots of other heroes can do more with equal upgrades.

You are right that I thought Rue was broken when he first came out though, I think its the combonation of MS+Crown that does it, because any other skill build isn't anywhere near as deadly or powerfull. I don't know how to fix that though.

#8 Post by **Tehw00tz** » January 25th, 2009, 12:49 pm

Fel Horde creeps need to be nerfed badly.

DarkNemesis · #9 Post by **DarkNemesis** » January 25th, 2009, 2:29 pm

Does anyone else here think Tyrant is a completely superior version of Bane? he use to be the king of tanking (minus Rue and possibly Alexander), but now it seems Tyrant has replaced him altogether. I honestly don't know what to think about the new heroes balance issues, if any at all. Eidolon is pretty much fine how he is, maybe a slight nuke to his heal-shield thing and a buff to treant ult HP (those dies so fast to towers, it nuts).

Yes, Tehwootz is right, the freaken Orcs hit for like 44! Nuts. (oh, Yak, how about giving them all choas dmg? You know, like the Fel Orcs in the W3 campains? I think that fit nicely!)

Back Fire is pretty useless, need a big buff. Still, even with it Priest is so support-based it would seem bad to spend points on an upgraded backfire, then, say, kindle or phoenix. His ult could use a buff too! not too strong imo.

Leek · #10 Post by **Leek** » January 25th, 2009, 3:03 pm

Best Tyrant spec is max Cataclysm, and Ult when possible, rest into Icy Shell with a couple points into the mana freeze skill.

Getting Strength with his is useless, his only spell that is based of strength is shatter, which sucks anyway.

Max Int and Agi, +5 Orb of Skill is the best item for him in the game. After that I usually just grab the Talisman of the Sun.

DarkNemesis · #11 Post by **DarkNemesis** » January 25th, 2009, 3:42 pm

Leek wrote:Best Tyrant spec is max Cataclysm, and Ult when possible, rest into Icy Shell with a couple points into the mana freeze skill.

Getting Strength with his is useless, his only spell that is based of strength is shatter, which sucks anyway.

Max Int and Agi, +5 Orb of Skill is the best item for him in the game. After that I usually just grab the Talisman of the Sun.

Is the added Agi for moving quicker, cuase hes slower than shit? or does he have a Agi-based skill(s) can't remember.

DarkNemesis · #12 Post by **DarkNemesis** » January 25th, 2009, 3:57 pm

--double post

Btw, Leek, Cataclysm is str-based. Just thought I'd let you know, but whatever.

Leek · #13 Post by **Leek** » January 25th, 2009, 6:41 pm

Ah I didn't notice that, by bad, I thought it was Int like Deep Freeze.

The cast time of Deep Freeze is agi based, so with a Orb of Skill you can get it to under 4 second cast time.

DarkNemesis · #14 Post by **DarkNemesis** » January 25th, 2009, 7:40 pm

Leek wrote:Ah I didn't notice that, by bad, I thought it was Int like Deep Freeze.

The cast time of Deep Freeze is agi based, so with a Orb of Skill you can get it to under 4 second cast time.

That's cool, I'll have to try it.

#15 Post by **DarnYak** » January 27th, 2009, 6:05 pm

1.12c will be tomorrow (Wednesday), so if you have any feedback you want me to consider before the next version, please do it asap. 1.12d will probably be a while.

DarnYak

DarkNemesis · #16 Post by **DarkNemesis** » January 27th, 2009, 6:09 pm

Turing down the dmg and HP of the Fel Horde, mainly the Grunts. Really strong.

How about chaos dmg for the Fel Horde creeps?

Like in the campaigns. Just a thought.

So 1.12d is going to be long because your planning to make more heroes, right?

#17 Post by **DarnYak** » January 27th, 2009, 6:12 pm

I should also mention i haven't had any time to actually play 1.12b, nor will i before c comes out.

I'll take another look at fel orc basic spawns..my tests before release were giving me weird results (something to the extent that they may have too much health but too low of damage). No chaos damage, unless specific units demand it (I'm somewhat reserving chaos damage anyway, i might need to create a new damage class using it)

1.12d isn't likely to include new heroes, just focused on the Kedge overhaul. Who knows, I might include a Kedge themed hero to celebrate...

DarnYak

DarkNemesis · #18 Post by **DarkNemesis** » January 27th, 2009, 6:24 pm

DarnYak wrote:I should also mention i haven't had any time to actually play 1.12b, nor will i before c comes out.

I'll take another look at fel orc basic spawns..my tests before release were giving me weird results (something to the extent that they may have too much health but too low of damage). No chaos damage, unless specific units demand it (I'm somewhat reserving chaos damage anyway, i might need to create a new damage class using it)

1.12d isn't likely to include new heroes, just focused on the Kedge overhaul. Who knows, I might include a Kedge themed hero to celebrate...

DarnYak

Ok, fair enough.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Naga or Mur'gal hero, something for the creep side. But that's only assuming your going to add one the first place.

jamn455 · #19 Post by **jamn455** » January 27th, 2009, 6:34 pm

What is a Mur'gal?

Poolman756 · #20 Post by **Poolman756** » January 27th, 2009, 6:34 pm

jamn455 wrote:What is a Mur'gal?

I believe a Mur'gal is an old old wooden ship used in the Civil War era.

DarkNemesis · #21 Post by **DarkNemesis** » January 27th, 2009, 6:41 pm

jamn455 wrote:What is a Mur'gal?

Sometimes they're also referred to Murloc's. From the campaigns.

jamn455 · #22 Post by **jamn455** » January 27th, 2009, 7:31 pm

I am pretty sure everyone refers to them as Murlocs.

DarkNemesis · #23 Post by **DarkNemesis** » January 27th, 2009, 7:39 pm

jamn455 wrote:I am pretty sure everyone refers to them as Murlocs.

The game (Campaigns) also refer to them as Mur'gals. Play them if you don't believe me. I also recently have been playing the Naga campaign. Mur'gal could also refer to a certain class of Murlocs, who knows. I only know I've seen both terms used.

#24 Post by **BustroQuick** » January 27th, 2009, 7:40 pm

I think it's mur'gul.

#25 Post by **DarnYak** » January 27th, 2009, 8:38 pm

Mur'gul is a type of murloc in wc3, doesn't seem to exist in WoW that i've seen. It doesn't matter, stop clogging this thread with worthless shit.

Looking at spawns again... (by the way, candleburg is a great way to check basic spawn balance if you dont have any heroes join in). From what i'm seeing, the size of grunts is throwing a lot of things off. The need to be large, to block equal areas as 4 foot/4 ghouls/3 furblogs since only 2 grunts spawn. But as a result, they always end up in the back of the pack (i'm wondering if this is happening for knights/abombs/bears too), and thus the casters/ranged end up tanking a few ghouls, resulting in their early deaths. Plus once a few ranged build up, its much harder for grunts to get up front.

I'll probably be spreading stats around a bit more evenly so they all have a bit more capacity to tank then their counterparts. By the way, the current health totals/damage are roughly equal to the other races (a bit less, actually), so don't be freaked out that the numbers are just higher by default, since the spawn numbers are different.

DarnYak

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