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 Post subject: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 7th, 2009, 1:51 pm 
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A push towards standardization or dangerous subsidizing?!

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 7th, 2009, 2:07 pm 
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I'm rather moderate on the issue. Yes, it's a government-controlled, Obama nation policy, but it is creating and/or saving jobs. I read the other day that Ford had a healthy increase in sales from the program, as did several other oversees competitors.

And my parents are considering trading in our old mini van for a Prius, which means I may be getting to drive my mom's 3 year old Civic hybrid! Yea! :P

Overall, I think it ought to go until the economy either recovers or until Obama totally wreaks it (hopefully not). After that, it needs to be suspended, taxpayers don't need to be coughing up billions for a program that is environmentally-charged and has already served it's main purpose. It's bad enough with Obama's new emissions policy. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 7th, 2009, 2:09 pm 
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Stupid. The money's not coming out of nowhere, most of the vehicles bought are foreign, and all its going to do is have a spike in sales now but followed by 6+ months of nobody buying cars because everyone who was going to already did.

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 7th, 2009, 2:12 pm 
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What about the job savings/hirings? You can't ignore those.

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 7th, 2009, 2:26 pm 
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What job/savings hirings? From cars being made? Most of those are foreign. Dealerships? They mgiht be fine for a month but they'll be screwed for a while after when car sales plummet. Used car sellers? Oh wait, they can't be resold. Car dismantlers? Oh wait, the engines must be destroyed, making all the parts worthless.

I suppose the 78 people it took to design the 4 forms dealships must fill out for each car had their jobs saved (yes, it took 78 people somethin glike 150,000 man hours), as well as the additional government positions to process said forms...

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 7th, 2009, 2:37 pm 
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Dark_Nemesis wrote:
I read the other day that Ford had a healthy increase in sales from the program, as did several other oversees competitors.

I haven't sold anything!
Dark_Nemesis wrote:
Overall, I think it ought to go until the economy either recovers or until Obama totally wreaks it (hopefully not).

Can you please inform me which definition of "wreak" you're using here?
1. To inflict (vengeance or punishment) upon a person.
2. To express or gratify (anger, malevolence, or resentment); vent.
3. To bring about; cause.
4. Archaic. To take vengeance for; avenge.

@Darnyak's first comment
I can't see how giving the economy a temporary boost will hurt. The biggest problem with a depression, in my opinion, is that it's self-sustaining: Less money = less spending = pay cuts and job cuts = less money. Anything done to break the cycle is probably a good idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 7th, 2009, 2:41 pm 
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can't see how giving the economy a temporary boost will hurt.

Its called a bubble. An artifical boost followed by it popping and then nothing for quite a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 7th, 2009, 3:01 pm 
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Well, alright then, can someone tell me the proven methods for ending a depression? Oh, that's right, World War II ended the last Great Depression. Who's for World War III?! I'm ready!
I don't care what Obama does, kudos to him for trying.
You did not address my reason for believing it was a good idea. I did not argue that it would not be a temporary spike followed by a lull.
Ford Prefect wrote:
The biggest problem with a depression, in my opinion, is that it's self-sustaining: Less money = less spending = pay cuts and job cuts = less money. Anything done to break the cycle is probably a good idea.

The thing that will end it is a change in consumer attitude, not a specific government program. The programs will simply inspire that change in attitude... hopefully.

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 7th, 2009, 3:08 pm 
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Can you please inform me which definition of "wreak" you're using here?
1. To inflict (vengeance or punishment) upon a person.
2. To express or gratify (anger, malevolence, or resentment); vent.
3. To bring about; cause.
4. Archaic. To take vengeance for; avenge.


If you've been keeping up with the news and what he is doing, then what I said doesn't need further explanation?

1, 2, and 3 are probably the most likely, with each having their own merits. 1, Obama is inflicting punishment upon success, I.E the bailouts. He's punishing the CEO's for being successful (firing them, taking away their pensions, etc), while giving money (taxpayer) to company's that are run by a bunch of mobbing union workers: Chrysler, GM. 2 he, like alot of Americans is upset with the economy and certain people gaining funds while others are loosing them. But where he goes wrong is that he relies on feelings rather than common sense to make tough choices. 3, he is bringing out a nearly-quadrupled deficit just within 6 moths in office. Bush acquired roughly a fourth of this over 8 years, and his debt, at least, went heavily to the military, and perfectly constitutional act. Thus, he is causing a massive debt that we will be paying for for years and years to come. This has sonic effects, from education (sending your kids to College), to everyday stuff like buying tomatoes at Safeway or filling up at the station, to arguably the most devious of all: our slow decent into Socialism and the stealing of our personal rights and freedoms. This, if not corrected, could destroy the America that out forefathers so brilliantly foresaw.

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Well, alright then, can someone tell me the proven methods for ending a depression? Oh, that's right, World War II ended the last Great Depression. Who's for World War III?! I'm ready!
I don't care what Obama does, kudos to him for trying.
You did not address my reason for believing it was a good idea. I did not argue that it would not be a temporary spike followed by a lull.


So.......you don't care that he is slowly taking away our rights? You don't care that he has already run up a massive debt? You don't care that he has done jack shit to stop N. Korea and Iran from acquiring nukes? You don't care that he is very, very critical of capitalism and the idea that you get to keep what you make? You don't care that he attended a balatenly anti-american church for 20+ years and been friends with terrorists? You don't care that he himself (and his wife) have made anti-american remarks and refused to bear our flag on this jacket? (he's president of this country!).

Based upon that, I could say kodos to Muhammad for trying to take over the world and wipe out the jews.

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 7th, 2009, 3:15 pm 
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I was pointing out your misuse of the word "wreak." The word you wanted was "wreck."
Now I have to ask why you're using the word "sonic." What the hell does buying tomatoes have to do with sound?

In case you misinterpreted my sarcasm, I just pointed out that the only known method of ending a depression is a world war, which is probably not the best way to do it. So you're comparing what I said to giving kudos to Muhammad for starting World War II, which I just finished saying wasn't the way to go about it?

Please provide me to news links or other credible reference sources for all the claims you just made about Obama, other than the debt.

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 7th, 2009, 3:16 pm 
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If this topic is about what I think it is, then we have it already in Germany.

People cheat/abuse the system by not actually destroying the old cars, but giving out letters stating that they did it.
They dont only buy german cars.

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 7th, 2009, 3:22 pm 
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The thing that will end it is a change in consumer attitude, not a specific government program. The programs will simply inspire that change in attitude... hopefully.


No, because they are intertwined. They affect each other, you seriously can't tell me spending over a trillion dollars isn't going to have a massive (bad) effect down the road.
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I was pointing out your misuse of the word "wreak." The word you wanted was "wreck."
Now I have to ask why you're using the word "sonic." What the hell does buying tomatoes have to do with sound?


:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 7th, 2009, 3:28 pm 
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What bad effect has the current debt of several trillion dollars had? When I was in junior high, the debt was a bit over three trillion. In the years after, it rose another three trillion, and still nothing happened. Now it's almost 12 trillion. At which point does our debt, which has been too high to comprehend for quite a while, become an issue?

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 17th, 2009, 11:04 am 
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It's called future debts, like not being able to send your kids to college. Where do you think this money is coming from? It has to come from either two places: A) taxpayer dollars (Obama loves the robin hood approach), or B) printing new bills (which could easily led to hyperinflation). Then, as you stated, it very well might be a war that gets us out (oh, world war 2 DID get us out of the depression, not FDR's wasteful new deal, which prolonged it).

And our debt has never been this high to my understanding.

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What bad effect has the current debt of several trillion dollars had? When I was in junior high, the debt was a bit over three trillion. In the years after, it rose another three trillion, and still nothing happened. Now it's almost 12 trillion. At which point does our debt, which has been too high to comprehend for quite a while, become an issue?


*sigh

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 17th, 2009, 11:59 am 
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A friend of mine really thinks the Pontiac G8 is worth it, but I think I'd take a Focus RS if given the option right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 17th, 2009, 12:08 pm 
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All you guys seem to do is demonize Obama's actions. But logically, the stuff he's doing is perfectly valid. Watch:

1. We need to do something.
2. Something is better than nothing.
3. Therefore, we will do something.

Also, what do you right-wingers think America should do to stop its impending destruction?

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 17th, 2009, 12:41 pm 
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All you guys seem to do is demonize Obama's actions. But logically, the stuff he's doing is perfectly valid. Watch:

1. We need to do something.
2. Something is better than nothing.
3. Therefore, we will do something.

Ok, I'll take a shot at this:

1. I agree.
2. Not if that something is destructive. For instance, someone could walk through streets of New York, and say "oh my gosh look at the homeless people," then decide to go on a genocide against those people. Why not? At least we won't have to worry about them not having homes, and hey, it's something!Simply doing anything to get out of a mess is a really bad idea. And something is an exceptionally iffy word.
3. So that something included quadrupling the national debt...?

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Also, what do you right-wingers think America should do to stop its impending destruction?


Exactly what we right-wingers have been bitching about the entire time. STOP THE ENDLESS OUT OF CONTROL SPENDING, cut wasteful programs, lower taxes on ALL Americans, and finally, stop taxing the rich more. They already pay twice as much as everyone else, not to mention they are the ones supplying the jobs, and taxing them is imo, simply anti-American. One of the great things this country was founded on was the idea of rewarding success, so why are we going to punish those people for being successful?

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A friend of mine really thinks the Pontiac G8 is worth it, but I think I'd take a Focus RS if given the option right now.

My parents just bought a new car through this program. A Honda Civic Hybrid. We already have one that's 3 years older. Awesome car, really nice. Uber good gas mileage too (mid to high forties usually).

Think that about covers it.

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 17th, 2009, 2:04 pm 
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Just a little heads up, Obama took control of the US when the economy was wrecked. A Republican (synonymous with fiscally conservative small government, right??? Right???) spent 8 years destroying the economy. Did the multiple wars create value for our country? Did they create good will in the world? Did global warming denial serve a positive purpose?

Yes, the government is taking debt to subsidize everyone's car buying frenzy. Yes, it's probably bad for many people, including:
A) People who pay the most taxes (IE probably not you)
B) Car repair shop workers/owners (Once again, probably not you, but coincidentally my uncle, who bitches to no end)
C) Oil Cartels
D) Luxury Car Companies

This is good for:
A) Consumers who drive inefficient vehicles
B) Banks which provide car loans
C) Car Dealerships
D) Car Manufacturers

We can look at this multiple ways besides "the government is becoming increasingly socialist and giving away everyone's money to poor people".

#1 Driving enables people to live further from work, which substitutes more efficient mass transit, walking, or bikes (the most efficient form of transportation). This encourages urban sprawl, which helps to enable traffic jams, larger, less efficient houses, "unnecessary" need for lawn maintenance and water use, increased cost for installation and service of communications and electrical utilites, etc etc etc.
#2 The government is subsidizing businesses that are highly inefficient, ignore pending market scarcity (fuel), and fail to innovate. These businesses also ignored national and international trends in competition, such as China providing cheaper steel than Detroit due to Chinese fuel subsidies, and union-less assembly plants started in the south and Mexico by mostly foreign car companies.

Do I think that enabling people to buy more cars is a good thing? Not really, unless it enables someone who is currently not creating any value in our country to create a significant amount, especially if it creates a positive flow of income coming from somewhere foreign.

It allows blue collar workers to continue destroying value in an inefficient industry. Henry Ford is credited with the assembly line, and it's about time that it died and was replaced by a completely automated car manufacturing system. You mean to tell me that machines can create the most precise devices on earth with no human interaction (microprocessors) but they can't invent an mechanical arm to attach a hose, install a windshield wiper blade, staple in upholstery, install a car stereo? I think this is bad.

As far as why is debt bad, read Warren Buffet's opinion on it: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1053684/posts

If that's too hard for you to understand, then think of a debt as a reverse-investment. If we as a country have no money, owe everyone else money, and are paying our money out to China, Japan, Canada, Mexico, Europe, they'll start buying all of our stuff, including our buildings, farmland, and means of technological innovation. Without technological superiority and resource control, we cannot remain a superpower.

Debt can be good, if it is taken on to pay for an investment that will yield a greater return. However, our borrowed money is being used for value destruction; unnecessary wars, bloated bureaucracy, pointless subsidies, etc etc.


In the end, whether this program is a good idea, in my view, is dependent on a few factors:
1) Does it have the potential to create a greater value that was spent at a higher rate than market investments? Probably not, because it creates an overall less efficient environment.
2) Does it make our country safer or more secure? Only marginally, because we don't control fuel supply, we've just become less dependent upon it.

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 17th, 2009, 2:33 pm 
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Just a little heads up, Obama took control of the US when the economy was wrecked. A Republican (synonymous with fiscally conservative small government, right??? Right???) spent 8 years destroying the economy. Did the multiple wars create value for our country? Did they create good will in the world? Did global warming denial serve a positive purpose?


Uhm, and how is the economy fairing now?

And Bush is not to blame totally for the destruction of the economy, if you actually read and look at the polls, the U.S had a healthy and steady increase in GDP (and jobs) until 2006, what happened then, you ask? Simple: the Democrats took over congress. Shortly after that, the recession settled in, the one we are still mucked into, 1.2 trillion dollars later and no thanks to Obama's stimulus bill.

As for the wars...value to whom? Madmen whack jobs like Chavez, Ahmadinejad, Kim Jong-il? And the value it created was rid the world of a terrorist who was a total threat to freedom (and America), as well as free 40 some million Arabs from tyranny. So yes, I'd say it had multiple values. Thus far, the world is still functioning fine, and I haven't heard about any major counties going up in flames despite our evil ways with emissions. And for the record, global warming has close to zero actual credibility, it is all speculation, the earth is simply going through cycles of warm and cold. We had record lows this last winter throughout the Midwest..and were I live, a very good year in terms of snowfall, so...global warming? I think not.

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 17th, 2009, 3:00 pm 
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Just a little heads up, Obama took control of the US when the economy was wrecked. A Republican (synonymous with fiscally conservative small government, right??? Right???) spent 8 years destroying the economy.

First off, Republicans used to stand for small fiscally conservative government. They didn't act that way, and were abandoned as a result. I'm not even sure what your point of including that was.

Second, Bush also took control of the economy when it was going south. Then 9/11 happened. And yet the economy continued to chug along pretty decently and had a pretty shallow recession. Then the economy did well for a few years, even thogh we were fighting two wars and facing sky high gas prices. Yes, it finally crashed in the end (hint: it always happens). As we all know, this is mostly due to the housing bubble bursting (due to policies created under Clinton and perpetuated by Bush - and I haven't really heard anything about Obama stopping them), and compounded by the whole credit-default-swap-crap (which i don't believe had anything to do with government policies). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Bush was the best leader, but saying he spent 8 years destroying it not only makes it sound intentionally malicious but it mischaractizes it to the extreme.

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Did the multiple wars create value for our country?

To the Afghanistan war, yes absolutely. We were attacked, we needed to defend ourselves and uproot them to prevent them or others from trying the same shit again.

To the Iraq war, its still too early to say. Iraq was a long term plan, not a short one. Its a shame they marketted it as one, although its so very hard for people to buy into long term commitments in recent years. So far all that can be said is it currently appears to be headed where we hoped it would.

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Did global warming denial serve a positive purpose?

Lots, since the whole thing is crap to begin with. So that was another 8 years of not being under the godawful Kyoto treaty and similar bills (and god knows what Al Gore would have done as president). Although its ultimately futile, since cap and trade still going to get passed in the near future.

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Yes, the government is taking debt to subsidize everyone's car buying frenzy. Yes, it's probably bad for many people, including

You left out charities (a lot of them work of donated vehicles), wrecking yards (bill requires destruction of the engine, so can't salvage for parts), used car lots (clunkers must be destroyed, can't resell). And lets not forget that the majority of the money is being sent overseas.

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This is good for:
A) Consumers who drive inefficient vehicles
B) Banks which provide car loans
C) Car Dealerships
D) Car Manufacturers

A) Sort of false. A giant chunk (I dont know if its majority or not) are people trading in their secondary vehicles they don't use much, but their primary car may be fine. In fact, many of the new cars being bought aren't really all that efficient (The Ford Escape, a SUV, is the most purchased car)
C & D) Not false but not nearly as true as it sounds. Most people buying cars would do so anyway, just spread out over the next 6 months-year. This just clumps them up in a big rush, then we'll be hearing how bad car sales are over the next year (which wont' help consumer confidence). There's an example of that from the not so distant past, when they were giving out 0 interest car loans, it sparked a big rush before the deals expired.

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It allows blue collar workers to continue destroying value in an inefficient industry. Henry Ford is credited with the assembly line, and it's about time that it died and was replaced by a completely automated car manufacturing system. You mean to tell me that machines can create the most precise devices on earth with no human interaction (microprocessors) but they can't invent an mechanical arm to attach a hose, install a windshield wiper blade, staple in upholstery, install a car stereo? I think this is bad.

Computer manufacturing isn't really like car manufacturing. Hell, the results really aren't even that great if you think about it - most processors of different speeds are due to flaws in the manufactring process, so they have to clock them down so they imperfect ones run ok, but they all come out of the same batch. This isn't to say its impossible (obviously), but if it were cheaper you can bet Japan would be doing it (as far as i know they aren't - in the US they can't because of unions).

Oh, do I need to bring up the implications of putting hundreds of thousands or millions out of work by replacing them with machines?

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As far as why is debt bad

I don't think anyone's argueing debt is good. The only extent is how bad is it? In my opinion, its rapidly approaching the point where this country is going to have a major crisis.

Edit - Dark did bring up one good point while I was posting mine: the republicans sure as hell aren't the only ones responsible for the mess we're in, they did have a pretty solid hold on congress for the last 2 years of Bush's term

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 17th, 2009, 3:33 pm 
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I'd like to address one thing quickly. People, mostly Dark_Nemesis, continually point out that the debt has increased since Obama took office.

1. The economy was headed this way to begin with, you don't enter a recession overnight.

2. It takes input, usually money, to fix economic problems. Of course if you can come up with a plan to fix the economy without spending a cent, I'd be all ears.

I'm not saying Obama has fixed the economy, I'm also not saying that Bush caused the recession in his actions. What I AM saying is that the world isn't black and white (especially economically), you can't just blame one person or one group for a complex issue like an economic recession (which is global by the way) everyone has a hand in this issue, a hand in creating it and a hand in solving it.

And I'd rather have Obama honestly trying to fix issues, and telling us about issues directly and honestly rather than have what Bush gave us, which was generally just smoke and mirrors to hide the really big underlying issues.

Also the debt will have an effect on our future, but national debts are completely different from personal debts, and trying to compare the two won't work. We're still not really sure what negative effects this debt will have in the future, just like we don't know what positive effects will come from other things in the future.

Edit: And don't try telling me global warming isn't real. (not to mention it's climate change)


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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 17th, 2009, 3:53 pm 
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Edit: And don't try telling me global warming isn't real. (not to mention it's climate change)


A heads up....













Global warming isn't real.

Quote:
I'm not saying Obama has fixed the economy, I'm also not saying that Bush caused the recession in his actions. What I AM saying is that the world isn't black and white (especially economically), you can't just blame one person or one group for a complex issue like an economic recession (which is global by the way) everyone has a hand in this issue, a hand in creating it and a hand in solving it.


Which is why you just got done slamming the GOP for ruining the American economy. Understand ya :wink:
And yes you can blame one party or the other, though I agree some polices overlap. But if a Republican congress passes a bill, and that bill fails to work, then it is Republican's to blame. It is called taking responsibility for ones actions.

[Edit] I'm saying Obama will ruin the economy in the way he's headed.

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 17th, 2009, 3:58 pm 
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People, mostly Dark_Nemesis, continually point out that the debt has increased since Obama took office

This is directly because of his policies to spend a crapton. Bank bailouts, car bailouts, health care, and of course the giant stimulus packages. And his projected deficits over the next 10 years aren't pretty either - they don't really go down at all, just trillion after trillion. And the budget office even says the real numbers are actually higher then those projections.

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It takes input, usually money, to fix economic problems. Of course if you can come up with a plan to fix the economy without spending a cent, I'd be all ears.

Well, not quite, becuase the economy will usually recover on its own - it just takes longer. The big issue is how the money is being spent. The stimulus is the greatest example: It's nearly 1 trillion dollars, but 70% of it isn't slated to be spent untill a year after the bill is passed (a good chunk of it is 3-4 years down the road). This bill was suppose to be an instant jump start, but it didn't really do that much. Hell, if it was suppose to be so urgent, why wasn't it limited to things that start within 6 months, and then in 6 months come back and add more if needed? All it became is a giant pork bill, and that's why people are upset.

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And I'd rather have Obama honestly trying to fix issues, and telling us about issues directly and honestly rather than have what Bush gave us, which was generally just smoke and mirrors to hide the really big underlying issues.

To be fair, I don't know how much to blame Obama, and how much to blame those corrupt jackasses in congress like Pelosi.

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Edit: And don't try telling me global warming isn't real. (not to mention it's climate change)

It's not. Based on your reply, you sound as if you refuse to entertain the idea that it could be incorrect. Which really isn't something you should be about a scientific discussion where the data is nowhere near conclusive. And just to clarify, we're discussing man-made global warming, as natural global warming is conclusive (well, maybe not if you're a creationist...)

DarnYak


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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 17th, 2009, 4:15 pm 
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I've seen/heard people say: "Global warming caused by humans is a real and present threat, and if you believe otherwise, you haven't done enough research."
And: "Global warming caused by humans is a myth, and if you believe otherwise, you haven't done enough research."
So, the only thing I get from that is: "If you want to know whether mankind is causing global warming, do the research."
I should note that doing the research does not mean go to a website on global warming or anti-global warming which shows a one-sided view and only presents research that supports the idea, discarding any that doesn't fit. Might consider going to both, though.

My apologies for assisting in the derailment of the thread. Please return to the primary topic.

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 Post subject: Re: Cash for Clunkers?!
PostPosted: August 17th, 2009, 4:46 pm 
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Everyone who has studied weather with any amount of comprehension understands that the climate naturally goes through cycles of heating and cooling this is not new. Al Gore for whatever reason decided he would take advantage of people's ignorance to perpetuate the myth of man-made global warming (which due to the record lows in many places around the world in recent years has been changed to climate change), thus lining his own pocket and those that shared his agenda, whipping people into a frenzy over a hoax is always good business for some. Honestly when I hear people crying, "What about the polar bears?! They'll all drown because of global warming!" I can't help but shake my head in amazement. Do some research (lol go figure) polar bears are excellent swimmers for one, they won't be drowning to a natural phenomenon unless they are already weak/ill etc. Also what do you think water up north does, it melts and freezes, melts and freezes, albeit not as quickly as some people seem to think. Not but what 10 or less years ago people were saying, "Woe, beware of global cooling!The next Ice Age is upon us!" Go figure nothing came of that. If you study the systems of the planet and learn how perfect everything is, and how despite man's sometime negative influence it always recovers given time it's comical that people are arrogant enough to believe that they are destroying the world through their minuscule actions.

Learn your place and don't follow the crowd of stupidity.


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