So I'm baring down and getting ready to work on EoD on this long weekend. With any luck I'll have another beta out soon. Some help would be fantastic. Mostly I just need some help brainstorming on the heroes. It would be useful for me just to hear the ideas of some different people. Obviously with the style of game that EoD is, the heroes need to be important, but not all that essentially important to gameplay. They shouldn't have single target nuke spells and things like that. Or at least that is my opinion, but I want to hear yours.
Just post up here whatever you would like to say, and perhaps we can even arrange on time to meet on battle.net to meet so that we can talk in real time. That would be spiffy.
Thanks for all of your help!
(P.S.: If you don't know what EoD is, someone can kindly give you beta .81, so long as you are of the trustworthy sort. Basically anyone on this forum can have it though. It is an altered melee map in the same vein as Ring Wars, but about Warcraft 2.)
EoD needs you!
EoD needs you!
"RAWRR" -closing lines of Big Trouble in Little China
The heroes all mostly have stock skills of some sort. A few are modified, but for the most part they are straight from WC3. For starters, lets work with Admiral Proudmoore, since most people say he is the most unbalanced. Currently his ultimate is tranquility. This is very strong obviously because of the sheer numbers of units the map uses. It basically restores the Alliance land forces to full health. He also uses Silence, which I think is a fine skill for this sort of map, but just doesn't belong on this hero. He uses a skill I made called Warrior's Aura, which is his only skill I plan on keeping on him. It is essentially Unholy Aura, although the values have been tweaked and the animation changed.
So to summarize, we have Admiral Proudmoore, lord of the merchant island nation of Kul Tiras, in need of three skills. Direct nukes, aoe heals and the like are not acceptable. Also for this character I would prefer he stay away from aoe damage spells, although some other heroes will have them. Buffs, passive or active melee are really what I'm looking for on this hero. He already has an aura, so he does not need another one. One final request, his skills should be of a nautical theme, although they don't have to be.
On a rather unrelated side note, in one of the WC3 books it mentions that Proudmoore has a son who was in Kul Tiras's navy. I'm thinking the book is Day of the Dragon, but I am unable to find where it is exactly. I'd like to know his name so that he can be green's second hero.
If I get a lot of feedback on this one, I'll post up the next, and so on and so forth until will get through all of them.
So to summarize, we have Admiral Proudmoore, lord of the merchant island nation of Kul Tiras, in need of three skills. Direct nukes, aoe heals and the like are not acceptable. Also for this character I would prefer he stay away from aoe damage spells, although some other heroes will have them. Buffs, passive or active melee are really what I'm looking for on this hero. He already has an aura, so he does not need another one. One final request, his skills should be of a nautical theme, although they don't have to be.
On a rather unrelated side note, in one of the WC3 books it mentions that Proudmoore has a son who was in Kul Tiras's navy. I'm thinking the book is Day of the Dragon, but I am unable to find where it is exactly. I'd like to know his name so that he can be green's second hero.
If I get a lot of feedback on this one, I'll post up the next, and so on and so forth until will get through all of them.
"RAWRR" -closing lines of Big Trouble in Little China
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Tehw00tz
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How about 'Ship Summon' a summon which could summon ships, and with more levels it could add more ships or a more powerful ship.(
Or there could be another summon ability which could summon peasents that can restore(repair)only ships.
Ocean's Wrath, could be an AoE nuke in which a tidal wavish missle is hurled at a group of enemies dealing dmg or a debuff(Or it could be a chain lightning effect that uses a wave or water model instead of lightning.)
(Most of the good moves for an Admiral type of guy have been taken by ToB)
Or there could be another summon ability which could summon peasents that can restore(repair)only ships.
Ocean's Wrath, could be an AoE nuke in which a tidal wavish missle is hurled at a group of enemies dealing dmg or a debuff(Or it could be a chain lightning effect that uses a wave or water model instead of lightning.)
(Most of the good moves for an Admiral type of guy have been taken by ToB)
ДɷϣRØLEɷӟP
Summoning permanent units is a very very very bad idea I think, I apologize for not mentioning that earlier. and the Ocean Wave ability will probably be used, just on a caster hero. A ship repair ability might be cool though, I'll see what I can do with that.
"RAWRR" -closing lines of Big Trouble in Little China
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BustroQuick
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I'll help you test, assuming I have the time 
I thought on the map's design and have come to some conclusions, which I will put into a list, maybe it can help you.
PROS-
• Scale is done very nicely, the amount of units (IMO) is perfect.
• The sides, for the most part, seem balanced.
• Town upgrades are done neatly.
• Overall, the map is fun.
CONS-
• Unit control is slow, having 12 selected at a time makes micro ability very limited, especially in large fights. Perhaps adding some sort of combat interface or a way to organize units into Legions.
• Upgrades and hero revival seem to be done sloppily. Perhaps adding a hero building (it can be done by making a hero and then setting Is Unit Building to true in the Object editor) with the upgrades/hero revival abilities on it. This was you can select it by using the button on the upper left.
• Telling each individual spellcaster to cast a spell is a pain, perhaps making them autocast would help.
• The 'underground' towns don't seem very cavelike. Maybe add some line of sight blockers around the edges so they seem more close-in.
Reborn
I thought on the map's design and have come to some conclusions, which I will put into a list, maybe it can help you.
PROS-
• Scale is done very nicely, the amount of units (IMO) is perfect.
• The sides, for the most part, seem balanced.
• Town upgrades are done neatly.
• Overall, the map is fun.
CONS-
• Unit control is slow, having 12 selected at a time makes micro ability very limited, especially in large fights. Perhaps adding some sort of combat interface or a way to organize units into Legions.
• Upgrades and hero revival seem to be done sloppily. Perhaps adding a hero building (it can be done by making a hero and then setting Is Unit Building to true in the Object editor) with the upgrades/hero revival abilities on it. This was you can select it by using the button on the upper left.
• Telling each individual spellcaster to cast a spell is a pain, perhaps making them autocast would help.
• The 'underground' towns don't seem very cavelike. Maybe add some line of sight blockers around the edges so they seem more close-in.
Reborn
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Hammel
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The Autocast can be done this way (I think):
Take a basic auto-cast ability, let's say Human Heal. Change CD/Mana/Target/ w/e to what you need, when the basic spell isnt what you need.
Also create a spell with the effect you want (like Charm, as an example), no mana cost, no cd, nothing, unit ability
Then create a dummy caster with the Charm Spell, no model, locust ability (unselectable)
Then create a trigger like this:
Event - A Unit casts a spell
Condition - Spell Equal To "Custom Spell" (what you did above)
Actions - [dunno the exact syntax, Create a dummy unit at position of unit targeted by spell and make it do actions, actions: generic expiration timer of 3 secs and cast Dummy Charm at unit targeted by spell]
I dont have the WE on this computer, so I cannot tell you how to exactly do it, but there are some tutorials on this on wc3campaigns.
When you want the auto-casting unit to die, you need to add that to the trigger.
For the controlling abilities: Add a hero-building (as someone mentioned for ups), and give it a command ability.
With that you can select a type (Melee, Cavalry, Archers, Casters, Air, all, siege, w/e) and a target location, then a trigger picks all units matching condition (condition=type selected) and sends it to the target point of the command ability. You can make the "type selected" through a spellbook ability.
For the Admiral: What about a well that heals A LIMITED amount of units NEARBY? Like Essence of Blight ability with a max of 5+Level units in a radius of 300 for X hp/sec or cast? That would fit his theme (water, sea), heal some units (helpful for a commander) and wouldnt make him too imba.
Still, that shouldnt be combined with a repair ability.#
In terms of the summon: Why don't you let him summon a powerful flagship, Misha-like? High CD, high mana cost and a long casting time (20 secs). Therefore he gets ONE ship with special, powerful skills/auras and the ability to transport units, especially the hero. Also it should have higher stats than normal ships so it doesnt get screwed all the time.
Due to the Misha-like he can only have one at a time, not leading to too much imbalance through amassing them (maybe the ship itself may be a bit strong, though... but balancing that is up to you). When you don't like creating one single unit, it could also be a morph that you can cast on a normal cannon ship (or whatever they are called).
-Ham
Take a basic auto-cast ability, let's say Human Heal. Change CD/Mana/Target/ w/e to what you need, when the basic spell isnt what you need.
Also create a spell with the effect you want (like Charm, as an example), no mana cost, no cd, nothing, unit ability
Then create a dummy caster with the Charm Spell, no model, locust ability (unselectable)
Then create a trigger like this:
Event - A Unit casts a spell
Condition - Spell Equal To "Custom Spell" (what you did above)
Actions - [dunno the exact syntax, Create a dummy unit at position of unit targeted by spell and make it do actions, actions: generic expiration timer of 3 secs and cast Dummy Charm at unit targeted by spell]
I dont have the WE on this computer, so I cannot tell you how to exactly do it, but there are some tutorials on this on wc3campaigns.
When you want the auto-casting unit to die, you need to add that to the trigger.
For the controlling abilities: Add a hero-building (as someone mentioned for ups), and give it a command ability.
With that you can select a type (Melee, Cavalry, Archers, Casters, Air, all, siege, w/e) and a target location, then a trigger picks all units matching condition (condition=type selected) and sends it to the target point of the command ability. You can make the "type selected" through a spellbook ability.
For the Admiral: What about a well that heals A LIMITED amount of units NEARBY? Like Essence of Blight ability with a max of 5+Level units in a radius of 300 for X hp/sec or cast? That would fit his theme (water, sea), heal some units (helpful for a commander) and wouldnt make him too imba.
Still, that shouldnt be combined with a repair ability.#
In terms of the summon: Why don't you let him summon a powerful flagship, Misha-like? High CD, high mana cost and a long casting time (20 secs). Therefore he gets ONE ship with special, powerful skills/auras and the ability to transport units, especially the hero. Also it should have higher stats than normal ships so it doesnt get screwed all the time.
Due to the Misha-like he can only have one at a time, not leading to too much imbalance through amassing them (maybe the ship itself may be a bit strong, though... but balancing that is up to you). When you don't like creating one single unit, it could also be a morph that you can cast on a normal cannon ship (or whatever they are called).
-Ham
O.O you guys are super helpful.
I've always been crappy with dummy casters, but I'll give it my best shot. A good amount of the unit skills need to be reworked, as teams that have clerics or warlocks can basically stun lock an enemy hero. I'll prolly just make those stuns unable to hit heroes.
I'm also very interested in the well ability. That particular summon could be interesting, perhaps a flagship for the Admiral. Maybe if you load Proudmoore into it the flagship would become more powerful or something. That would be cool, because in every game so far green always takes Proudmoore to the eastern front (where the land battles are) asap.
I am inclined to believe that the Alliance has a slight advantage over the Horde, although I don't think it is to any extreme. I'm hoping to fix this by widening up the area around Dun Algaz and adding a more direct land bridge between the it and Dun Modr.
Ditto on the caves. Truth be told, I'm reworking quite a bit of the terrain for the next release. Kul Tiras is now larger and will require some sort of landing force to destroy, most likely. The ruins of Northshire now look more like ruins which gives pink a bit of a defensive advantage. As I said, the whole Thandol Span area is going to be increased. And now caves will be more "cavey."
And I was considering reworking upgrades extensively. I kind of like the idea of upgrading individual units. This would probably be done by choosing at any given town to create, say, steel forged swords for this round and this round only. So the next wave of units that spawn would have steel forged swords, but the next wave after that would not.
I've always been crappy with dummy casters, but I'll give it my best shot. A good amount of the unit skills need to be reworked, as teams that have clerics or warlocks can basically stun lock an enemy hero. I'll prolly just make those stuns unable to hit heroes.
I'm also very interested in the well ability. That particular summon could be interesting, perhaps a flagship for the Admiral. Maybe if you load Proudmoore into it the flagship would become more powerful or something. That would be cool, because in every game so far green always takes Proudmoore to the eastern front (where the land battles are) asap.
I am inclined to believe that the Alliance has a slight advantage over the Horde, although I don't think it is to any extreme. I'm hoping to fix this by widening up the area around Dun Algaz and adding a more direct land bridge between the it and Dun Modr.
Ditto on the caves. Truth be told, I'm reworking quite a bit of the terrain for the next release. Kul Tiras is now larger and will require some sort of landing force to destroy, most likely. The ruins of Northshire now look more like ruins which gives pink a bit of a defensive advantage. As I said, the whole Thandol Span area is going to be increased. And now caves will be more "cavey."
And I was considering reworking upgrades extensively. I kind of like the idea of upgrading individual units. This would probably be done by choosing at any given town to create, say, steel forged swords for this round and this round only. So the next wave of units that spawn would have steel forged swords, but the next wave after that would not.
Last edited by Ocean.dll on September 3rd, 2006, 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"RAWRR" -closing lines of Big Trouble in Little China
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CryptLord1234
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"Upgrades and hero revival seem to be done sloppily. Perhaps adding a hero building (it can be done by making a hero and then setting Is Unit Building to true in the Object editor) with the upgrades/hero revival abilities on it. This way you can select it by using the button on the upper left. "
Bad. Not good. Warcraft III does not like you doing hero buildings, although it IS possible in World Editor. Perhaps, instead, make a regular building, but add a trigger that's based on a chat entered to select the upgrade building...
Event--chat string '-upg' is typed as an exact match
Action--(Entering Player) selects (Upgrade Building)
That'd make it so whenever you want to find your upgrader, just type -upg and you automatically select it. Might be a bit spammy on the Allied chat, though...
As for the creating a dummy caster, use JASS to do so. I'd refrence you to the following page: http://www.wc3sear.ch/viewtopic.php?t=10112 (If you have any experience in any programming language, this is easier to pick up.)
And Hammel, it'd look like this in World Editor:
Event--Unit casts a spell
Condition--Spell is equal to (Spell you want)
Action-Create 01 (DummyCaster) for (Owner of (Casting Unit))
Action-Order Last Created Unit to cast (Actual spell, you'll want to use the cast string for it.) On target unit/point.
Action-Wait 1 second
Action-Remove Last Created Unit
I much prefer to do so in JASS, since it takes up a lot less room, and the way this GUI trigger works, it CAN be screwed up if cast at the wrong time. Also, make sure the dummy caster has the ability Locust. That makes it untargetable and unselectable.
And your 'stun lock' problem, Ocean? Is it that they stay stunned forever? If so, make sure the stun duration is *NOT* set to 0.00. That means it'll last forever; set it to 0.01.
Bad. Not good. Warcraft III does not like you doing hero buildings, although it IS possible in World Editor. Perhaps, instead, make a regular building, but add a trigger that's based on a chat entered to select the upgrade building...
Event--chat string '-upg' is typed as an exact match
Action--(Entering Player) selects (Upgrade Building)
That'd make it so whenever you want to find your upgrader, just type -upg and you automatically select it. Might be a bit spammy on the Allied chat, though...
As for the creating a dummy caster, use JASS to do so. I'd refrence you to the following page: http://www.wc3sear.ch/viewtopic.php?t=10112 (If you have any experience in any programming language, this is easier to pick up.)
And Hammel, it'd look like this in World Editor:
Event--Unit casts a spell
Condition--Spell is equal to (Spell you want)
Action-Create 01 (DummyCaster) for (Owner of (Casting Unit))
Action-Order Last Created Unit to cast (Actual spell, you'll want to use the cast string for it.) On target unit/point.
Action-Wait 1 second
Action-Remove Last Created Unit
I much prefer to do so in JASS, since it takes up a lot less room, and the way this GUI trigger works, it CAN be screwed up if cast at the wrong time. Also, make sure the dummy caster has the ability Locust. That makes it untargetable and unselectable.
And your 'stun lock' problem, Ocean? Is it that they stay stunned forever? If so, make sure the stun duration is *NOT* set to 0.00. That means it'll last forever; set it to 0.01.
"L4D2 promises to set a new benchmark for co-op games. . ." Like L4D promised to hand us new maps, survivors, and zombies? We've seen how that works.
Not in that sense Crypt. Its just that you can have 5 warlocks that all have the skill firebolt. You have each warlock use firebolt in succesion and the enemy hero is effectively stunned for 10 seconds or something.
Also, thank you for writing the trigger format out. Its very easy to read too
I think I've got enough decent ideas for Proudmoore, save maybe an ult. Next up, lets work on Rhonin. He's definetly one of my favorite warcraft characters, and is the hero of Day of the Dragon. I wanted him to be an earth mage, so I threw some earth type skills on him. Earthquake is fine, but he has a bunch of dumb stuff like stomp and thorns aura. This hero is meant to be 'powerful.' If you have a good suggestion for a shockwave or an aoe skill, put it up. Also a debuff would probably be fitting. Whatever comes to mind I guess, just no summons on this guy, or direct nukes, or heals. He definetly isn't a healer.
Also, thank you for writing the trigger format out. Its very easy to read too
I think I've got enough decent ideas for Proudmoore, save maybe an ult. Next up, lets work on Rhonin. He's definetly one of my favorite warcraft characters, and is the hero of Day of the Dragon. I wanted him to be an earth mage, so I threw some earth type skills on him. Earthquake is fine, but he has a bunch of dumb stuff like stomp and thorns aura. This hero is meant to be 'powerful.' If you have a good suggestion for a shockwave or an aoe skill, put it up. Also a debuff would probably be fitting. Whatever comes to mind I guess, just no summons on this guy, or direct nukes, or heals. He definetly isn't a healer.
"RAWRR" -closing lines of Big Trouble in Little China
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BustroQuick
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Hammel
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Yeah, maybe it doesnt trigger when it is autocasted (just like you cannot trigger after passive skills)... well, you can work with the buff ^^ maybe. And since we want an autocasted spell (so you dont have to micro so much), I just went for heal, forgetting the limits of WC3 (=no triggers after autocast/passive)
-Ham
-Ham
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CryptLord1234
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Meh. Bliz must've put in a lot of triggering for it to work or something, 'cause whenever I try to use hero buildings it first lags insanely then crashes. *Shrug*
"L4D2 promises to set a new benchmark for co-op games. . ." Like L4D promised to hand us new maps, survivors, and zombies? We've seen how that works.
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BustroQuick
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CryptLord1234
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Hammel, every United States ship has the acronym USS in front of it. (United States Ship). Every British ship has HMS (Her Majesty's Ship). For example, the USS Arizona was sunk during the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Now, as for making one up, NMS? (National Merchant Ship, I dunno, you said it was a merchant nation...)
Hammel, your way's actually better, I forgot that it was removed at the end of the expiration timer, not killed. And I missed the Locust mention, so I figured I'd bring it up...
Now, as for making one up, NMS? (National Merchant Ship, I dunno, you said it was a merchant nation...)
Hammel, your way's actually better, I forgot that it was removed at the end of the expiration timer, not killed. And I missed the Locust mention, so I figured I'd bring it up...
"L4D2 promises to set a new benchmark for co-op games. . ." Like L4D promised to hand us new maps, survivors, and zombies? We've seen how that works.
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Hammel
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Oo now I got the meaning of acronyme... before I thought it was a strange combination of typoes Oo.
BBQ Kul Tiras... doesnt make sense, but a barbecue is nice ^^.
IND - Imperial Naval Destroyer (although IND alone sucks)
KTS Pandora - Kul Tiras Ship Pandora... and KTS doesnt sound too bad. The ship itself was named after Pandora because you never know what it's captain is really gonna do, so towards his enemy he is like Pandora's box.
-Ham
BBQ Kul Tiras... doesnt make sense, but a barbecue is nice ^^.
IND - Imperial Naval Destroyer (although IND alone sucks)
KTS Pandora - Kul Tiras Ship Pandora... and KTS doesnt sound too bad. The ship itself was named after Pandora because you never know what it's captain is really gonna do, so towards his enemy he is like Pandora's box.
-Ham
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CryptLord1234
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Hm. I can help with that...
Make an Item effect ability. (I use Armor Bonus +1). Nullify all values, including the icon (If it's not already) Name it something you'll remember. (ProudmooreShipAttch for example)
Go to the Art-Target field and enter whatever effect you want.
Go to Art-Target Attachment Point 1 and type in exactly this: origin
Go to Art-Target Attachments and set the value to 1.
Give the ship the ability.
As for SFX to attach to it, Devotion Aura or perhaps Command Aura/War Drums would work.
If you need to find custom models and don't know where, http://www.wc3sear.ch is a good place.
Make an Item effect ability. (I use Armor Bonus +1). Nullify all values, including the icon (If it's not already) Name it something you'll remember. (ProudmooreShipAttch for example)
Go to the Art-Target field and enter whatever effect you want.
Go to Art-Target Attachment Point 1 and type in exactly this: origin
Go to Art-Target Attachments and set the value to 1.
Give the ship the ability.
As for SFX to attach to it, Devotion Aura or perhaps Command Aura/War Drums would work.
If you need to find custom models and don't know where, http://www.wc3sear.ch is a good place.
"L4D2 promises to set a new benchmark for co-op games. . ." Like L4D promised to hand us new maps, survivors, and zombies? We've seen how that works.
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CryptLord1234
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Actually, no you won't, if you leave no value in the Art-Icon slots. Think about it: The Crown of Kings will add to your stats, but you don't see a "Strength +5" icon in the unit's action box thing...
"L4D2 promises to set a new benchmark for co-op games. . ." Like L4D promised to hand us new maps, survivors, and zombies? We've seen how that works.
Remove warstomp from the Dalaran hero, Rohan.
Ok :p thats a start.
I found that you should maybe say what units come from what upgrades?
since as dalaran, I get 0 magic units at one city (wtf?) but casters at my capital :p
Also, FLying machine scouts are useless in large numbers, and they get there fast since 2 per spawn at level 4 or 5 and theres few ranged units, to kill them, the bulk being melee units.
WTB paladin?
And yes, Alliance do have an advantage in the geography etc..
Ok :p thats a start.
I found that you should maybe say what units come from what upgrades?
since as dalaran, I get 0 magic units at one city (wtf?) but casters at my capital :p
Also, FLying machine scouts are useless in large numbers, and they get there fast since 2 per spawn at level 4 or 5 and theres few ranged units, to kill them, the bulk being melee units.
WTB paladin?
And yes, Alliance do have an advantage in the geography etc..
-= I am the Grand Hammer =-
-Lithium flower
-Lithium flower
Vast apologies for not letting you guys see Beta .82 tonight. My friend from college called me on the phone and asked if I wanted to hang out. I thought he had left already, but regardless it was the last time I'd be able to see him until Thanksgiving.
Very sorry guys. I'm busy tomorrow night, but I'll round you all up for a Wednesday or Thursday test if you guys are interested.
Very sorry guys. I'm busy tomorrow night, but I'll round you all up for a Wednesday or Thursday test if you guys are interested.
"RAWRR" -closing lines of Big Trouble in Little China