Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight
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Evolution
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Author:  Ford Prefect [ August 19th, 2009, 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

Exactly, your opinions and beliefs are all that you will hold true, regardless of what the actual truth is.

Author:  LeCitron [ August 19th, 2009, 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

Dark_Nemesis wrote:
It's not really about sides, Elreth, it's about what is true and what is not.

And I've decided to largely ignore Ford, Elreth (I recommend you do the same) as he refuses to believe that Evolution has always been, and will always be...a theory.


It seems this essentially backfired, seeing how DN was partly ignored for a while.

Besides DN you are obviously the one with biases that you don't even try to mask. You assume that all biologists are "anti-christian", when in reality (and I said this in an earlier post) most leading biologists are christian, and unless they are self-loathing, I highly doubt they are anti-christian. Side note: is everyone who disagrees with your specific point of view anti-christian now? You've named a few different groups of people as "anti-christian" even since I joined a few days ago. Not to mention you continually claim that Evolution "has always been, and will always be...a theory". Theories, as I've shown time and time again with definitions and quotes, are as good as FACT in the scientific community, and are treated as such until a flaw with the theory is found. Once more you're treating scientific theories the same way you'd treat common theories.

It would be great if you started paying attention to what other people are posting in this thread rather than continually saying the same thing practically every other post.

P.S. This post may be somewhat hostile, but I'm tired of continually saying the same things and just getting ignored. It seems DN only pays attention to short posts or ones that mention his name or are directed at him.

Author:  Dark_Nemesis [ August 19th, 2009, 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

Quote:
It would be great if you started paying attention to what other people are posting in this thread rather than continually saying the same thing practically every other post.


Funny, I noticed the same thing about your posts too. :wink:

I've heard/read about those select few Ford posted, and happen to know they are blatantly anti-christian. I am judging this by the numerous interviews and things they have said, so I can assume such.

Author:  Ford Prefect [ August 19th, 2009, 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

No, you haven't, because I've linked to at least two people who stated themselves to believe in God and evolution. It's not an uncommon belief, since the Biblical version of events is impossible according to the evidence, but that doesn't prevent an omnipotent force being responsible for the initial creation.

Author:  Dark_Nemesis [ August 19th, 2009, 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

Richard Dawkins is an atheist. Learn the facts.

Quote:
God and evolution.


This isn't possible if you really believe in one or the other.

Author:  Tehw00tz [ August 19th, 2009, 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

John Paul the 2nd said that evolution was compatible with evolution.

Author:  Ford Prefect [ August 19th, 2009, 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

Dark_Nemesis wrote:
Quote:
God and evolution.


This isn't possible if you really believe in one or the other.

Not possible? Why not?

Author:  Kalrithus [ August 19th, 2009, 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

I'll spell it out plainly.
Those who call themselves christians if they are true christians should be followers of christ. As such they would believe what the Bible says in regards to creation. The literally creation of the world and universe and life on Earth in 6 literal consecutive days. Those who do not believe the Bible in this case are not christians, they either playact religion like so many people do so that they can be seen as a "good person" or they are simply misinformed/ignorant.

Hope that clears it up for you :D

Author:  Ford Prefect [ August 19th, 2009, 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

So, the pope is only play-acting?

A true Christian who is able to accept reality over the writings in a book which contradict reality assumes that his book is not meant to be a literal interpretation. Instead, it is full of allegories, stories which teach a lesson, but are not real.
The ignorant ones are the ones who refuse to accept that the Bible's version of events is impossible in light of scientific evidence.

Author:  Dark_Nemesis [ August 19th, 2009, 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

I shall ask you, and ask you once more: stop belittling other people's faith. Your posts have been repeatedly anti-religious. Religion is important to alot of people, and even though it means shit to you, you still must be respectful. You have openly offended several people here, myself included (even though I'm not terribly religious). I have reported your posts numerous times, receiving notices that your endless rants were taken care of, yet you still persist in attacking anyone who doesn't buy into your evolutionary propaganda and such. I am not going to argue with you about Creationism/Evolution anymore, it is beyond pointless and wasting my time, and will likely earn me a ban or warning, since I am on the verge of totally flaming you. My point in closing. PLEASE STOP ATTACKING OTHER PEOPLE'S FAITHS, BELIEFS, THOUGHTS, OR SUCH. Thank you,

Sincerly,

Dark_Nemesis

Quote:
The ignorant ones are the ones who refuse to accept that the Bible's version of events is impossible in light of scientific evidence.


And actually, I gave two examples from the Bible stating otherwise. Obviously this doesn't prove the Bible is correct, but it does make a couple of valid points.

Author:  Ford Prefect [ August 19th, 2009, 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

What faith did I belittle? If you're talking about believing something that's been scientifically proven to be untrue, well, news for you, I'd belittle your belief if you thought the world was flat, too. It has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with proven facts.

You gave two examples of good advice given by the Bible. Advice that could just as easily come from a man. Something I stated after that post. Just more evidence of you ignoring what I say.

You... don't think the world is flat... do you?

Author:  Kalrithus [ August 19th, 2009, 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

As stated before I understand that there's no hope of changing your mind in a forums such as this especially since you are utterly convinced you are right :D The Catholic church, since you sited the pope, originates around the first/second century as a a former church of Christ (can't remember if it was Ephesus offhand) that had elder's that exalted themselves highly and introduced the forerunner to the clergy/laity distinction and the papal system. You claim the Bible is self-contradictory but have given no evidence to the contrary, claim events in the Bible could not possible happen and are in conflict with science, when the Bible gives examples of scientific concepts before their day, such as gravity keeping the earth rotating around the sun as if it were "hung upon nothing". Or the paths of the sea we know as currents, by calling the Bible such things you do belittle the faith of others as you belittle the very thing that gives them hope and guidance in this life. You claim to have facts on your side and as such call those who believe differently ignorant which is indeed a kinder word than some others I'm sure you'd like to use. Having dealt with people like you in the past there is simply no point in continuing a discussion when we have no reasonable starting point, such a thing would be pointless and an even greater waste of time.

To DarkNemesis- I understand your feelings but drop this pointless discussion as it gets none of us anywhere, unless you just enjoy wasting time/have time to kill. Considering how many posts both of you have made I imagine you have too much time on your hands lol.

Author:  Dark_Nemesis [ August 19th, 2009, 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

Quote:
To DarkNemesis- I understand your feelings but drop this pointless discussion as it gets none of us anywhere, unless you just enjoy wasting time/have time to kill. Considering how many posts both of you have made I imagine you have too much time on your hands lol.


No, totally agreed here. I am done with Ford Prefect.

Author:  Waki_Miko [ August 19th, 2009, 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

Dark_Nemesis wrote:
PLEASE STOP ATTACKING OTHER PEOPLE'S FAITHS, BELIEFS, THOUGHTS, OR SUCH


When Religion attempts to step on Science, I don't see why Science shouldn't be allowed to do the same.

Without a doubt, a big problem that causes polarisation between Religion and Science is that the concept of religion is an affront to science, primarily because the basis of religion is in faith, regardless of overwhelming evidence that may indicate the contrary, whereas in science, faith does not make something more right or wrong, and is frowned upon.

In science, if something is proven wrong (or something proves to be unclear), corrections are made.
In religion, well... God Forbid if any mere mortal alters the Sacred Texts and Teachings :D
(Those of you who are religious, do let me know if i'm wrong about this statement)

Note: What I mean by 'faith' here, is the unbending loyalty towards something (does not have to be a God) no matter whatever happens.

Author:  Ford Prefect [ August 20th, 2009, 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

Kalrithus wrote:
As stated before I understand that there's no hope of changing your mind in a forums such as this especially since you are utterly convinced you are right :D
You described DN, not me. I've already proven my willingness to alter my belief if presented with evidence that contradicts it.
On the other hand, after reading this, and doing secondary research to confirm anything that you believe he might have made up on the spot to fool you, I don't know how anyone could not acknowledge the truth of evolution. Unless, that is, they wish to believe that their god is intentionally and deviously deceptive on a grand scale.

Author:  Dekar [ August 20th, 2009, 2:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

Ford Prefect wrote:
So, the pope is only play-acting?

A true Christian who is able to accept reality over the writings in a book which contradict reality assumes that his book is not meant to be a literal interpretation. Instead, it is full of allegories, stories which teach a lesson, but are not real.
The ignorant ones are the ones who refuse to accept that the Bible's version of events is impossible in light of scientific evidence.


This. We even learn this in school.

Author:  Discombobulator [ August 20th, 2009, 5:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

Dekar wrote:
Ford Prefect wrote:
So, the pope is only play-acting?

A true Christian who is able to accept reality over the writings in a book which contradict reality assumes that his book is not meant to be a literal interpretation. Instead, it is full of allegories, stories which teach a lesson, but are not real.
The ignorant ones are the ones who refuse to accept that the Bible's version of events is impossible in light of scientific evidence.


This. We even learn this in school.


But how do you know what is real and what is not?

Author:  Dekar [ August 20th, 2009, 6:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

My teacher is a cool guy. For a religion teacher.

Sometimes he told us of his epic struggle against Jehowas Witness member, beating them with bible quotes that state that slavery is allowed and people should get their hands cut off for thieving. We should follow these examples just like wodden cutting boards > everything else.

Author:  LeCitron [ August 20th, 2009, 7:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

Dekar wrote:
My teacher is a cool guy. For a religion teacher.

Sometimes he told us of his epic struggle against Jehowas Witness member, beating them with bible quotes that state that slavery is allowed and people should get their hands cut off for thieving. We should follow these examples just like wodden cutting boards > everything else.


It's good to see someone who is actually in the middle of this argument. :P

This is the point in my post where I'd defend myself, evolution, and sometimes Ford against DN, but I've honestly stopped caring since he tends to ignore my posts anyway. However, I can't stop myself.

Dark_Nemesis wrote:
Quote:
It would be great if you started paying attention to what other people are posting in this thread rather than continually saying the same thing practically every other post.


Funny, I noticed the same thing about your posts too. :wink:

I've heard/read about those select few Ford posted, and happen to know they are blatantly anti-christian. I am judging this by the numerous interviews and things they have said, so I can assume such.


I'm in a discussion, when you use a point, I try to disprove your point with a counter-point. Since your point is always the same thing, my counter-points tend to be very similar
LeCitron wrote:
P.S. This post may be somewhat hostile, but I'm tired of continually saying the same things and just getting ignored. It seems DN only pays attention to short posts or ones that mention his name or are directed at him.


The reason I'm saying the same things over and over, is because I've said them in the past and you continue to ignore them. You argue the same point constantly, a point which tends to use misinformation, I then counter with a post providing the correct information (which tends to usually be the definition of the word theory, which you still have yet to prove that you've even read once) which you then ignore or skim over, and use the same point you used before.

Also there's two sides to the "stop attacking people's beliefs" coin. In many places you've blamed atheists for many things, and you seem to hold a misconception of how atheists act. The majority of your posts relating to atheism tend to imply that atheists are evil and bad and will do immoral things because they don't have a religion to guide them. This is an attack on a belief.

The next time I post, it will be without any quotes from DN, and I will focus on what I should be focusing on, and that's the evidence and support behind evolution. Speaking of which, did anyone take the time to watch any of that video series I posted a link to a while back? It's a 7 part series which focuses on evolution, its evidence, its repercussions and how we got to the point we are now (biologically). To watch one of those videos would likely cut down on at least 1 page of posts, if not more. I'd like to request DN and Kalrithus watch the seventh video in the series, because it focuses on the combination of evolution and God, if you watch no other videos, at least watch this one considering I can't prove other people's faith in Christianity does not wane with their understanding of evolution unless I were one of these people (and there are testimonies on the video). It originally aired on PBS, but the narrator is Liam Neeson, so it's not that boring. Finally, in case you missed my past post the name of the series is Evolution, just go to Google Video and type in Evolution Episode 7, after a little sifting it should be somewhere on the first page.

Author:  Discombobulator [ August 20th, 2009, 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

Dekar wrote:
My teacher is a cool guy. For a religion teacher.

Sometimes he told us of his epic struggle against Jehowas Witness member, beating them with bible quotes that state that slavery is allowed and people should get their hands cut off for thieving. We should follow these examples just like wodden cutting boards > everything else.


My point was, since some parts obviously shouldn't be followed (no need to name examples), why should you follow the other ones? There are many parts that don't make much sense to a sceptic, but are still believed in. Life after death, heaven and hell, for example. How do you know that the part about having to eat shit (yes, there is one) is an allegory, or is idiocy, and the parts with "turn the other cheek" and "be a good person" isn't?

If you're going to reply to me that you choose the parts of the Bible that fit your own morals (which include being a good person but don't include bullshit), why do you need religion at all? Why not just be a good person, and call it a day? Certainly, any good god would let a disbelieving good person into Heaven, no?


True story:

I had two really, really religious girls in my class. They kept arguing with the religion teacher about many things, mostly the role of women in the church. They never seemed to get any explanation about why women are not allowed to be patriarchs, or popes. Btw, official Serbian Orthodox Church doctrine is that women who are having their periods may not enter church, as they are unclean.

Author:  LeCitron [ August 21st, 2009, 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

Discombobulator wrote:
Dekar wrote:
My teacher is a cool guy. For a religion teacher.

Sometimes he told us of his epic struggle against Jehowas Witness member, beating them with bible quotes that state that slavery is allowed and people should get their hands cut off for thieving. We should follow these examples just like wodden cutting boards > everything else.


My point was, since some parts obviously shouldn't be followed (no need to name examples), why should you follow the other ones? There are many parts that don't make much sense to a sceptic, but are still believed in. Life after death, heaven and hell, for example. How do you know that the part about having to eat shit (yes, there is one) is an allegory, or is idiocy, and the parts with "turn the other cheek" and "be a good person" isn't?

If you're going to reply to me that you choose the parts of the Bible that fit your own morals (which include being a good person but don't include bullshit), why do you need religion at all? Why not just be a good person, and call it a day? Certainly, any good god would let a disbelieving good person into Heaven, no?


True story:

I had two really, really religious girls in my class. They kept arguing with the religion teacher about many things, mostly the role of women in the church. They never seemed to get any explanation about why women are not allowed to be patriarchs, or popes. Btw, official Serbian Orthodox Church doctrine is that women who are having their periods may not enter church, as they are unclean.


I'm going to try and tackle this...a little. For religions the three most important things are (not necessarily in this order): 1) Their holy scriptures/book(s)/teachings. 2) Their actual sermons and practices. 3) Faith. Generally speaking a religion won't change #1, even if parts of #1 seem immoral, outdated, confusing or contradictory (good example is the big difference between the Old and New Testaments of the Bible, although some things in the New testament contradict teachings in the Old Testament, the New Testament teachings are generally used as "more correct" but the Old Testament remains fully intact and even the parts that are no longer taught remain in the Old Testament). In order to not change #1, but keep their followers from practicing what isn't seen as the proper religion anymore, #2 can be used to reinforce the "correct teachings" and kind of polish away the outdated ones. Of course it would be easier to just edit #1 every few centuries, but for the sake of #3, #1 remains unchanged although #2 and the actual teachings of the religion may change vastly over time. Also changes to #2 that come from outside of the Bible have been made. For instance in the Medieval Ages, the Pope (I'm not sure exactly which one) decreed music with multiple harmonies to be sinful, while this had no roots in the Bible, it was practiced and taught throughout Europe.

Let it be known that this post was written with absolutely no intention of criticizing any religions or religion in general, I simply tried to explain why some things are done the way they are.

Author:  Ford Prefect [ August 21st, 2009, 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

You know, there is an active thread on religion...

Author:  LeCitron [ August 21st, 2009, 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

Yeah that got a little off-topic.

Author:  Cokemonkey11 [ August 21st, 2009, 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

Dark_Nemesis wrote:
Richard Dawkins is an atheist. Learn the facts.

Quote:
God and evolution.


This isn't possible if you really believe in one or the other.


Unless you're like me and you don't follow Christianity to the letter.

I believe they're one and the same at a conceptual level.

Author:  Dekar [ January 21st, 2010, 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Evolution

Everyones favorite topic ... alive!

I'm a video!

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