Yo.

[DarnYak]

The difference between US law and European law is that it protects society under the guise of protecting individuals.

Are you refering to the US or EU?

For example, if a man under debt commits suicide, his immediate family must pay.

I don't believe that's true in the US, it comes out of the estate but you can't make the children pay more. Spouses would of course need to pay since they usually share funds and stuff, although there may be exceptions to that.

DarnYak

[Casval]

The difference between US law and European law is that it protects society under the guise of protecting individuals.

Are you refering to the US or EU?

For example, if a man under debt commits suicide, his immediate family must pay.

I don't believe that's true in the US, it comes out of the estate but you can't make the children pay more. Spouses would of course need to pay since they usually share funds and stuff, although there may be exceptions to that.

DarnYak

That first comment actually makes no sense now that I read it. I'm writing these posts while doing practice LSAT problems, so I'm a bit distracted. Anyway, I was referring to the US, but that's not really a difference, so disregard it.

For the second comment, yeah, I was referring to the spouse. Should've been more specific.

[DarnYak]

I'm writing these posts while doing practice LSAT

Great fun.

DarnYak

[DarkNemesis]

You guys need to become more socialist, then you'd be happier. America sux atm. USSR was greatest empire in world.

Lol, someone needs a little history lesson. Look at all the countries that tangled with Socialism/Communism. Were are they now, Ion? Granted, a few countries that cling to these ideals are still alive today, but as I said before, are suffering far worse then the US. You could argue that diverging degrees of Socialism/Communism were used, and yes, I suppose they have small differences. But the underlying theme is all the same. Government regulating your wealth, ideals, and ultimately, your life. Europe has become increasingly bad. And Obama seems more than content to bring some of their socialist politics over here. Yes, Europe may not be a "Socialist" totally, but they are heavily leaning in that direction, and history has repeatedly showed us that socialism fails. It demeans the very principles that this country was founded upon, personal freedom, integrity, respect, the right to worship who or what you will. Hell, I heard the other day that a family in England that runs a boarding house is having a lawsuit against them simply because their policies states no homosexuals in the same room overnight. Honestly, you call that happiness when you cant even live by your own principles, whatever they may be? its not happiness, its hell.

And how the hell do you become happier with MORE governement control? America is still a great country and no, the certainly does not suck. I am very happy we are NOT, for the most part, like Europe, were they have stupidities such as socialized medicine, although Obama is trying to ram that through congress as well. You can't grow government without regulating freedom. And a vast majority of Americans want less government, not more.

[DarnYak]

Hell, I heard the other day that a family in England that runs a boarding house is having a lawsuit against them simply because their policies stats no homosexuals in the same room overnight.

You really need to learn when an example, even if it were completely right, hurts your own cause instead of helping it.

DarnYak

[DarkNemesis]

I'm confused...how is that example hurting my cause?

[DarnYak]

Because discrimination generally isn't looked highly upon, even by people believing they have a right to do it. The arguement also isn't much different then if they turned away a black man/white female because they don't like interracial couples.

DarnYak

[DarkNemesis]

It is different though. Your talking about something that has been recognized by law, versus something else (gay right's whathaveyou) that isn't, totally anyway. Basically something that is law vrs. something that isn't. Big difference imo.

And really, is that the point? When government can come into your own home and tell you how to live and what to believe, then punish you for believing in something else, you know its messed up.

[Casval]

You guys need to become more socialist, then you'd be happier. America sux atm. USSR was greatest empire in world.

Lol, someone needs a little history lesson. Look at all the countries that tangled with Socialism/Communism. Were are they now, Ion? Granted, a few countries that cling to these ideals are still alive today, but as I said before, are suffering far worse then the US. You could argue that diverging degrees of Socialism/Communism were used, and yes, I suppose they have small differences. But the underlying theme is all the same. Government regulating your wealth, ideals, and ultimately, your life. Europe has become increasingly bad. And Obama seems more than content to bring some of their socialist politics over here. Yes, Europe may not be a "Socialist" totally, but they are heavily leaning in that direction, and history has repeatedly showed us that socialism fails. It demeans the very principles that this country was founded upon, personal freedom, integrity, respect, the right to worship who or what you will. Hell, I heard the other day that a family in England that runs a boarding house is having a lawsuit against them simply because their policies stats no homosexuals in the same room overnight. Honestly, you call that happiness when you cant even live by your own principles, whatever they may be? its not happiness, its hell.

And how the hell do you become happier with MORE governement control? America is still a great country and no, the certainly does not suck. I am very happy we are NOT, for the most part, like Europe, were they have stupidities such as socialized medicine, although Obama is trying to ram that through congress as well. You can't grow government without regulating freedom. And a vast majority of Americans want less government, not more.

Whoa there. You can't use that argument here.
When you talk about governmental systems, you need to not only look at the underlying theories behind them, but also extant circumstances that brought these systems into existence.

Let's use the example of communism:
1. Theory: Communism, in its most basic doctrines, stresses a struggle between the proletariat and the bourgeois. Key word here is struggle. In the end, the proletariat is supposed to rule. That's also key.
2. Circumstances: Communism, in real life, arises in countries with a recent history of oppression. See China (Japanese, American, and Western European invasions, coupled with a weak, corrupt central state), Russia (The Tsar, etc.), Cuba (Batista's reign).
These are countries which, for one, don't have an established mindset of equality, and secondary to that, develop communism in a reactionary fashion.

When we talk about democracy or Western-style socialism, we're talking about something completely different. These are well-established countries that are wealthy, often previously imperialistic, which have well-developed, longstanding social traditions of dissent, free speech, and a well-developed economy.

In a sense, when you compare communism and democracy, you are taking the worst of communism and the best of democracy. Not only do they spawn in different fashions, and in different circumstances, but there are not that many communist states to begin with:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_state
On the other hand, there are plenty of countries who are declared democracies, but have failed. Iraq under Saddam Hussein was a democracy. So was pre-1988 Olympics South Korea. Both governmental systems were dictatorships, but were democratic by constitution. The defense that they were not "true" democracies will not hold here, either. No communist country, existing or dead, adhered fully to the tenets of communism, so they were not true communists either.

In essence, comparing government/economic systems by example is always going to be a flawed practice if you don't consider other factors--and there are a lot of to consider. If you want to take it to the extreme, you could easily make an example for Nazism, saying that Nazi-style fascism is the strongest form of government because the sole example of it dominated the majority of Europe.

------------------------------------------

With regards to the 2008 presidential election in the US, I abstained my vote since I didn't like any of the candidates. But what beef do you have with socialized medicine, exactly? If it's the prospective of lower-quality care due to an oversaturation of patients, then you can blame the health care industry and doctors' associations.

These associations, especially specialists, keep their occupation's numbers low not to weed out the idiots, but to make more money. The less of them, the more demand per individual, the more money per individual. If you compare the US health care system and other systems, you'll notice that while the US has superior technology and overall superior care (for the healthy), its public health is severely lacking, and the average person simply cannot compare. You may wait in line for a few weeks to get treatment in England, but at least in England, you can get care if you're broke. As far as I understand, even going to medical school is more or less free there. In the US, it costs $40k a year for most medical schools, and there's very limited financial assistance since you're expected to earn it all back. Either way you look at it, it's flawed.

Personally, I think the best health infrastructure in the world belongs to Canada. It's publically-funded, meaning everyone can get care, but privately-provided, meaning there's still a monetary incentive for good work.

------------------------------------------

On the subject of the English boarding house, I would side in favor of the couple that runs it. Boarding houses, as I understand, are not run as businesses like motels, and as such, probably wouldn't be treated under the same discrimination laws. For example, if I put forth an ad looking for a roommate, but requested that he not be gay, I couldn't be sued because my personal discrimination is not up for judgment under the legal system.

[Ion]

give abortion control to state for eugenic purification plz

china best country in world makes US its bitch lol noobs

[DarnYak]

The legallity is somewhat irrelevant here, since this is about persuading people. Right now, there's generally a pro-gay rights push. Even most people against gay marriage believe in roughly equal rights. Discrimination, while not directly anti-gay rights, still runs counter to the sentiment. So instead of seeing you make a rational arguement, its just seen as being a bigot. Thus your arguement hurts your cause rather than helping it.

Instead you need to find an example that is less emotional so people see your point more. Your story is about the government telling businesses how they must run, so go with another recent example (although from the US), Obama's new requirements for MPG for the car manufacturers. This is of course, a stupid idea because its requiring businesses to produce products the government things people SHOULD want rather than what they DO want, and it's just going to make the companies worse off as a result.

DarnYak

[Ion]

that's why in China government says what is good, what people like, what companies like and what to produce. Then eugenics control remove people who don't think this way so great success is achieved.

lern2govern plz

[Casval]

The legallity is somewhat irrelevant here, since this is about persuading people. Right now, there's generally a pro-gay rights push. Even most people against gay marriage believe in roughly equal rights. Discrimination, while not directly anti-gay rights, still runs counter to the sentiment. So instead of seeing you make a rational arguement, its just seen as being a bigot. Thus your arguement hurts your cause rather than helping it.

Instead you need to find an example that is less emotional so people see your point more. Your story is about the government telling businesses how they must run, so go with another recent example (although from the US), Obama's new requirements for MPG for the car manufacturers. This is of course, a stupid idea because its requiring businesses to produce products the government things people SHOULD want rather than what they DO want, and it's just going to make the companies worse off as a result.

DarnYak

I think in this case he's completely disregarding the company and just strong-arming the decision based on his ecological policies. I don't know if I like it or not--the article I read today said cars may cost ~$1.5k more, but IMO that's a pretty good tradeoff for superior efficiency. Either way, this isn't going to be standard until 2016, so I don't think it'll have that much impact on the current manufacturer situation.

that's why in China government says what is good, what people like, what companies like and what to produce. Then eugenics control remove people who don't think this way so great success is achieved.

lern2govern plz

It's also why the black market is huge there =P

[DarkNemesis]

These associations, especially specialists, keep their occupation's numbers low not to weed out the idiots, but to make more money. The less of them, the more demand per individual, the more money per individual. If you compare the US health care system and other systems, you'll notice that while the US has superior technology and overall superior care (for the healthy), its public health is severely lacking, and the average person simply cannot compare. You may wait in line for a few weeks to get treatment in England, but at least in England, you can get care if you're broke. As far as I understand, even going to medical school is more or less free there. In the US, it costs $40k a year for most medical schools, and there's very limited financial assistance since you're expected to earn it all back. Either way you look at it, it's flawed.

Personally, I think the best health infrastructure in the world belongs to Canada. It's publically-funded, meaning everyone can get care, but privately-provided, meaning there's still a monetary incentive for good work.

Ok, few problems here. One, healthcare isn't free. And its certainly not a right. It's something you earn. It's a privilege. Nowhere in the constitution does it state providing healthcare for everyone. If your going to argue injustice and so on, its gonna happen no matter what you do. And the oppertunity for good healthcare is availbe here, this is America. Yes, it costs alot, that's because its the best. Not saying I'm totally happy with it.
Two, Canada's healthcare sucks. I know people who came over here to get healthcare because they couldn't get adequate care in Canada, previously, he also had to fake a heart attack to convince the doctor he was sick, no joke. And the waiting list is more like months, I heard the average is something like eight and a half weeks.

[DarnYak]

think in this case he's completely disregarding the company and just strong-arming the decision based on his ecological policies.

I believe that somewhat, but there's also a big theme among liberals that big tucks don't sell, and thus the reason they fail is they're producing the wrong cars. The example you'll hear all the time in the news is the comparision of "while Toyota was making the Prius, GM's making the hummer". This logic completely disregards that majority of Toyota's sales are..trucks, and only a tiny fraction are the Prius.

DarnYak

[DarkNemesis]

think in this case he's completely disregarding the company and just strong-arming the decision based on his ecological policies.

I believe that somewhat, but there's also a big theme among liberals that big tucks don't sell, and thus the reason they fail is they're producing the wrong cars. The example you'll hear all the time in the news is the comparision of "while Toyota was making the Prius, GM's making the hummer". This logic completely disregards that majority of Toyota's sales are..trucks, and only a tiny fraction are the Prius.

DarnYak

I think alot of it Yak is the quality of the cars being sold. Americans aren't stupid, and know when a car sucks. You can thank the labor unions for GM and Chrysler's bankruptcy X_x

[DarnYak]

One, healthcare isn't free. And its certainly not a right.

That's not entirely clear..

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

So yea, there's an arguement that healthcare is a right.

I think alot of it Yak is the quality of the cars being sold. Americans aren't stupid, and know when a car sucks. You can thank the labor unions for GM and Chrysler's bankruptcy X_x

Um, American cars don't suck. Sure, they had some issues in the 90s, but currently they're back to being great cars. They just have a bad rep because everyone in the news industry drives foreign cars.

DarnYak

[Casval]

These associations, especially specialists, keep their occupation's numbers low not to weed out the idiots, but to make more money. The less of them, the more demand per individual, the more money per individual. If you compare the US health care system and other systems, you'll notice that while the US has superior technology and overall superior care (for the healthy), its public health is severely lacking, and the average person simply cannot compare. You may wait in line for a few weeks to get treatment in England, but at least in England, you can get care if you're broke. As far as I understand, even going to medical school is more or less free there. In the US, it costs $40k a year for most medical schools, and there's very limited financial assistance since you're expected to earn it all back. Either way you look at it, it's flawed.

Personally, I think the best health infrastructure in the world belongs to Canada. It's publically-funded, meaning everyone can get care, but privately-provided, meaning there's still a monetary incentive for good work.

Ok, few problems here. One, healthcare isn't free. And its certainly not a right. It's something you earn. It's a privilege. Nowhere in the constitution does it state providing healthcare for everyone. If your going to argue injustice and so on, its gonna happen no matter what you do. And the oppertunity for good healthcare is availbe here, this is America. Yes, it costs alot, that's because its the best. Not saying I'm totally happy with it.
Two, Canada's healthcare sucks. I know people who came over here to get healthcare because they couldn't get adequate care in Canada, previously, he also had to fake a heart attack to convince the doctor he was sick, no joke. And the waiting list is more like months, I heard the average is something like eight and a half weeks.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Article 25, provision 1: Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

The majority of the world considers health care a right. Also, it's great that your friend came to the US for health care, but consider this: he at least had the option of waiting. Plenty of people in America don't have that option because it doesn't exist. In addition, don't forget the issue of health insurance, which is a whole 'nother snafu altogether.

[DarnYak]

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

We're talking about the US, not the idealistic utopian world that the UN pretends can exist.

DarnYak

[DarkNemesis]

The majority of the world considers health care a right.

I doubt it. And even so, that doesn't make it one. And who's gonna pay for it, you? Feel free then.

promote the general Welfare

Promote, not hand out.

Um, American cars don't suck. Sure, they had some issues in the 90s, but currently they're back to being great cars. They just have a bad rep because everyone in the news industry drives foreign cars.

Well, they've been at the bottom of the consumer reports for the longest I can remember.

[DarnYak]

And who's gonna pay for it, you?

The US will, indirectly. How? First, we get screwed by our own companies forcing us to pay multiple times what they charge in other countries for the same products. And second, we finance the western world's security for the most part, letting them spend a crapton of money they would otherwise need for their own defense. Hell, i read an article not to long ago that Canada's planning to suspend more or less its entirely military for a year just to save money.

DarnYak

[Casval]

The majority of the world considers health care a right.

I doubt it. And even so, that doesn't make it one. And who's gonna pay for it, you? Feel free then.

Even Bush's "Axis of Evil" has constitutions in place that grant health care as a right. And, my friend, if Obama's wishes come true, I will be paying for health care = )

And so will you!

[Ion]

Black market in China and regular market are same thing!

I was originally going to troll this ridiculous thread but now I'm going to settle with calling Dark a complete fucking moron. Reading your posts hurts my brain and makes me wish I had the time and energy to DDoS your life. Please go back to /b/.

I live in Canada and come from a family of psychiatrists and doctors, and I can say Canada's medical system is great. We do have problems such as waiting lists, and we're lacking in several specialist medical practices because of some of the dumb policies our governments have, but we've still got a great healthcare system- which thousands of Americans take advantage of every year. Like every other medical system we have problems but they don't deter from the quality of our system as it is and certainly don't pre-empt calling it a failure and 'awful' considering how much more we could accomplish if we had less restrictive policies.

I doubt it. And even so, that doesn't make it one. And who's gonna pay for it, you? Feel free then.

Money does not make you a better person, it makes you a richer person. Everyone should help pay for medicare because you care about your fellow citizen. I'm sure Yak will argue against that, but unlike you Dark he'll probably attempt at something intelligent. Having all the rich people with connections being he only ones able to afford healthcare in the US is ridiculous. However, if that's how you want to do it my eugenics plan will happen anyway and all will go well.

**EDIT: What article was it Yak. We're not suspending our military, Stephen Harper (our PM, you probably don't know this) is trying to find a way to pull out of the Afgan war and he's using the excuse the army needs restructuring and refinancing for a year to continue effective operations. So they're sticking to domestic training exercises. But who knows what'll happen since he's probably gonna fall apart and the guy we'll be getting is rarara rights.

[DarkNemesis]

Money does not make you a better person, it makes you a richer person. Everyone should help pay for medicare because you care about your fellow citizen. I'm sure Yak will argue against that, but unlike you Dark he'll probably attempt at something intelligent. Having all the rich people with connections being he only ones able to afford healthcare in the US is ridiculous. However, if that's how you want to do it my eugenics plan will happen anyway and all will go well.

Why the hell should I have to pay for lazy-ass Joe's healthcare when he refuses to work for a decent living? Caring about people doesn't mean forcing them to hand over their own money.

I was originally going to troll this ridiculous thread but now I'm going to settle with calling Dark a complete fucking moron. Reading your posts hurts my brain and makes me wish I had the time and energy to DDoS your life. Please go back to /b/.

Totally unnecessary.

I live in Canada and come from a family of psychiatrists and doctors, and I can say Canada's medical system is great. We do have problems such as waiting lists, and we're lacking in several specialist medical practices because of some of the dumb policies our governments have, but we've still got a great healthcare system- which thousands of Americans take advantage of every year. Like every other medical system we have problems but they don't deter from the quality of our system as it is and certainly don't pre-empt calling it a failure and 'awful' considering how much more we could accomplish if we had less restrictive policies.

So funny I couldn't believe I was reading it. That's my whole point, Ion, its that healthcare only becomes worse when you regulate it, christ, you even admitted that.

[Kalrithus]

The UN always has been, and very likely will be for the foreseeable future an utter and absolute joke when it comes to ANY policies it sets up. First they lack the authority to see any of them through, second they lack the will to see any of their "noble causes" through to the end. See the various massacres/genocides that happen around the world that the UN claimed after WW2 would not happen again. Those who put their faith in corrupt organizations like the UN and setting themselves up to be disappointed. On the subject of Health Care in the United States, hospitals are required under law to treat someone in an emergency whether or not they can pay. Sure some bum on the streets who can't work or won't work won't generally have their meds paid for, or be given a great deal of preventative care. Know why? Because it would not be feasible, when it comes to economics or frankly common sense. If you really want to create a generational debt much greater than what we have now, and cause us to pay much higher taxes then yea National Healthcare would be a fabulous idea! Except that the majority of Doctors/Nurses/Medical Professionals would go elsewhere in search of a place where they can make a lucrative living. If you don't understand what this means I'll spell it out, A massive decrease in medical treatment quality, the formation of long wait times even for emergency procedures, the furtherance of class warfare as the rich will be seen as getting preferential treatment by going first in said wait list. Frankly the collapse of the United States as it has been known for the past several decades, and the continual descent towards Socialism and the loss of our Superpower status as evidenced by the numerous European countries that have already fallen.

/endrant
Edit: =( this post was supposed to be positioned a few posts ago <--- stupid slow typing.