Stimulus Plan

[CryptLord1234]

Thank you for actually saying something other than "This is a ploy to kill capitalism!" Which, to be fair, you did a lot of.

As for lowering taxes and wasteful spending, the problem with that is that we need a net gain, not just a balance, to get rid of the slump and then the national debt. The problem, as I've seen heard it put by an Economics-obsessed friend of mine, is that we "tax like we're capitalist, spend like we're socialist. We need to either tax like we're socialist or spend like we're capitalist." Which, essentially, sums up what we should do. I agree on that point. I'd prefer a small period of "taxing like socialists, spending like capitalists" to get rid of the national debt, which would suck but would be necessary to fix that whole. . . $X trillion dollars in debt.

And I was saying, 'prove how removing regulations would help', as you originally argued, not 'don't release this stimulus bill.' I don't quite see how that is the solution to anything, either.

[Storamin]

DarkNemisis,

Trust in god, everyone else bring proof!

This includes you. You really aren't relaying facts. You're just nitpicking certain portions of the bill and saying that it's superfluous spending. And attempting to call me an idiot

It's the governments fault for forcing Fannie & Freddie to make loans that were not economically feasible, but that's a point of social policy. Very rarely is anything ever economically driven down in Washington.

To answer your question of "is this a financially sound business investment": HOWEVER, the other banks were not forced to do this, they were often given incentives to do so. Additionally, because of the cost of capital was so low, you could accept a high level of default while still making money. The person (sales department -- their focus is to make sales, they don't typically look at profit, because they are paid on comission) originating a lot of these Alt-A loans was paid on a commission basis, and then the bank that that person worked for turned around and securitized without recourse these loans for cash, leaving them with no exposure to the risk. See the agency theory. A lot of times there was no backup for income... so they would say they made 100k a year, but without the actual W2 to prove it. Which is required by law.

The major problem is that Americans have no financial literacy.

As far as my qualifications... ive got a CPA and and my masters from a top 25 bschool.

[DarkNemesis]

Thank you for actually saying something other than "This is a ploy to kill capitalism!" Which, to be fair, you did a lot of.

As for lowering taxes and wasteful spending, the problem with that is that we need a net gain, not just a balance, to get rid of the slump and then the national debt. The problem, as I've seen heard it put by an Economics-obsessed friend of mine, is that we "tax like we're capitalist, spend like we're socialist. We need to either tax like we're socialist or spend like we're capitalist." Which, essentially, sums up what we should do. I agree on that point. I'd prefer a small period of "taxing like socialists, spending like capitalists" to get rid of the national debt, which would suck but would be necessary to fix that whole. . . $X trillion dollars in debt.

And I was saying, 'prove how removing regulations would help', as you originally argued, not 'don't release this stimulus bill.' I don't quite see how that is the solution to anything, either.

Removing regulations on businesses would give then an incentive to higher again (much higher incentive) combine that with substantial tax reductions (Which Obama's are pathetic) and you already on your way out of this recession. The main problem I have with Obamie is his approach to this whole mess, which is: this the worst crises since the depression and we MUST spend 800 billion right now and here to get us out of it. Actually, this recession isn't that bad, the one in the 80's was far worse, so its nowhere near to the scale of the 30's, not even close. Just let America work its way out of this one, we don't really need a stimulus package, at lest not a 1,100 page, 800 billion dollar one, a small one would help, that's assuming its dedicated to "stimulating" the economy. Obama's isn't. It's, as my fellow party members call it: A "spending" bill, and rightly so.

[Storamin]

Thank you for actually saying something other than "This is a ploy to kill capitalism!" Which, to be fair, you did a lot of.

As for lowering taxes and wasteful spending, the problem with that is that we need a net gain, not just a balance, to get rid of the slump and then the national debt. The problem, as I've seen heard it put by an Economics-obsessed friend of mine, is that we "tax like we're capitalist, spend like we're socialist. We need to either tax like we're socialist or spend like we're capitalist." Which, essentially, sums up what we should do. I agree on that point. I'd prefer a small period of "taxing like socialists, spending like capitalists" to get rid of the national debt, which would suck but would be necessary to fix that whole. . . $X trillion dollars in debt.

And I was saying, 'prove how removing regulations would help', as you originally argued, not 'don't release this stimulus bill.' I don't quite see how that is the solution to anything, either.

Removing regulations on businesses would give then an incentive to higher again (much higher incentive) combine that with substantial tax reductions (Which Obama's are pathetic) and you already on your way out of this recession. The main problem I have with Obamie is his approach to this whole mess, which is: this the worst crises since the depression and we MUST spend 800 billion right now and here to get us out of it. Actually, this recession isn't that bad, the one in the 80's was far worse, so its nowhere near to the scale of the 30's, not even close. Just let America work its way out of this one, we don't really need a stimulus package, at lest not a 1,100 page, 800 billion dollar one, a small one would help, that's assuming its dedicated to "stimulating" the economy. Obama's isn't. It's, as my fellow party members call it: A "spending" bill, and rightly so.

Removing regulations on businesses gives them an incentive to hire people? How do you draw that conclusion?

If you give substantial tax reductions, do you ever plan on paying off the national debt & deficit? "substantial tax reductions" to whom? Business (C Corp, S Corps, LLPs, PSCs, ) or personal? And what would you recommend setting them at?

So the congressional budget office states this about the stimulus package: "The help is needed to reverse a downturn that CBO estimates will easily surpass the 1981-82 and 1973-75 recessions, each of which last 16 months, by mid-year."
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/60822.html

The CBO disagrees with you, significantly.

[DarnYak]

Ron Paul (remember him?) at CPAC

Not entirely relevent, but still worth posting

DarnYak

[Something]

I'm no genius, and have absolutely no idea about economics (that's okay, I'm very sure nobody here does either, despite their "education") but I can tell you right now that Obama's package is probably not going to work.

DarkNemsis is right. We don't need a package. We don't need money put into a system to fix the economy. We don't need money. What is needed is people working. Offering services and goods is JUST the same as offering money, except the difference between work/goods and fiat currency is WORKS/GOODS ACTUALLY EXISTS. Fiat currency isn't backed by anything, and is just paper. It is an idea. Manual labor exists. When worst comes to worst, people aren't going to just die out because their money isn't worth anything.

The biggest problem is the government tampering with the economy, trying to "help it". Regulations as mentioned previously of course is a problem. Another problem are bank loans, and their idea to create money out of thin air (banks CREATE money when a loan is given, they don't actually lose any money at all). So they romp around and spend money they don't even have. They loan out money they don't have. They claim to have yours and everyone elses money safe and sound. Ever heard of a "bank holiday"? That is what happens when everyone wants their money back. The government bails them out, and closes all banks, because the banks don't have the money to give.

You may ask why reducing regulations would help. Well, here is an idea. Regulations increase the cost of American products. If those product aren't purchased because of their cost, then where the hell does our money go? Certainly not to one of our American businesses. What about exports? Who wants to overspend on American products? Really? Meh.. Just an idea, what the hell do I know anyways? I don't have some fancy piece of paper to puff my chest out with.

All in all, I suggest you do your research before blabbing. The same goes for me, but at least I can admit that the above ideas could very well be wrong, plus, they are REALLY nothing more than "ideas" anyways. If you're really interested in learning something, then check out http://www.lewrockwell.com

By the way, research consists more than reading your typical news site: Fox, CNN, MSNBC (any others.. ?). It also consists of spending many hours of reading and comparing. Not to mention actual thought and consideration of the reading material. Also, please, don't talk about your damned education. You do realize that doesn't mean squat? Look at where all the education got our economy. How many crashes? Thought so.

[Laser_Wolf]

The biggest problem is the government tampering with the economy, trying to "help it". Regulations as mentioned previously of course is a problem.

The main problem would be corrupt politicians that make crooked regulations that help certain parties more than others.

[DarnYak]

(banks CREATE money when a loan is given, they don't actually lose any money at all)

You apparently don't understand how banks work. They loan out the money people have invested in them, they don't pull it out of thin air.

DarnYak

[Tehw00tz]

DarkNemsis is right.

Strike 1, I don't even know where to begin with this statement.

and their idea to create money out of thin air (banks CREATE money when a loan is given, they don't actually lose any money at all).

Strike 2, I don't even know where to begin with this statement.

If you're really interested in learning something, then check out http://www.lewrockwell.com

Strike 3, watchout, Dark is going to call you a flaming libertarian if you throw websites like that around.

[Storamin]

I'm no genius, and have absolutely no idea about economics

You're right.



Banks loan out money thru 2 ways: Investments in the company (think IPO), and money they are holding (deposits). Banks don't magically create money...

And the problem with "What is needed is people working. Offering services and goods" is the fact that you're offering a supply, but there is not sufficient demand. No business is going to produce something that there is not sufficient demand for. This is why you give out stimulus packages, so that there is a 'fake' demand, which causes businesses to create supply.

The economy is always going to contract and expand, with or without educated business managers... this is what laissez faire is about. Sometimes you have ups, sometimes you have downs. The idea of regulation is to soften the variability both ways. Whats your opinion on the current recession if there was no regulation? Would the current market be worse, better, or the same? and why?

It's just so funny to see people latch onto the idea of a true free market. Not gonna happen, ever. There is just too much exploitation in a true free market. Yall love focusing on the benefits of it, but you're not considering the costs.

If you're referring to my education? Funny stuff, dude, couple that with my experience brother.

[DarkNemesis]

So Storamin, Tewhootz, is this your "tolerance" kicking in? You Liberals are soo big when it comes to tolerating different beliefs/opinions, right?

Moving on.....

You guys act like you have to be a economics buff to know about the Spending Package. You don't, and your stupid for thinking so. This is a typical Left policy, that only a few selected "elite" can know and discuss this complex stuff, because the average American is too ignorant to comprehend it. Lame. I don't hate the Spending Package because I'm a Conservative, I hate it because its trash and won't work. Why do you think top economic advisers were even criticizing it? Don't believe me? A Harvard professor who teaches economics (can't remember the name, get it later) called the package the worst bill since the new deal and basically garbage. The New York Times, a known Liberal newspaper, wrote an article criticizing the package and comparing it to the one Japan tried to use to get them out of a recession. Again, don't believe me? Go to their website and look it up. In fact, I encourage you to.

Where is the bipartisan vote we were promised? Like the kind were zero Republicans vote in favor for the Package? Don't you think if your own party is having qualms about this monstrosity, it might be worth reconsidering? 800 billion, and you complain about Bush's 300 billion? I do agree that Bush spend way too much, but honestly, this is nuts. 300 million for new government cars, 50 million for the arts, 30 million to save a marsh mouse and to groom ATV trails and save fish dams. Millions for Planed Parenthood and food stamps. How, dear God, is this going to stimulate anything? Work with me, Storiman, Tehwootz, and please tell me how.

[Tehw00tz]

The funny thing here is that I'm not even a liberal.

[jamn455]

The funny thing here is that I'm not even a liberal.

That's because you are,


THE FLAMING LIBERAL

[Tehw00tz]

Which makes it even more funny because I'm not a liberal.

[Perhaps]

Millions for Planed Parenthood

Is an investment in my opinion, as opposed to allowing more production of unwanted children. Unwanted children lead to tax payers putting money into supporting them or problem children which generally grow up to problem adults, which costs us more in the law enforcement part and correctional facility part. I won't say "all unwanted children become problems," but the statistics are high enough to say "it's cheaper to give birth control."

[DarkNemesis]

The funny thing here is that I'm not even a liberal.

The funny thing here is that your showing all the indications of one.

[Something]

Actually, banks DO magically create money.

I used this example the other night, and I'll use it again!

Joe goes to get a bank loan for 10000 dollars, and the bank approves of it.
Joe gets 10000 dollars, but the bank also gets 10000 dollars. The bank MAKES MONEY OUT OF THIN AIR on EVERY LOAN.

Don't take my word for it though, do your own research. I told you what research is, and how to do it, so unless you follow those steps, then you haven't done any research. You've only skimmed. You have to DIG to learn.


What pisses me off is people like everyone here, including DarkNemsis who I previously agreed with. You go around and talk like you know what is right. You're all full of shit, you're all ignorant, and none of you know what will fix this economy. I'm included in that, of course, since I am honestly not well versed, I've only learned a little bit on the subject. But as stated before, at least I can admit to an idea not being the right idea.

[DarkNemesis]

Actually, banks DO magically create money.

I used this example the other night, and I'll use it again!

Joe goes to get a bank loan for 10000 dollars, and the bank approves of it.
Joe gets 10000 dollars, but the bank also gets 10000 dollars. The bank MAKES MONEY OUT OF THIN AIR on EVERY LOAN.

Don't take my word for it though, do your own research. I told you what research is, and how to do it, so unless you follow those steps, then you haven't done any research. You've only skimmed. You have to DIG to learn.


What pisses me off is people like everyone here, including DarkNemsis who I previously agreed with. You go around and talk like you know what is right. You're all full of shit, you're all ignorant, and none of you know what will fix this economy. I'm included in that, of course, since I am honestly not well versed, I've only learned a little bit on the subject. But as stated before, at least I can admit to an idea not being the right idea.

Of course we don't know what will totally "fix" the economy, and no one here claimed that. But as for ignorance, not so much. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A ECON BUFF TO UNDERSTAND THIS STUFF. Common sense, my friend. Plus, we are not saying what is necessarily right, but rather, what is wrong. It's no a question of who's right, but what is right. This stimulus package is very wrong. And please speak only for yourself on the ignorance bit, as you don't know any of us. Thanks.

[Discombobulator]

I'm inside the biggest dilemma I've had since I decided which faculty to enroll.

Who's the dumbest? DarkNemesis? Perhaps? Something? DarkNemesis? Perhaps? Something?

It just goes on, endlessly...

I'm so glad I don't live in America with people like them.

[Tehw00tz]

Thinking lowly of you and calling you an idiot makes me a liberal? I'd go on to say that 90% of the people on this forum are flaming liberals then.

[DarkNemesis]

Thinking lowly of you and calling you an idiot makes me a liberal? I'd go on to say that 90% of the people on this forum are flaming liberals then.

I don't know were the hell you drew this conclusion. But your free to think how you want.

Plus, you seen to ardently support the stimulus package, and while that along doesn't mean too much, it sure does raise a red (blue) flag. Because honestly, its really only liberals who endorse this trash bill.

[Tehw00tz]

Please find two posts that I explicitly state I fully support Obama and his bill

[jamn455]

I guess its a good thing that there are more trashy liberals that can win elections than cocksucking conservatives(This is not demeaning to all conservatives, just the ones that suck dick to get ahead in life, like DarkNemesis).

My facts show that that is about 92.342312341% of conservatives. It is a long percentage, thus it must be a fact.

[Ion]

So Storamin, Tewhootz, is this your "tolerance" kicking in? You Liberals are soo big when it comes to tolerating different beliefs/opinions, right?

It's statistically proven that Liberals are more likely to get hit by cars in life and ruin countries because they thumbsuck their way into people's pockets.

I think Obama should address the liberal problem in America as opposed to the economy. Fuck the economy. All it does is shit. Fluctuates, pisses you off, turns off when you need it and on when you don't. Why the fuck do we even bother, it's like that girl you knew who was like "oh yeah I'm free, maybe" and then you're like okay and she never shows up until next week, then you get her pregnant and go to hell.

Speaking of which, I concur with you Disco that planned parenthood is the best way to solve problems. Not only this, but I propose planned lifehood, where we can not only abort people before they're born, but after too. Because, seriously? Dark's right. Liberals are scum. I see people walking down the street, and then I see a liberal, and it's like tax-dollars just flooding out his ass cause all liberals are stuck up flaming gaywods. Fuck Bill Clinton.

I say we abort all Liberals. We can number them, and ship them off to Canada and bury them alive in snow. And you know what? Why not make THEM work for a change. We can put them into labor camps, deny them food and then use THEM to restart the economy. No money required- more jobs, fuck awesome idea. And we can abort the gay little ones and re-educate the ones who aren't listening.

Dark's right. Liberal's are intolerant of other peoples ideas. The rest of us on the RIGHT know what we're talking about. How many successful left-handed people are there in world? Like two, and they're both gay.

Fuck jews.

[CryptLord1234]

Actually, banks DO magically create money.

I used this example the other night, and I'll use it again!

Joe goes to get a bank loan for 10000 dollars, and the bank approves of it.
Joe gets 10000 dollars, but the bank also gets 10000 dollars. The bank MAKES MONEY OUT OF THIN AIR on EVERY LOAN.

Don't take my word for it though, do your own research. I told you what research is, and how to do it, so unless you follow those steps, then you haven't done any research. You've only skimmed. You have to DIG to learn.


What pisses me off is people like everyone here, including DarkNemsis who I previously agreed with. You go around and talk like you know what is right. You're all full of shit, you're all ignorant, and none of you know what will fix this economy. I'm included in that, of course, since I am honestly not well versed, I've only learned a little bit on the subject. But as stated before, at least I can admit to an idea not being the right idea.

Where'd you pull this "Bank gets 10,000 dollars from a loan" deal? If you're gonna be all mysterious and say, "You have to go find it" then I'll be less mysterious and say, "You're full of shit."