Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

An Aeon of Strife map for Warcraft 3
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PostPosted: May 22nd, 2009, 8:08 pm 
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Yak wanted a post about an issue, here's mine.

AoE Unit buffs are a large part of Eota, as are Wards. By wards I mean more then just serpent wards/DS totems and stuff like that. I mean all magical effects centered around a specific point.

These include but are not limited too.

Ebb
Divine Flame
Ice Spire (more a debuff ~~)
Banner
Dryad's Ult
Stumps
Taunting Treant
Grasping Treant

Now AoE unit buffs are very strong in themselves, especially with the size of pushes that happen in Eota.

AoE Buff
Mass Haste
HotM
Inner Fire
Banner Talent

AoE Debuff
Demo Blow
Crumble
Dire Howl
Blind

Dispells are the main "hard counter" to these spells. Most dispells have extremely long cool downs (unless at level 6), I think this is part to stop them from completly domination Wards and AoE buffs.

The main problem is that if the cooldown is too short dispells become too powerful, but if their too long no one likes getting them and they're only situationally usefull.

As it stands, AoE Unit buffs have some redundancy to this, being able to buff a lot more units so that the dispell AoE doesn't effect them all. Wards tend to have a lot of HP and can be hard to dispel.

To counter this I think that dispels should become stronger, but more restricted. Larger AoEs, larger damage to summoned units. Now how to restrict them I thought of dividing buffs and dispells into categories (mind/physical/elemental/nature as an example). Then dividing all buffs into these categories and giving them a value (skill level *X). To dispel a buff it would use up dispel value, so if you had 60 mind dispel value, you could dispel 10 buffs that have 6 mind value, or 60 with 1 value. Different dispells would have different values or effects. Some would only dispel mind debuffs, but would dispell al of them or a very large amout. Others would effect all types but have smaller dispel values. Wards would also have dispel values, a significantly larger number then debuffs. So you could dispel a ward and a few buffs, or a lot of buffs etc.

Now This might be overly complicated but I think it could be number crunched into a pretty good balance. Alternatively buffs and junk could simply divided into different categories and dispells changed to handle this. One example is Clairvoyance, it dispels mind-affecting debuffs? Which are what? There's no way to tell at the moment so I think the debuffs/buffs should be labled.

Now I'm not claiming this is the be all end all of solutions but just a single one. Hopefully with some discussion it can be enhanced to something even better, or just replaced completely.


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PostPosted: May 22nd, 2009, 8:46 pm 
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Were you writing this while I was writing mine? ;P

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PostPosted: May 22nd, 2009, 10:37 pm 
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In general I would caution against having "elemental" or categorical buff types. Not only would you need to know your own dispel characteristics (a simple matter, but one that would be lost on many players), but you'd need to know the characteristics of the buffs you're dispelling, which is a completely different matter.

Because EotA hero-picking is fairly translucent--there is a 90 second timer, and it doesn't show what heroes your enemy picks (in AP, you COULD deduce from cooldowns, but that's a huge pain), this makes the matter even more convoluted because it's impossible to pick counters, and if you happen to not have the correct dispel on your team, you're plain out of luck unless you want to dole out money for consumables.


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PostPosted: May 22nd, 2009, 10:46 pm 
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At first, I liked the elemental idea, however, Casval's post has convinced me otherwise. One of the great things about EotA (and there are many btw) is that no matter what hero you pick, your not necessarily doomed against an enemy hero. In other words, nothing is cemented and the most clever minds can overcome the shortcoming of your chosen hero.

Having elemental dispells, although a cool idea, would severely punish this.

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PostPosted: May 22nd, 2009, 11:37 pm 
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Btw, Casval, is your post in this thread specific to this thread, or also to mine as well?

In the future, please try to focus on the conclave threads over the common ones, if it applies to both (if it does here).

DarnYak


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PostPosted: May 22nd, 2009, 11:53 pm 
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It applies to both, so COPY-PASTE time!


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PostPosted: May 23rd, 2009, 10:13 am 
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Alright after reading the Conclave post I have some more comments.

I think the "elemental buff" system where most moves have the ability to dispell certain buffs is a good idea, but I do have a point of contention with it. This makes AoE heroes even stronger, in a game where AoE heroes tend to dominate. If AoE heroes all get some sudden dispel effects, there's no downside. It just makes them better in certain cases, which is something that they don't really need.

Another thing is the heroes who have Dispells now, are they going to be replaced with new moves? Fugly comes to mind, without his dispel, he has no AoE. His only dispel ability would perhaps be root. While possibly a great new way to counter the Shell/Icy/Fungal power creep it is still less then desired when confronted with HotM/Mass Hasted enemy spawns.

My last concern of the moment are "ward" type spells (AM's Cloud [Mind Fog?], Dryad's Ult, Divine Flame, Ebb). Would the new dispel system effect those moves? At the moment they are dispellable, and this can easily turn the tide of a battle. Without them being able to be dispel a sort "passive power creep" thing happens, one of their counters is no longer viable. Now something about this has to be decided I think when you think of the "elemental buff" system.

EDIT: Also yes Yak, I was typing the original post the same time as you :P


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PostPosted: May 23rd, 2009, 5:22 pm 
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I don't know, Leek, perhaps taking down a little bit of the damage from the AoE spells in order to balance out that dispel-ability? Also, they're talking about that elemental system; most AoE heroes that pop up off the top of my head, deal one consistent kind of damage with all their AoEs, or at least an argument could be made of that sort. So, as far as I can see, yes, ONE AoE hero might dominate against ONE other hero, but I don't see it as too terribly imbalancing, as the chances of those two heroes meeting is fairly small.

As for the current Dispels, something that might work is give it a straight (And relatively high) % chance across the board to dispel. Say fire > air > water > fire (I know that's not what Yak said, but it follows the idea.) Make the current Dispels equally effective against all of them? That way, a character with, say, all fire buffs would normally be weak to water spells, as they have a higher chance to dispel. With a generic dispel, perhaps he has a higher chance to dispel the water, yet it wouldn't be as effective as hitting something with an air debuff with a fire spell. Just a thought.

Also, if I may suggest on this buff system, that you color-code the element of the buff? (Assuming, of course, you go with the elemental dispel system). Would be nice to glance at and discern what I would need to do to get rid of it.

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