Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

An Aeon of Strife map for Warcraft 3
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 Post subject: Dispels
PostPosted: May 22nd, 2009, 7:54 pm 
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This is probably one of the biggest issues in EotA, so lets dispense with it first. We all know the dispel system and the balance regards to it is pretty shitty at the moments. Buffs are designed to be dispelled, otherwise there's no point in needing dispels. To be designed to be dispelled, it means their overly powerful when they aren't dispelled. And of course, when they are dispelled, buffs become meaningless. Its a very hard counter system. Sure, they can sometimes be dealt with without dispels, but overall the two are balanced around each other.

A long time ago, I posted a proposed overhaul of the system, involving buffs having their own health and crap. I've since realized such a system is overly complex and likely not going to do shit to address the problem.

So instead, I propose things:

1) All, or nearly all, buffs get designed under the assumption they will never be dispelled. This would, of course, result in a general nerfing of many buffs in the name, although arguabbly an increase in power due to their increased persistance

2) Everything becomes elemental in some form. Kindle Faith is a Fire buff. It gets dispelled by Cold spells like Frost Spire and Frigid Blast (or whatever i named Tyrant's aoe hold). No buff from one hero should share an element with another buff, thus if Kindle is Fire, then Radiance (backfire replacement) is Holy. Dispels, in some situations, may hit multiple types, but generally not.

3) Dispels will be converted to chance to dispel based on levels. A level 3 dispel against a level 6 buff has a 50% dispel chance.

4) Some buffs will be undispellable.

5) Rare buffs will be balanced to be dispelled, but will have more general vulnerability. Example would be Corona, Emberwraith's ult, it's currently functionally a buff that gets dispelled/interrupted by silence effects.

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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: May 22nd, 2009, 10:30 pm 
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How about something like this?
X level dispel will negate X levels of the buff. So if you have lvl 6 HOTM, and you cast a lvl 3 dispel, the units have a lvl 3 HOTM remaining.

Is that even codeable?


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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: May 22nd, 2009, 10:43 pm 
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Casval wrote:
Is that even codeable?


Technically yes, but only if you designed it that way from the start. Redoing it would be too much of a mess.

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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: May 22nd, 2009, 10:59 pm 
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The buff system wouldn't be so overly complex if you just all like...

Code:
struct unitData
   integer buff_data_index
endstruct

struct buffData
   integer buff_count
   buff which_buff[15]
   integer(or real) buff_life [15]
   boolean buff_vuln [15]
   string (or integer) buff_type [15]
endstruct


You could be all like...

Code:
...
   local unitData uD
   local buffData bD
   local integer i
   
   set uD = GetUnitUserData(unit)
   set bD = uD.buff_data_index
   loop
      exitwhen i > bD.buff_count
      if bD.buff_vuln[i] then
          set bD.buff_life[i] = bD.buff_life[i] - damage
          if bD.buff_life <= 0 then
              call RemoveBuff(bD.which_buff)
          endif
      endif
   endloop

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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: May 22nd, 2009, 11:01 pm 
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Yes, I understand how to impliment a system with buffs having thei own life. Its actually already in EotA. I just scraped it because its too complex to the player, not knowing how much life a buff has left, how many dispels it'll take, keeping track of the different life amounts different dispels have. Hell, I couldn't settle on what life ratings to give the various buffs and how to scale them with level.

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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: May 22nd, 2009, 11:16 pm 
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I had actually had a similar idea to Casvals before. But if I remember right, the only way to change levels of buffs is to replace them, which would replace their life timer or to not have that happen you'd have to track their time in, then you would have to set it so they get removed accordingly to their proper duration (which would require timers). -_-

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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: May 22nd, 2009, 11:59 pm 
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So, to copy-paste from a post I made in common area...

Quote:
In general I would caution against having "elemental" or categorical buff types. Not only would you need to know your own dispel characteristics (a simple matter, but one that would be lost on many players), but you'd need to know the characteristics of the buffs you're dispelling, which is a completely different matter.

Because EotA hero-picking is fairly translucent--there is a 90 second timer, and it doesn't show what heroes your enemy picks (in AP, you COULD deduce from cooldowns, but that's a huge pain), this makes the matter even more convoluted because it's impossible to pick counters, and if you happen to not have the correct dispel on your team, you're plain out of luck unless you want to dole out money for consumables.


A chance to be dispelled could potentially be frustrating and unintuitive, mainly because it creates an inherent imbalance between buffs and dispels--buffs will work 100% of the time, but dispels won't. Unless dispels cost little mana and have significantly shorter cooldowns compared to buffs, this has the chance to completely backfire in terms of effectiveness.

Perhaps wrote:
I had actually had a similar idea to Casvals before. But if I remember right, the only way to change levels of buffs is to replace them, which would replace their life timer or to not have that happen you'd have to track their time in, then you would have to set it so they get removed accordingly to their proper duration (which would require timers). -_-


A lot of buffs are more or less indefinite though, at this point. HotM lasts 70 seconds, though it's probably not a good example of the average buff. To sidestep the timer problem, you could just make all buffs indefinite, nerfing their other numbers in the meanwhile. This would make buffs ridiculously powerful, but also make dispels that much more necessary in your average game.


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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2009, 12:11 am 
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Quote:
Because EotA hero-picking is fairly translucent--there is a 90 second timer, and it doesn't show what heroes your enemy picks (in AP, you COULD deduce from cooldowns, but that's a huge pain), this makes the matter even more convoluted because it's impossible to pick counters, and if you happen to not have the correct dispel on your team, you're plain out of luck unless you want to dole out money for consumables.

This is what point #1 is about. If you have a counter, great use it. If you don't...well, its balanced to be able to deal with it. Most things in EotA are uncounterable. Buffs are heavilly counterable, and thus have like a 200% power rating under the assumption they'll be dispelled half the time, evening out to 100%. Under the revamp, they'd balance around 100%, maybe 110%. Dispels will be nice, but not necessary.

Quote:
A chance to be dispelled could potentially be frustrating and unintuitive, mainly because it creates an inherent imbalance between buffs and dispels--buffs will work 100% of the time, but dispels won't. Unless dispels cost little mana and have significantly shorter cooldowns compared to buffs, this has the chance to completely backfire in terms of effectiveness.

I didn't expressly say this, but it was implied. Pure dispels will be going away. Instead, current spells will be getting elemental dispel effects added to them. Thus, casting them might be for the purpose of dispelling, but it also may be for just general usage.

DarnYak


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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2009, 7:44 am 
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I like the elemental idea with the remove of pure dispel skills.

It means removing the ladder dispel system, but "Ice beats Fire" is a simple, yet elegant replacement that should be easy to understand and to use even without knowing details of the enemys skill.

The result would propably be more skills with dispel ability actively used, so the current buff strength can be kept.

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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2009, 10:18 am 
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As I was saying on Battle.net, I think the dispel system should be left how it is now. The only real problem are the heroes which are completely countered by a dispel (BP/IS come to mind). In my opinion it would be better to change those heroes so they don't get countered by a single spell rather than change the whole system. Also if you just change to being based on elements, a water hero will still be able to counter all of BP's moves, just as well as a fire hero will be able to counter all of IS's moves.


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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2009, 11:15 am 
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You could combine the elemental system with the % system. So fire 100% dispels ice, but mind might only do 30% or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2009, 12:41 pm 
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Quote:
Also if you just change to being based on elements, a water hero will still be able to counter all of BP's moves, just as well as a fire hero will be able to counter all of IS's moves.

Quote:
No buff from one hero should share an element with another buff

Further, its not necessarily set in stone that they'll be polar dispels. I'm currently leaning towards one set of elemental counters (fire>air>water>earth>fire), and one set of source powers (holy>demon>nature>death>holy), although that's far from finished (arcane spells in particular don't seem to have necessary proper place, nor do mind spells).
Quote:
This makes AoE heroes even stronger, in a game where AoE heroes tend to dominate. If AoE heroes all get some sudden dispel effects, there's no downside.

AoE's wouldn't necessarily being the ones getting most buffs. Odds are it'll be other buffs/debuff type moves.

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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2009, 1:27 pm 
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Well the thing is, EotA doesn't have a whole lot in the elemental department for dispels anyways. It's also an idea that's kind of beat to death. Also, elemental wouldn't make any sense for buffs that don't have a physical presence to be destroyed. I don't think I can agree with demon beating nature and nature beating death, unless it's simply for sake of balance. <_<

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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: July 12th, 2009, 2:23 am 
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The biggest problems I have with dispells at the moment are that its inconsistant and a lot of dispell related problems are ignored with "well im overhauling dispells soon anyway." For instance dispells only hitting certain sludge forms, reverse magic not working, rothwyn's stumps/tree/entangling root.

Theres also balance between the dispells. The elder treant is the clear winner in my opinion with heroes like the TC being infinitely worse. However since heroes are balanced as a whole and not on a spell to spell basis this isnt a large concern.

One solution that I would be happy with is keeping all the current dispells but making them dispells over time like a sort of totemless cleansing totem over a larger area. Then they would only affect so many units before they moved out of the area or the effect ended and you could even mess with the order in which it does things like heroes last, first, one buff from each unit before doing another and so forth. Bear in mind this would be a relatively short time on the oder of less than 5 seconds probably. Although you could have talents etc to make it longer or shorter if you wanted.


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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: July 12th, 2009, 2:58 am 
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Quote:
For instance dispells only hitting certain sludge forms, reverse magic not working, rothwyn's stumps/tree/entangling root.

While I understand your inconsitant arguement, i just want to point out roth's stuff is intentinally undispellable. Unlike skeles, plant stuff doesnt require magic to keep living. Oozes aren't suppose ot be dispellable at all, and fit under the same category. That said, i realize the current situation is bad. But as you noted, i've hated this system for a while, but it will get some sortof overhaul in 1.12e.

I should add that after i posted this thread, i got quite a bit of bitching from people on bnet about how bad/stupid of an idea elemental dispels were. So that idea may be scrapped as well - or I may just try to break things up into better categories but say fuck you all I'll do what i think is best (something i tryt o avoid but must be done sometimes). One re-categorization I'm leaning towards is breaking up summons and buffs into different dispel categories, among other things. Either way, I don't want it to be too complex, but not the current crappy system.

I want the current dispels gone though.

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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: July 12th, 2009, 12:28 pm 
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I mostly mentioned Rothwyn's stuff because I hate him beyond everything else in this world. Perhaps after the debuffs it wont be so bad but it is frustrating when it feels like there is just nothing you can do to stop his madness and hes summoning things and putting dots/stuns on people and almost any other hero would be dispellable.


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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: July 12th, 2009, 2:33 pm 
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My post is originally way too long so I cut and paste xD.

I actually agree with ToX in that at the moment the dispel system isn't so awful, and only a few heroes (BP***/IS) really get hammered when it comes to dispels and those heroes (mostly, if not almost entirely BP) need to be changed. You already have a semi-elemental system even with the current 'crappy' system, with summons getting damaged by dispels and buffs being completely removed. It's easy to remember and pretty universal, but some heroes with good buffs or poor BP who's all summons/buffs save his ult, get kind of screwed over if someone has a dispel or the other team gets screwed over if they don't.

Whether or not you do elements, something that I think would make buffs a lot less scary is to simply add a way to dispel many buffs without dispel itself. At the moment you've partitioned buffs into Physical and Magical ones and we can only dispel the Magical ones anyway (if you add more so be it). It might interesting to see if you used a Magical buff on a person and then they used a Magical nuke on them, there's a % chance the buff gets dispelled, or with stronger supposed-to-be-more-lasting-buffs (Defiler's ult for instance) it could give a % chance to weaken the buff. The same goes with physical buffs such as Hamstring, which could have an increasing % chance to dispel as the Fenris attacks his target (just an example, I know it's short and that's not realistic- perhaps Hamstring is just something people have to deal with).

Having buffs that also increase in power over time, like BP's future self-buff or something would encourage people to get dispels in this system but also rewards a character for avoiding a dispel for some time. Buffs that decrease with power over time would encourage people to cast their buff more often to maximize its effects before decay, and that might tone down some of the hate people feel towards buffs like HotM and Mass Speed when they're playing against these heroes, since they would have to be constantly using up their mana to simply keep their buff powerful.

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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: July 12th, 2009, 5:34 pm 
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Quote:
It might interesting to see if you used a Magical buff on a person and then they used a Magical nuke on them, there's a % chance the buff gets dispelled

This is mostly where i want to go with things. No more pure dispels, but spells which have a secondary dispel effect.

Quote:
You already have a semi-elemental system even with the current 'crappy' system, with summons getting damaged by dispels and buffs being completely removed.

I hardly see how this is semi-elemental.

Side note: Other than IS and BP, are any other heroes particularly screwed by dispels?

DarnYak


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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: July 12th, 2009, 8:01 pm 
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Gravel can be depending on his build, but seeing as HotM is p much his best spell im going to say yes. The upside is that it has a low cooldown and be competetive with dispells even at level 6 but if its something like treant dispell where a hoard of pixies will rape you then its devestating.


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 Post subject: Re: Dispels
PostPosted: July 13th, 2009, 12:05 am 
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Quote:
One re-categorization I'm leaning towards is breaking up summons and buffs into different dispel categories, among other things. Either way, I don't want it to be too complex, but not the current crappy system.


When I said "semi-elemental" I meant I had just mis-read the above quote and wanted to clarify that at the moment you have made a distinction between two different kinds of things that treated differently by dispels (summons and buffs) and I guess if you have a real stretch of imagination they're like elements :oops: (we need new emotes xD).

BP and IS are the only heroes who have 3/5+ skills that rely on buffs to work, so they're the only ones really killed by dispels. However, Mass Haste on AA, HotM/Crumble, Harpy (Backlash and Blind) are also effected and it can be frustrating to play these chars. At Level 5/6 dispel, it can be frustrating also to play an AM vs. someone who uses dispel on the banish, since it takes a good chunk out of the damage you deal to them. But no one is as significantly hit as BP is by dispels (and IS a bit after that).

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