Bugs, Typos & Lack-of-descriptions = The 'Please-Fix' Thread

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Bugs, Typos & Lack-of-descriptions = The 'Please-Fix' Thread

#1 Post by Setokaiva »

This is my new bugs report thread for the newer versions of EotA, since I've now found some people that like to play it (T.Dogg, StyleMatters_, khelmeth and they're all on East), I will list them as I find the time and patience to do so here.

Changelog:
08/18/14 - Began list. Added Sorrow Liege, Ascendant, and Arboreal Crusader to Tooltips
08/19/14 - Added Forlorn Martyr to Tooltips

Tooltips

EotA v1.17b
- Sorrow Liege, Take Charge: It says: "The nearest (3 + 0.2 x Level) allied units will follow the Hero's commands for 30 seconds." Actually, this is misleading. When first read, it can be assumed that control over those units is literally given to the caster and allows him to directly control them as if they were his own units; however, what really happens is that those units simply mimic his move/attack commands, etc. The Hero cannot control them or make them cast spells; they are still acting on their own, and will not grant gold to the Hero if they kill enemy units, etc. Also, 'the nearest' allied units? How near are we talking, here? Maybe you should mention the area of effect that this skill works in.
- Sorrow Liege, Royal Guard: The description for his Royal Guard ability is sadly quite lacking; Royal Guards have Hero-type armor and damage, receive bonuses when Weapon and Armor upgrades are researched at the Sorrow Liege's altar, learn the Bash ability at Level 2, Resolute (Damage Block) at Level 3, Vigilance at Level 4, etc., but none of that information is stated on the ability description at all. Also, when I moused over the tooltip for Royal Guards when using group-selection, it reads: "Light melee unit with Immolation." I understand that it's more of a filler thing, but that should be changed to something like: "Resilient melee unit (with X ability, if at a certain level). Takes a percentage of damage directed to the Sorrow Liege upon itself. Cannot venture X range from the Sorrow Liege." Oh yeah, on that note, you should probably also mention that Royal Guards can't move beyond a certain point from their controller, otherwise they'll be teleported straight back to him. One more thing: when Royal Guards are at Level 5, they get the Martyr ability, which kills the Royal Guard using it and teleports the Hero to its position. It doesn't say how far away this can be used from the Hero. This is a big problem, because I tried using it at the maximum tether range (how far they can go before being teleported back) from the Hero and it failed to work. Please fix.
Suggested New Ability - Unsummon/Release: I've been having problems with newly-summoned Royal Guards dying the second they're raised from a corpse, when they should be taking the place of older Royal Guards. To circumvent this, I suggest that you give them a new ability that, when used, instantly (or after a few seconds) kills them, thus freeing up space for new, fresh Royal Guards.
- Sorrow Liege, Shadow Bastion: His Shadow Bastion ability description does not say how long it takes to summon in the flying fortress, and it also doesn't say that the Shadow Bastion itself is invulnerable while it is being summoned (though this isn't as big of a deal as the channeling time). It also doesn't mention that the Shadow Bastion has a Spirit Tower-like ranged turret mounted on it, let alone how much damage it deals, at what attack speed, and at what range. That's a pretty big deal, so that should be fixed ASAP. One more thing: the description for the Shadow Bastion ability doesn't mention how much HP it has, at any level. It also doesn't say anything about how it can Load up to 8 friendly units, including the Hero. That, especially, is a VERY big deal, so it could use a fix.
- Sorrow Liege, Despair: It doesn't mention the exact area of effect this spell covers. Not sure if this is somehow intentional or no, but I thought I'd point it out.

- Ascendant, Sentinel: First off, isn't this kind of a name conflict with Arboreal Crusader's Sentinel ability? Maybe you should rename Dryad's Sentinel to Sentry, or something. Anyways, from what I can see, Plight's Sentinel ability does say that it 'drops units from a great height', but it doesn't say exactly how much damage it does, or what happens while the gargoyles are carrying enemy units; it might be worthwhile to know exactly how long they are kept in the air before being dropped down. I also noticed that the gargoyles gain extra maximum health somehow, either when Plight gains more strength or when he gains a level, but the description doesn't mention this, either.
- Ascendant, Terra Smash: It doesn't mention the range at which this ability works, or its cooldown time. It also doesn't say that it can destroy trees. The current description for the ability also cuts off; there is no punctuation mark, like a period, at the end of it: "...slows movement speed by 30%, lasts 6 seconds". Please fix.

- Forlorn Martyr, Recharge/Static Charge: It says that it restores health when used, but it doesn't say how much. The amount clearly scales up as the hero gains levels or maximum HP, but I can't tell which one. It would be helpful to people to know just how much Recharge can heal at maximum, or deal damage to an enemy hero when they get attacked.
- Forlorn Martyr, Stormspire: There is no explanation as to what the Stormspires use their mana for, how they regain it, or any of that. I notice that they apparently charge up and deal damage to nearby enemies via lightning strikes whenever a spell is cast near them, but there is no mention of this, let alone damage values. This is a big deal and should be fixed ASAP.

- Arboreal Crusader, Sentinel: It doesn't mention the sight range of the owls produced by the skill, the cooldown time until another one is ready, or the cast range (though that is less important).
- Arboreal Crusader, Gale: It doesn't mention the length of the 'line' that Gale affects, how far it goes before it stops, or the cooldown time of the spell.
- Arboreal Crusader, Tangleweed: It doesn't mention the timed life duration of the Tangleweed ward, or its area of effect when the trap is triggered. It also doesn't mention the cooldown time of the Tangleweed spell itself. You also might want to include in the description the fact that a triggered Tangleweed trap destroys all other Tangleweeds in its area of effect, so the user should avoid putting them too close together.
- Arboreal Crusader, Cure Wounds: It doesn't mention anything about the cooldown time of the spell, which I'm assuming is the big deal with putting skill points into it because adding ranks doesn't increase healing. It also doesn't display the casting range.
- Arboreal Crusader, Geomancy: Not a single one of the spells in this rather expansive list mentions how long the cooldown is until you can use another Geomancy spell (at least from what I've seen). Also, the Raging Tides (Water Elemental) spell lacks information about the health, damage, etc. of the Water Elemental being summoned. The Forestwalk spell (the one used when standing on leaves) doesn't mention the fact that it's not just invisibility, but a full-blown Wind Walk, which enables the Arboreal Crusader to walk right through enemy units -- this should be explained immediately (note that my findings with that spell are based on the Level 6 version of Geomancy; I'm not sure if weaker versions of it do the same thing or not).
- Arboreal Crusader, Force of Nature: It doesn't mention the cooldown, casting range, or distance at which the Wisp will begin to track enemies (which is a very important point).

- Blazing Priest, Firestorm: It just gives a flat damage value without mentioning modifiers from attributes or anything of the sort; ex. 145 damage per second at Level 4, but it shows up as 166 per second in the Spells list (-s).
Last edited by Setokaiva on August 19th, 2014, 7:07 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Bugs, Typos & Lack-of-descriptions = The 'Please-Fix' Th

#2 Post by Setokaiva »

Bump. I'm going to be filling this thread up with all kinds of goody goody fixes, because EotA: Twilight as it stands now is LOADED with things that could be changed and/or optimized. THERE ARE NO BRAKES ON THE FIXEY TRAIN!
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Re: Bugs, Typos & Lack-of-descriptions = The 'Please-Fix' Th

#3 Post by DarnYak »

Dear god I hate you. I also have no idea how much of this post is new vs 2 years old.

Be forewarned I'll fix whatever can easily/quickly be fixed, but my focus is really on EotA2 not EotA1 so the updates are minimal and far in between. Expanding on tooltips significantly isn't going to happen. You mention ranges a lot, those were intentionally left out from the start of EotA because I felt they aren't very helpful aside from a vague idea of short, medium, or long range. I'm certainly not going to go back and update every tooltip to add them.

You should probably separate out suggested tooltip changes and bugs you find btw, bugs are much higher priority.
Also, when I moused over the tooltip for Royal Guards when using group-selection, it reads: "Light melee unit with Immolation." I understand that it's more of a filler thing
I had no idea that feature even existed.
- Sorrow Liege, Talents - Panic & Paralyzing Fear: I noticed two talents relating to the Despair spell in Sorrow Liege's Talents list, but they both do roughly the same thing; Panic reduces the movement speed of affected enemies by 40, and Paralyzing Fear by 50. At least, that's what their descriptions say. Panic costs 3 crystal, and Paralyzing Fear costs 9... why do you have two talents that do the same thing? If one talent is supposed to increase movespeed and the other to decrease it, why not simply have it so when the Hero takes one, the other cannot be researched anymore? Otherwise, they seem to cancel each other out.
Read more closely, one applies to heroes and the other applies to units. The idea being units will run away faster and thus thin them out more / for longer, whereas heroes are snared and more vulnerable.

DarnYak

PS. I really hate writing tooltips in wc3 ;P

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Re: Bugs, Typos & Lack-of-descriptions = The 'Please-Fix' Th

#4 Post by Setokaiva »

Oh, ok, gotcha. I'll focus on the tooltip and description bits that are actually a significant issue, and look for legitimate bugs, as well. So far, I haven't found any real bugs, which is good. The biggest lack of information so far came from Sorrow Liege's Royal Guards; they've been crying for that change for a while, now.

P.S: If you really hate doing tooltips and descriptions so much, you know I could just dive into your map and do them for you; I'm good with things like that. Just thought I'd put that offer out there. My E-Mail is authorityblade@gmail.com if you decide yes.

P.P.S: No idea? Dude, 1.17b is the latest version that you just released, like, a couple days ago, so naturally this information would be current for that version. I marked the top of the list 'EotA 1.17b' to reflect this.

P.P.P.S: I removed the one about Druids and Invigorate at the top of the list to make things clearer.
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Re: Bugs, Typos & Lack-of-descriptions = The 'Please-Fix' Th

#5 Post by DarnYak »

Setokaiva wrote:.P.S: No idea? Dude, 1.17b is the latest version that you just released, like, a couple days ago, so naturally this information would be current for that version. I marked the top of the list 'EotA 1.17b' to reflect this.
At the very top, it says "Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 ". I was referring to the fact that I don't know how much was a new edit vs older stuff you kept in, since I don't remember the contents of a 2 year old post.

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Re: Bugs, Typos & Lack-of-descriptions = The 'Please-Fix' Th

#6 Post by Setokaiva »

Soooo.... is there any chance that you could send me a de-protected copy of this map so that I can fix your tooltips for you? :D I'm serious. I'm so excited about that possible job that I keep coming back and wondering about it. Give me a couple days with it and I'll have virtually everything fixed up and with proper details, so you won't have to burden yourself with all that tedious stuff, and I won't need to keep submitting tooltips to this thread. Please? Pretty please with sugar lumps on top? And a cherry? ^^
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Re: Bugs, Typos & Lack-of-descriptions = The 'Please-Fix' Th

#7 Post by DarnYak »

Jesus, relax, I'm still deciding.

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Re: Bugs, Typos & Lack-of-descriptions = The 'Please-Fix' Th

#8 Post by Setokaiva »

'Relax'? I know, but c'mon, man, it's been well over a week... I've been more excited about doing these sweeping tooltip fixes than I have about anything else for the past two weeks or so, and I've been checking my PMs and E-Mail for updates every single day. I understand that EotA: Twilight is your baby and that you're wary of handing it over to anyone, and I respect that completely -- and I also realize there may be some other things I'm missing, as well, but can't see yet. But please, I would appreciate at least some kind of estimate as to when I could expect an answer. I hope I'm not coming across as too desperate or annoying or anything... I'm just really excited about this since it's one of my favorite maps, and I LOVE this sort of work. I guarantee you that I will have every tooltip and unit/item description in that thing fixed within a week, probably less, and you'll have a system that is far more accessible, detailed, and easy to understand on a practical level. Profit! $$$

So... pretty pretty pretty pretty please with marshmallows and sprinkles? ^^
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Re: Bugs, Typos & Lack-of-descriptions = The 'Please-Fix' Th

#9 Post by DarnYak »

I've been more excited about doing these sweeping tooltip fixes than I have about anything else for the past two weeks or so, and I've been checking my PMs and E-Mail for updates every single day.
I hope I'm not coming across as too desperate or annoying or anything
I'm not trying to be mean, but more like mentally ill. Like it or not, its an old map that nobody plays with no future (because wc3 itself has no future). And the few people that do play it don't need this information in tooltips.

But if you want to spend your time like this, who am I to decide for you?

So here's my concern and what I'd want from you first. The primary purpose of tooltips is to quickly convey what the skill does to a player who doesn't already know. Putting too much information in them can quickly burden and confuse a new player. I'm very concerned you're going to take things to the extreme of making sure every nuance of every ability is listed in the tooltips. So lets do a trial run like this: Pick 3 heroes, and show me what you want to do with their tooltips (actual examples of the re-writes). Values can be made up these are just examples.

Also technical details to remember: A lot of values are buried in the trigger code which isn't the easiest to parse. I don't want to have to spend any time explaining where to find random values. In addition, each of the tooltips have to be written per each level since the values change and EotA goes way beyond the auto tooltip values support wc3 provides.

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Re: Bugs, Typos & Lack-of-descriptions = The 'Please-Fix' Th

#10 Post by Setokaiva »

More complicated for newer players? DarnYak, I'm trying to make it less difficult for newer players to adapt. Your current system is complicated because of the lack of information in many aspects of the game that leads new people to do a lot of guesswork when it comes to using their hero abilities, and numerous other aspects. You may mention Tower Cores in the tooltip for the Obelisk Control Tower item, but you don't even have a team-wide message displayed when the first Tower Core is produced, telling people (or just the noobs) that they can use it to build a Spawn Tower. EotA: Twilight is complicated enough as it is, but when it comes to critical aspects of the game like this, you rely FAR too much on individual trial and error and other players in the game giving out help and advice. People don't usually think too hard about the deeper aspects of the game when they first start playing because they're too busy figuring out their hero and fighting in lanes to even worry about counters and strategy, so they need to have as streamlined and effective of a help system as possible to guide them through things. Otherwise, you risk alienating newcomers to the game because of the apparently insane level of complexity, with pros and veterans already knowing all the critical game mechanics, and the noobs possibly leaving because they don't know how to gain an edge and no one is willing to teach them.

But I'm ranting, here, and things like telling players when a Tower Core is available is a trigger-type thing which is up to you. I'm more focused on doing what I can, right now, with regards to tooltips and information that I feel is necessary to be displayed for heroes, items, and various units. 'Quickly convey what the skill does...'? For crying out loud, you don't even mention that the Sorrow Liege's Forlorn Bastion has an automatic spirit tower for defense. Don't you think you're being a little too quick and concise with your explanations?

But hey, you've asked for examples, so here's the few that I've made so far on short notice. More will be coming, later; this is just an idea of what I want to do, like you asked for. I've separated the tooltip(s) here from "Current text" and "Changed text" and put them in quotes so you know which one is the original and which I want to make changes on, then included comments below.

Changelog:
08/28/14 - Added Arcane Mistress: Raise & Aura of Undeath.
08/28/14 - Added Arcane Archer: Familiar.
08/29/14 - Added Sorrow Liege: Royal Guard.
08/30/14 - Added the 4 summoning items from the Goblin Merchant.

(Note: the following information/tooltip(s) is current for EotA: Twilight v 1.17b2.)

Arcane Mistress

Innate - Raise
Current text:
Necromancy
Summons (2 + Level / 6) Skeleton Warriors.
Passive Aura of Undeath: Units who decay near the hero have a 20% chance to automaticly be risen as a Skeletal Warrior.
Changed text:
Necromancy
Summons (2 + Level / 6) Skeleton Warriors in a target area; does not require corpses. X cast range, X cooldown.
Passive Aura of Undeath: Units who decay within a X range radius of the hero have a 20% chance to automatically be risen as a Skeletal Warrior.
Skeletons last X seconds. Unless the Necromastery talent is researched, Skeleton Warriors created either by the active or passive form of this ability cannot be directly controlled by the hero, and will behave as regular AI units.

Skeleton Warrior
Hit Points: 280
Armor Type: Heavy
Armor: 1
Damage Type: Normal
Damage: 18-20
Attack Speed: ???
Abilities: Spell Immunity
(Since anyone who has played Warcraft 3 in Melee probably knows that Necromancers need corpses to create Skeleton Warriors, they will likely assume that when this skill says 'Summons X Skeleton Warriors', that it requires corpses to work. I made that exact mistake a number of times before I realized that no corpses were being consumed when I cast Raise, so I consider it essential that anyone playing Arcane Mistress now knows this part of the skill. As for the Aura of Undeath, I would have the text show the radius that it covers so that people know exactly how far back behind their melee line they can stand and shoot and still get that chance to make Skeleton Warriors. Not to mention fix that misspelling. I would also make it VERY clear to people that they CANNOT directly command these summons without the right talent, so that they don't get disappointed when their plan to creep-block enemy heroes with these things falls through as a result. I would also include a description of the Skeleton Warriors' capabilities, including the VERY interesting fact that they have spell immunity, which wasn't mentioned ANYWHERE in the infocard before, and would be impossible to know without researching Necromastery.)

Arcane Archer

Familiar
Current text:
Conjuration
Summons the hero's familiar. The hero and the familiar are linked, so if the hero dies so does the familiar, and if the familiar dies the hero takes damage.
Changed text:
Conjuration
Summons the hero's familiar. The hero and the familiar are linked, so if the hero dies so does the familiar, and if the familiar dies the hero takes X damage.

Higher levels of this ability increase the Familiar's armor, and give it access to new abilities.
Level 1: Blink - Allows the Familiar to teleport back to the hero if they are separated beyond X range.
Level 2: (???)
Level 3: Faerie Fire - Reduces armor of a unit/hero by X and grants vision of the target. Lasts X seconds.
Level 4: Entangle - Immobilizes a hero for X seconds, dealing X damage per second.
Level 5: Feedback - Burns X mana per attack and deals damage equal to the amount burned.
Level 6: Starfall - Deals X damage per second to all enemy units in X range. Lasts X seconds.
(This is another one I found that really needed some love. Firstly, the original tooltip mentions that the hero takes damage if the familiar dies, but it does not say how much. That'd be a very helpful tidbit to know. Secondly, nowhere, not in the hero skill screen or command card, does it mention ANYTHING about the Familiar gaining the ability to ENTANGLE an enemy hero, or cast STARFALL on entire armies for massive damage. That kind of information is something people will WANT to know in order to plan their hero build properly, because you can't refund skill points in this game.)

Sorrow Liege

Royal Guard
Current text:
Conjuration
Summons a Royal Guard, which diverts damage taken by the Hero to itself. Diverts X% of damage from heroes or X% of damage from non-heroes. Can have up to 4 at once.
Changed text:
Conjuration
Summons a Royal Guard from a corpse, which diverts damage taken by the hero to itself. Diverts X% of damage from heroes or X% of damage from non-heroes. Can have up to 4 at once. X cast range, X cooldown.

Royal Guards have Hero-type damage and armor, and gain bonuses from weapon/armor upgrades purchased by the hero at his altar.
Higher levels of this ability increase the stats of Royal Guards, and grant them access to new abilities.
Level 1: Recall (Unit will automatically teleport back to the hero if they are separated beyond X range)
Level 2: Bash (5% chance, 15 damage, 1.5 second stun)
Level 3: Resolute (40% chance to reduce attacks by 15 damage)
Level 4: Vigilance (Reveals nearby invisible units within X range)
Level 5: Martyr (Sacrifices this unit and teleports the hero to its position)
Level 6: Gallantry (Reduces magic and spell damage to 60%)
(The problems with this one were quite obvious. Firstly, it was not mentioned that Royal Guards required a corpse to be summoned, which is a fairly important point. Also, I made sure to include the fact that researching weapon and armor upgrades at the altar would increase their stats accordingly, and I made DAMN sure to list the abilities gained by level. I will admit that it may be cleaner to simply include this information in the description of the ability when viewing it from the Hero Skill Points screen, and then simply state the abilities they possess one-by-one on the ability itself as it increases in level, but in any case, that information should definitely be shown somewhere.)

Items, summoning

Enchanted Shell

Current text:
Summons a Sea Elemental.
Changed text:
Summons a Sea Elemental. After making X number of attacks, a new Sea Elemental is permanently created next to the original. Sea Elementals are permanent until killed.

Hit Points: 800
Armor Type: Heavy
Armor: 6
Damage Type: Piercing
Damage: 27-32
Attack Speed: ???
Range: 500
Serpent Ward

Current text:
Summons a Serpent Ward.
Changed text:
Summons a Serpent Ward at a target location. The ward is permanent until destroyed.

Hit Points: 300
Armor Type: Medium
Armor: 0
Damage Type: Piercing
Damage: 31-33
Attack Speed: ???
Range: 500
Wretched Skull

Current text:
Summons 5 Wretched Skeleton Warriors and 3 Wretched Skeleton Archers to fight for you.
Changed text:
Summons 5 Wretched Skeleton Warriors and 3 Wretched Skeleton Archers to fight for you. These summons are permanent until killed.

Wretched Skeleton Warrior
Hit Points: 710
Armor Type: Heavy
Armor: 8
Damage Type: Normal
Damage: 13-15
Attack Speed: ???
Abilities: Disease Cloud

Wretched Skeleton Archer
Hit Points: 560
Armor Type: Medium
Armor: 3
Damage Type: Piercing
Damage: 16-26
Attack Speed: ???
Range: 500
Abilities: Envenomed Weapons, Disease Cloud
Bottle of Ooze

Current text:
Summons a Sludge Monstrosity
Changed text:
Summons a Sludge Monstrosity. This unit will split into 3 Sludge Flingers upon death, which will further split into more units when slain. These split units count as summoned units and take appropriate damage from dispels. The Sludge Monstrosity and all split units are permanent until killed.

Hit Points: 1420
Armor Type: Medium
Armor: 3
Damage Type: Piercing
Damage: 64-72
Attack Speed: ???
Range: 500
Abilities: Split (3) upon death
(I know you said you wanted heroes, but since I got the 3 you asked for already, I felt I should point out some GLARING problems with the items that summon units that you can buy at the Goblin Merchant in every map. You don't give ANY information on them aside from 'Summons X', but some of the units have some really important abilities that NEED to be shown. Sea Elementals can split into more units like the Firelord's Lava Spawns, and Sludge Monstrosity can split when it dies, but none of that was shown -- I had to figure that out on my own after running with Sea Elementals as a Dread Shaman. Also, since people are going to be paying good money to buy these things, I think they would want to at least know the stats (armor, damage, etc.) of the units they're going to summon beforehand! Once summoned, that gold can't be refunded, and people can wind up disappointed if they don't get what they were hoping for. So there you go.)

There. Is that clear, clean and concise enough for you, without being too complicated for people to understand?
Last edited by Setokaiva on March 27th, 2015, 2:29 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Bugs, Typos & Lack-of-descriptions = The 'Please-Fix' Th

#11 Post by Jouven »

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I'm with Setokaiva in this subject, I want to show that I support his cause.

Even for me, EotA makes me guess quite often e.g: lots of skill ranges, durations and CDs.
I know comparisons are odious but ROW skill tool tips do it really well IMO and I haven't seen anyone complaining about that, so please go and ask Softmints advice and the templates, ask him if his player-base whine about feeling burdened and confused about them.
Yak wrote:Putting too much information in them can quickly burden and confuse a new player. I'm very concerned you're going to take things to the extreme of making sure every nuance of every ability is listed in the tooltips.
Describing skill and their values can burden and confuse someone? more than omitting them? sorry but WTF!? I think the mindset you are describing here is the wrong one. I really don't see the problem here, we are discussing tooltips, it's not like you are spamming the information to the player constantly.

War3 might have "no future", I don't think so, but it can't die because of the bots and the pvpng servers, so it doesn't matter if the official servers do die. As I said many times before EotA has no current alternative until you finish EotA2, but still that is yet to happen.
Sorry for the following tangent, I don't think war3 will die, or at least, not more than it has, because of how Activision-Blizzard released their last games AKA from the wow third expansion till now, the bnet2 era. I think SC2 will die first if they don't change things... and I'll stop here with this rant.

After checking Setokaiva tool tips examples, they are what I always dreamed to have in EotA. Being nit-picky... maybe some redundancy saying that something happens automatically on a "Passive skill" but it's not sever anyway and the original tool tip suffers from it so w/e.

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