Is anyone still actually evil?

Discuss the lore of the EotA world.

Postby DarnYak » August 24th, 2006, 2:34 pm

More short comments (missed a few posts the first time + new ones):

Bhekar Ro is not the leader of the BP's, nor is he an evil zealot. He's a middle aged wise-ish person - pretty close to your ideal cleric type person. The whole BP organization generaly isn't seen as evil (except for one major questionable thing I dont want to get into yet). As for the real BP leader, he's actualy killed by the UD, but Bhekar doesn't know that yet.

Regarding the United Creeps, why does Colossus not bring on an army of mountain giants to help him fight Therivox. If he's just one living on whatever place Therivox found him sure I can understand, but what really gets me is, why just him?


There's more (although not many), he's just basicly their champion (sorta, you don't get much combat in mountains with noone around, so he just fought off something major once). Some other ones would technicly fight with him, but there's no other graphics to use to make it not be confusing to players. Nor would there be enough to qualify as a nearly endless supply of them (they'd go extinct if you made like 5 spawn towes). And, of course, there's plenty of spawns already.

And, to clarify, Stormwail isn't the Colossi's home. Its nearby, but not there. As for why they allied with Therivox - everyone seems to have forgotten its called Eve of the APOCALPYSE. The world is going to end, they lack power to save themselves, so they took the only one who bothered to ask them, who happened to be Therivox. I've said this before, if the elves had bothered to ask them they'd much rather be on the elvish side (they get in fights with various creep types fairly often since they live nearby).

And what about Therivox. Does he have a dragon's brood, or is he himself simply one fat-ass dragon with a bunch of croonies doing his dirty-work. Because Bane's a dragon, with legs and a spear.


He's a full fledged dragon..didn't you notice him in Exodus? Bane's a dragon-SPAWN...some sort of half offspring that only extremely powerful dragons can create through special means. A more interesting question is where do the spawn eggs come from =P

Yak, is Xeldarith insane? or is that just me?


Xel wants to do the right thing, but he's also got an extremely destructive nature. You can argue he's good due to wanting to promote goodness in the world, however you can argue he's evil because usualy the punishment is far disproportional to any crime. (I guess he's kinda like Isreal)

Arboreal Crusader = Good


She's fighting and killing elves to protect trees, is this really so clear?

Soul Binder = Evil


The elves consider toying with souls like he does to be evil (or anything dealing with death/afterlife - even ressurect spells). His actions, beyond that, aren't evil. The worst that can really be said of him is he's very..bitter at how the elves treat him and his breathren when they all fight for the protection of the elves. I dont think this warrents such a clearcut definition of evil.

Treant is full of revenge for the Elves creating minor Treants, evil? Neutral?


See my point on colossus being with the creeps. Beyond that, he wouldn't bother with revenge on elves for the mini-treants, but he does severely dispise them. Its more accurate to describe elvish treants as wood elementals then treants - taunting treant for example is fundimentally different from elvish treants.

By the way, Ascendant is just a machine created for war, right?


Yup

Fugly, he's probably the oldest person in Eota (cept maybe therivox? or a couple of nobody demons).


Most demons are older acutaly, Deinnov definatly is. Demons are more or less immortal unless destroyed through special means, and even then they just get semi-reincarnated.

BTW: Whats the story with the AM+AA thing anyway?


Basicly, both sisters were very talanted, but AM was always a bit better, and would never settle for 2nd place (AA, naturaly, always resented this). Title wise, AM is basicly a step up in power after AA. AM ended up falling in love with a guy, except said guy loved AA instead. AM started tormenting AA out of revenge, AA attacked AM in retribution, AM natrualy fought back, AA ended up (unintentionaly) using lethal force.

AM was natrually pissed. Part of her job was to help fight off the UD, which for the AM's involved significant studies of necromancy, which let her figure out how to come back as UD, but completely independant of the Grim Brigade.

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Postby mianmian » August 24th, 2006, 3:02 pm

SB is evil!!

Ok, thanks H4m

So, AA is evil? :p
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Postby Ocean.dll » August 24th, 2006, 4:14 pm

Cool. Thanks Yak.

I think the SB description will satisfy Ham at least.
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Postby Hammel » August 25th, 2006, 7:02 am

SB is evil towards the Elves because of his powers, not his actions, so you are wrong, mian ;)

By his actions (helping the Elves although he doesn't really have to, he could join the UD as well with his powers), he can be anything... depends on how much background info Yak gives in future times.

I like to think of him as an expelled among his own kind who does anything to show that he isn't THAT bad. Bitterness is a part of that since noone else seems to appreciate his help (as you can see in how the clan members think of him ;))

AA isnt necessarily evil, either, because she killed her sister through a mistake (unintentionally usef lethal force - Yak)

Btw, thanks for the info on the demon nature... I was wondering about what would happen when they get killed in battle.

Btw, what happens to them after the Apocalypse? Will they just keep on spawning and dieing immediatelly (by flames or whatever is on the new world)? Would be some kind idea of hell imo...

Ohh, and what about Ivar's true power? He isnt as strong as Deinnov for sure, but I suppose he is more powerful than most mortals (he wants to challenge Deinnov with the help of the UD). Is he comparable to the "real" Bane?

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Postby Ocean.dll » August 25th, 2006, 8:15 am

Actually, the SB really reminds me of the Dark Templar of Starcraft from Yak's description. And this really turns around what I thought about the Archers. I always looked at the AM as the good one of the two, if you could call her that, cause I thought she was murdered essentially in cold blood. I guess the Arcane Archer is in Exodus too, if she and the Ranger General are in fact the same person.
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Postby Ion » August 25th, 2006, 11:54 am

I've always seen the Soul Binder as a bitter black-sheep, misunderstood and segregated by his own kind, so he's become somewhat cynical, pessimistic and generally angry at everything.

According to Xeldarith's description, he's a priest who uses his powers to "smite evil". Does that really mean he's a good priest? Or is he mearly a power-hungry twat who goes around calling on the power of god to beat the shit out of anyone who opposes him. I've never actually seen him as one of the good guys in EotA, but Yak (and whomever else give your thoughts on this), it'd be interesting to see if you really meant that literally or is that the kind of shit the church would stick on a "Xeldarith is your Saviour" pamphlet.

Also, you told us about Therivox and Bane and such, and it would make sense that Bane would be a dragon spawn. But like you said, where the hell do dragon spawn come from? Do they come from Therivox? Is he actually a she and a female dragon who spawns her own, or has he got (or had) a mate.

And, if dragonspawn come from dragons, then why haven't we seen ANY dragon spawn in the entire game? ('cept maybe Blue Drakes, but I was always under the impression that Therivox was infact a Black Dragon). I mean, we've been all across the world, wouldn't it make sense for Therivox to be pumping out little banes everywhere, showing them the ways of war?

Why do the Elves accept the Mystic Swashbuckler into their ranks? He's a diseased, leper-looking sort of fellow. They hate Soul Binders, they absolutely despise Therivox and his dragonspawn, and I'm guessing they're not too fond of the Trolls or the Furbolgs either, why let him into their ranks? He's a mercenary up for hire yes, but wouldn't they be better off just tossing him away? I mean, if you had a choice between sending out a happy little invitation to the Colossi or to a diseased-leper who's interests in battle go only as far as to cure himself, why would you choose to hire the latter?

Last question is, who was the AM/AA's lover? Was he a commoner, a politican, is he still fighting against the Elves, possibly even in EotA? I mean what squabble over a guy could've bridged the mutual animosity and eventual self-ressurection of the AM to avenge her own death?

Possibly, both the AA and her ex-lover in the same boat? Spill the beans ^^
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Postby DarnYak » August 25th, 2006, 1:01 pm

Btw, what happens to them after the Apocalypse? Will they just keep on spawning and dieing immediatelly (by flames or whatever is on the new world)? Would be some kind idea of hell imo...


Space paladins come along and save them. That is, the evil paladins that got their paladin powers throught theft.

No, really, this would qualify for special means of death.

Ohh, and what about Ivar's true power? He isnt as strong as Deinnov for sure, but I suppose he is more powerful than most mortals (he wants to challenge Deinnov with the help of the UD). Is he comparable to the "real" Bane?


Ivar's around a middle rank power demon. Like I said, EVERY demon WANTS to challange Deinnov, but most don't have the means. Ivan thinks the undead will lead him to this power, thus he's taking that route at the moment.

I guess the Arcane Archer is in Exodus too, if she and the Ranger General are in fact the same person.


Similar name, same model, but different people. The heroes that managed to survive and make it to exodus (there aren't many) end up defending one of the other gates (the entire castle is surrounded, exodus is only one front of the battle - if eota ever gets maps in the future you can probably expect aconcurrent to exodus one)

According to Xeldarith's description, he's a priest who uses his powers to "smite evil". Does that really mean he's a good priest? Or is he mearly a power-hungry twat who goes around calling on the power of god to beat the shit out of anyone who opposes him. I've never actually seen him as one of the good guys in EotA, but Yak (and whomever else give your thoughts on this), it'd be interesting to see if you really meant that literally or is that the kind of shit the church would stick on a "Xeldarith is your Saviour" pamphlet.


My previous post covered this, i think?

And, if dragonspawn come from dragons, then why haven't we seen ANY dragon spawn in the entire game?


Making dragonspawn isn't easy, and as I said only a limited number of dragons can do it. Their suppose to be pretty rare, elite units. There's probably less then a thousand in the entire world.

Why do the Elves accept the Mystic Swashbuckler into their ranks?


He's an elf for one, and elves tend to watch out for each other. Second, he's fairly well known, as he's traveled a ton and obviously sticks out. Third, his primary concern is himself, but he's not a bad guy. They have no reason to turn him down.

Last question is, who was the AM/AA's lover?


Some elf still back at home. Haven't worked out details on who, but if I ever take the EotA story somewhere I'll obviously need to =P He can't appear at stormwail for sure, that would cause some fundimental problems in the outcome.

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Postby mianmian » August 25th, 2006, 1:56 pm

Space paladins come along and save them. That is, the evil paladins that got their paladin powers throught theft.


When do they become mercanaries? :P



Ivar's around a middle rank power demon. Like I said, EVERY demon WANTS to challange Deinnov, but most don't have the means. Ivan thinks the undead will lead him to this power, thus he's taking that route at the moment.


Ok... So, Middle rank = hero type along the [lines of insert Eota hero]

And Deinnov is the strongest Demon in existance? he gets wtfpwnd by like 6 heroes and a small army. Mind you, it does include the Royal Gyrocopter Armada... but still :p
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Postby Hammel » August 25th, 2006, 2:59 pm

I somehow cannot believe a normal undead (Halo) is more powerful that the uber-pawnzor demon... still: Exodus has been balanced for gameplay purposes. Don't think of the units as single units but more as... little squadrons. I mean it is a large part of the Elven/Human/other army fighting there, and those few units you see...

Under this circumstances, the army isnt THAT small anymore. And large parts still get owned.

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Postby DarnYak » August 25th, 2006, 5:43 pm

mianmian wrote:And Deinnov is the strongest Demon in existance? he gets wtfpwnd by like 6 heroes and a small army. Mind you, it does include the Royal Gyrocopter Armada... but still :p


Not in existance, but on this world yes.

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Postby mianmian » August 25th, 2006, 8:34 pm

Whos the strongest in the ever then?

Also, why is the Apocalypse happening...?
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Postby Ion » August 26th, 2006, 1:07 am

Where the fuck is Therivox stationed? It'd make complete sense for him not to be at Stormwail (because going there was basically sort of just a wild guess, they didn't really know they'd find the Artifact). But assuming he found out, and assuming he was stationed elsewhere, wouldn't he pull his own army out and focus on securing that artifact?

I mean:

A) Where was he first? Where'd he station himself?

B) If he's not on Stormwail, the moment he got word that they had the Artifact, why didn't he rush over? He's a fucking dragon he could get there in a day's worth of flying. He had like, 20,000 life. He could survive fuckin' bullets. The guys tough, he could've helped the Creeps tons.

Where was the bastard?
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Postby Hammel » August 26th, 2006, 5:39 am

Therivox is too fat for flying quickly, so the smaller forces had to duke it out... there also isnt the whole Elven army around, the Elves could have sent tons of units there with portals, what do they use magic for? ~~

So in short: Therivox and the whole Elven army were too far away to help. Apart from that, the elves simply had to dig their way into the ground, shouldn't take too long with magic.

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Postby Tehw00tz » August 27th, 2006, 1:05 pm

Ion wrote:Where the fuck is Therivox stationed? It'd make complete sense for him not to be at Stormwail (because going there was basically sort of just a wild guess, they didn't really know they'd find the Artifact). But assuming he found out, and assuming he was stationed elsewhere, wouldn't he pull his own army out and focus on securing that artifact?

I mean:

A) Where was he first? Where'd he station himself?

B) If he's not on Stormwail, the moment he got word that they had the Artifact, why didn't he rush over? He's a fucking dragon he could get there in a day's worth of flying. He had like, 20,000 life. He could survive fuckin' bullets. The guys tough, he could've helped the Creeps tons.

Where was the bastard?

Xeldarith would like, totally vengence pwn him, zomgwtfbbq.
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Postby DarnYak » August 27th, 2006, 2:47 pm

I really think you overestimate flying speed of a dragon. Obviously its faster then land travel, but its certainly not plane speed. Or even car speed. Plus, considering how much energy it require sto keep a dragon aloft means frequent stops for hunting food, sleeping, etc.

Plus, they weren't certain the artifact was actualy there untill it was unlocked by the elves, they were chasing multiple leads worldwide (such as gloomreap). I believe (if I remember right) that Bane actualy reports the elves either were forced to retreat (which is true, but they ahd no reason to stay once they had the artifact), and that either he didnt know they actualy got the artifact, or claimed it wasn't what they were after.

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Postby Tehw00tz » August 27th, 2006, 3:19 pm

DarnYak wrote:I really think you overestimate flying speed of a dragon. Obviously its faster then land travel, but its certainly not plane speed.
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Postby Ocean.dll » August 27th, 2006, 7:21 pm

Am I to assume you have the whole back story/setting written down somewhere Yak, and you are just recalling these answers from memory?
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Postby Ion » August 27th, 2006, 7:53 pm

Maybe he just makes it up as he goes along, 'cause he's got the ideas in his head, and is just surprisingly accurate.
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Postby DarnYak » August 27th, 2006, 9:05 pm

Ion wrote:Maybe he just makes it up as he goes along, 'cause he's got the ideas in his head, and is just surprisingly accurate.


More or less. I have a rough overall setting but I dont fill in things untill needed. This is also why i dont always remember the exact answer I've given in the past =P Sometimes I'm intentionaly vague though, such as stuff that happens post exodus.

EotA was never even suppose to have a real story. Exodus just needed a retarded background to give enemies a good reason to suicidally attack the castle (not this retarded kill the king/queen crap). Twilight heroes started getting minor backgrounds, which grew when I added hero descriptions.

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Postby Hammel » August 28th, 2006, 8:17 am

Well, today EotA is the AoS with most background I suppose... although it is still kind of vague. Let's hope for future times ;). When Yak retires from work in general in MANY years, he will write a book on EotA with all the info inside Oo and chase us down and give it to us...

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Postby Ocean.dll » August 30th, 2006, 7:31 pm

Writing a book intrigues me, mainly because it is within my realm of possibility.

So I'll write some fanfic(I hate that word) stuff I guess >.<

By the way, I have quite a bit of the prior evil thread backed up on my computer. I could put it up. Mainly, it has Ion, Victor and I all saying different things about what we think the characters are like and how they would be if they were put into a book or movie. Looking back on it, I said some stupid stuff.
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Postby Ion » August 30th, 2006, 7:45 pm

So did I!

=P
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Postby Furion » August 31st, 2006, 5:03 am

Good an Evil are just illusione of the human mind .....

there is no real good or real evil, just human tinking makes it so

creatures just behave they way they HAVE TO (animals who kill to survive)

mentioning the above only humans are the only real evil beings, due to the fact that they have morality...

since there are not many humans in eota, not many of the heros are evil

for example as undead you wont mind killing someone.. like "he is just dead whats wrong with that, i died as well" and for undeads diseases are just nothing, you wont make them undesrtand how "evil" it is to inflict living beings with a disease.
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Postby ashwa » August 31st, 2006, 7:01 am

Furion wrote:Good an Evil are just illusione of the human mind .....

since there are not many humans in eota, not many of the heros are evil

for example as undead you wont mind killing someone.. like "he is just dead whats wrong with that, i died as well" and for undeads diseases are just nothing, you wont make them undesrtand how "evil" it is to inflict living beings with a disease.


I beg to differ, any really social and intelligent being can grasp the nature of good and evil, undead was human before, they are intelligent so they know inflicting pain and suffering is evil, maybe they suffer themselves and that drives them slowly to madness but madness is a whole other chapter, still alot of the heroes in eota are intelligent enough to understand the consequenses of their actions. Some do it just to survive, but that doesnt make it evil, the essence of their action is what deems it evil or not.
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Postby Ion » August 31st, 2006, 1:19 pm

But we judge good and evil on human standards. It's common for wolves to abandon the runt of the litter, because it jepordizes the survival of the rest of the pack. To us, that's a horrendous crime: you don't leave your kids behind to starve and die. To the wolf, it's life, it's what it has to do to survive.

Therefore our only perspective is not objective, and all we have to look at is what we as humans see as evil. Therefore, we cannot have a 360 degree look at the subject, we see through a bit of a tunnel when it comes to seeing something as good, or evil.

But regardless of that, we are human, and as far as we know the only people using computers and playing EotA are humans, therefore I think it's both logical and legitimiate for us to only look at good and evil through a human point of view, since that's who it concerns.


On a completely unrelated note, who would you rather work under? Deinnov, the Elves, Therivox or the Grim Brigade? =P
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