Is anyone still actually evil?

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Is anyone still actually evil?

Postby mianmian » August 13th, 2006, 1:15 pm

Well, I guess it had to be done, and I finally got my turn.

EDITED!

ok, heres the list so far.

United Creeps

Scarab = Good
Collosus = Good
Arboreal Crusader = Good
Master of the Hunt = Evil
Arcane Mistress = Evil
Acid Reaver = Evil
Grim Hag = Evil
Ice Spinner = Evil?
Dread Shaman = ?
Elder Treant = ?

Elven Battalion

Infiltrator = Evil(ish)
Soul Binder = Evil
Arcane Archer = Evil
Aeromancess = ?
Rune Knight = ?
Tactician = ?
Mystic Swashbuckler = ?
Blazing Priest = ?
Time Cleric = ?
Divine Wizard = ???

Grim Brigade

Incarnation = Neutral?
Sorrow Liege = Evil
Defiler = Evil
Ascendant = Evil
Nephilim = Evil?
High Oracle = ?
Last edited by mianmian on August 23rd, 2006, 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Scythen » August 13th, 2006, 1:32 pm

hmm...good question....
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Postby Hammel » August 13th, 2006, 1:54 pm

SB is evil burning shit down and making everyone believe he is too weak...
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Postby SeasonsOfLove » August 13th, 2006, 2:56 pm

Bane is pretty damn evil, also. He kills his own troops to get the others to follow his orders.
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Postby de-cross » August 13th, 2006, 3:27 pm

well they still don't follow his orders! they always kamikaze into the enemy base! ;)
even he has to pay for the loyality of his troops =P
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Postby Strychnyne » August 13th, 2006, 3:56 pm

There are seven heros that are evil! The UD side! Duh. They have to be evil, or they would've died in the first place. *sigh* I can't believe I have to wait until Wendnesday to play them...
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Postby DarnYak » August 13th, 2006, 6:50 pm

I wouldnt go so far as to call all the undead evil, but Taz'uraj is definately evil. What else can a guy who inflicts disease on others for fun be?

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Postby mianmian » August 13th, 2006, 7:09 pm

The Incarnation seems evil, Elemental of Death, living only to feed? mind you, that could be his nature so its a toss up.

Plight is just a abombination, evil to the core, Lord Sorrow killed his father? the king, but that was evil, but he was enchanted wasnt he?

Also, Naga isnt evil at all, she just sided with the side she though would win :P
BTW: why no gush in EXO!!
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Postby DarnYak » August 13th, 2006, 8:26 pm

mianmian wrote:The Incarnation seems evil, Elemental of Death, living only to feed? mind you, that could be his nature so its a toss up.


Personally, I dont feel Quietus has any sense of morals to be able to be called good or evil. Yes, he kills people to eat..this is a standard feature of basicly every animal. I couldnt fit it into the description, but basicly all death elementals have thousands (or millions) of fragments of memories of those who died to give birth to them, leaving them borderline insane. At the moment he's being ordered around by Halo (he can't eat undead so they get along fairly well with him), but has no real desires of his own. Hell, he's practicly a machine.

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Postby Ion » August 13th, 2006, 8:56 pm

I'm evil.
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Postby mianmian » August 13th, 2006, 10:03 pm

Ya, thats what I figured Yak, its what he does, Elemental of Death and all, like, water elementals are wet, Fire elementals are hot, Death Elementals kill shit, but ya :p

Prince Rue, how evil is he?

Plight, evil :p

Troll, evil, as stated

Naga, not evil at all, just siding with her best interest.

Nephilim, where does he fit it? seriously?

PS: If the Incarnation can't eat undead units, how does he sacrafice units?
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Postby DarnYak » August 14th, 2006, 12:02 am

mianmian wrote:PS: If the Incarnation can't eat undead units, how does he sacrafice units?


When a living creature dies, it gives off a form of energy that Incarnations feed off of. The energy controlling/animating an undead is a completely seperate form of energy that he can forcibly release (thus killing the unit) but its not the same type. Or it might be related, but it'd be the equivalent of eating spoiled meat.

Prince Rue, how evil is he?


Rue is basicly an Arthas that sucked. Attempting to fight the undead, he instead gets his ass kicked and forcibly turned into one, and then ordered around by Halo showing off the undead's powers. Was he evil before that? Maybe a bit, but certainly not the mass murderer he was forced to become. If he were suddenly released from Halo's hold, what would he do? That is probably what would determine if he's evil or not now.

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Postby Hammel » August 14th, 2006, 10:29 am

Can you please post some more detailed info on the UD heroes since I didnt have time to play T6 (I don't even have it)?... Maybe when someone let's me dl I can find it out on my own but until then I am staring at your posts on the UD in total awe.

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Postby mianmian » August 14th, 2006, 11:11 am

If he were suddenly released from Halo's hold, what would he do? That is probably what would determine if he's evil or not now.


suicide?

Errr, so he CAN eat UD :p hazzah! he should just wtfpwn Halo. He could, with his nuke :P
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Postby Hammel » August 14th, 2006, 1:34 pm

Ohh you dared to talk about T6 without me knowing it... how could you... but tomorrow my day of revenge will come ;). Cuz then I will have played it a bit.

Until then: Farewell :P

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Postby DarnYak » August 14th, 2006, 2:42 pm

mianmian wrote:
If he were suddenly released from Halo's hold, what would he do? That is probably what would determine if he's evil or not now.


suicide?

Errr, so he CAN eat UD :p hazzah! he should just wtfpwn Halo. He could, with his nuke :P


Talking about halo here, not Quietus

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Postby ashwa » August 14th, 2006, 4:55 pm

well this is easy, the penguins are evil. Dont you see? they turn into sheeps and stuff that the children of the tourists passing by wanna go and pet, then they abduct the child and performs unholy rituals on them inside the igloo involving potatoes of doom and fish, driving their parent mad with venegance you can sometime see them suicide themselves in some of the penguins standing casually outside the igloo. if the 3 armies doesnt unite against the terror from the ice we will soon be facing a massive worldwide genocide when the penguinarmy starts marching with their newly summoned leader from hell. fact!
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Postby mianmian » August 14th, 2006, 5:16 pm

Talking about halo here, not Quietus


Yes, but since Quietus can release the undead energy, couldnt he do that to the Undead heroes? with the exception of the Naga, and the Nephilim, them both being alive :P

Thinking about it though, he wouldnt really have a reason too, mind you, if he is insane, he might not need one. SO I guess he just sorta hangs around with the undead people cause they fight lots of living people. :P

Also, why is the Nephilim on UD and not a Fel Orc? is he a rival to Deinnov? but he dosent seem to be that powerfull.
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Postby Hammel » August 15th, 2006, 8:08 am

Towelie: Don't you see it? The penguis summon a beacen for the undead so they can tele to Stormwail and steal the artefact when the Elves won. Too bad they timed it wrong so the UD arrived to late and instead "devoured" the creeps, making them a part of their army. THAT is evil (to me), since now they've got the uber-pawnage-rape-forces from Exo... with that power they overwhelm the Elves at Gloom and take the stuff there, turning tiny goblins into the ferocius 10k-hp-beasts flying in carriers as we see them in Exo.

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Postby Ocean.dll » August 20th, 2006, 1:12 pm

I think someone really needs to define what "good" and "evil" means. We really lack a standard for such a thing. Everyone thinks that they are doing good in the world, opinions just differ. Terrorist and Freedom Fighter are synonymes for eachother after all. I mean, the Soul Binder sure as heck thinks he's doing the right thing. He's doing what is neccisary to get the job done, and he probably thinks hes saving more lives by using the souls of the already dead to power his magics. The Incarnate is something that would be considered very bad and terrible to us, somewhat because we are a death denying culture. Essentially, anything dealing with death to power the warrior would be considered evil by us.

So, that pretty much wraps up the Soul Binder, Incarnate, Ascendant (p.s., I like Sky Scourge better.), and Defiler up. The Sorrow Liege may not be acting entirely on his own accord or whatever, but essentially whomever the Sorrow Liege was before he pulled a "Kerrigan/Arthas" is gone now. The Nephilim is probably evil, but not neccisarily. He is a demon that is manipulating the Grim Brigade. Demon and manipulate are both dirty words here in America, at least. The Arcane Archer is a murderer, meaning she is also evil. The Arcane Mistress is pretty much evil too, cause she is defined by another dirty word: revenge. She also controls the undead. The Aeromancess is questionable. I remember Yak saying that the Aero had something to do with the AM's murder as well. We all know the Acid Reaver, Master of the Hunt, and Grim Hag are evil. I also think Ice Spinner is, although I can't recall.

Then there are the neutral characters who are essentially soldiers caught in the mix. The Rune Knight, Infiltrator, Tactician, Time Cleric, and Mystic Swashbuckler are all neutral I think. Mostly because I don't know how much Yak has talked about these, except the infiltrator, who is just apparently a soldier fighting for the highest bidder. That might almost make her evil.

The good characters we always seem to agree on are the Arboreal Crusader and Colossus. They are the innocent victims who's homeland is being invaded. You could say this of the Elder Treant too, although he supposedly is only looking out for his own bark. He supposedly has a superiority complex, bt I don't know if thats inherently bad. I look at it as a bad thing, but thats my opinion.

I'm really curious about the "religious" characters and where you would fit them. The Scarab is a paladin of his race, but just how good of a character is he? same goes for the Divine Wizard, who is rather vengeful. The Blaze Priest seems to be a zealot as well. The Dread Shaman and the High Oracle are both responding to visions, so I have no idea about them either.

Sorry if that was incoherent. I'm just bored and writing my thoughts down as they pop in my head.
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Postby Hammel » August 20th, 2006, 1:37 pm

Just because people are soldiers, they are not necessarily neutral. The RK is also a Paladin-like character, shielding the weak (in the word's truest meaning). The TC is a healer with control over the flow of time. Healing others is usually a good thing, so she can be good, too.

High Oracle is, just like the Dread Shaman, only fighting for the best of her/himself and their kind... Oracle because she thinks the UD will win... can be evil (only wishing to win), neutral (trying to survive) or even good (seeing no other way out).

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Postby mianmian » August 20th, 2006, 2:10 pm

Well, thats interesting look at it. Very americanized :p

Fenris, IMO, isnt erally evil, he can't be, hes a animal, animals arnt evil :p
Sure, hes intelligent, but still a animal :p

Quietus isnt evil ether, like Yak pointed out. (hes the incarnate)

High oracle/Dread Shaman. I find these two to be neutral-sih leaning towards good, there doing this to save there people, IMO it would be more evil to ignore the omens and doom there people. :p

Like I said interesting take on it, very americanized :P
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Postby Ion » August 20th, 2006, 3:14 pm

Since we're speaking English, I think it's safe to bring in the defintion of evil in here so no one, including myself, feels unsure of what they're talking about.


EVIL

• Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
• Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
• Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
• Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
• Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

n.
• The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
• That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
• An evil force, power, or personification.
• Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=good

(It's too damn long to put in here and I don't want to cut out parts, just read that definition for good).


I think though we have to remember this is all on a very moral and humane level. Some of the more complex characters in literature may have evil tendencies but they themselves cannot be classified as evil. A corny but very accurate example of this is in the Harry Potter series, with the character of Severus Snape. Snape on many occasions has displayed terribely evil, selfish and morally destructive tendencies (culminating with a murder in Book 6) but, as well as that, has shown to be sometimes a kind, thoughtful and on occasion, pitiful character.

Therefore, on some accounts, Snape is most definately consumed by evil working alongside more decent people then himself, and on others he is most definately good working alongside a dark clientele. Whatever the case, there is no complete solid indestructible evidence he is evil, and there is no complete solid indestructible evidence saying that he is good. That's where are own morals, ideas and virtues come into play to say weither or not the things a character like Snape might be doing are right and wrong.

But I think it can be said that evil doesn't just come down to perception and ideas of virtues, because in that sense nothing can be evil-concrete and nothing can be good-concrete, and that in itself contradicts both the words and renders everything assossiated with them obselete. There is a definition for what evil is, and a definition for what good is.

So that means most definately some of the characters in EotA would quite easily fall under the catagory of evil. I would say however that very few characters fall under the complete defintion of "pure evil", which would of course mean that evil itself has manifested with that character, and we could take out the definitive checklist I've presented for you in the above and tick off every single part of the defintion while still being able to relate it all to the character in question.

That all said, evil and good both come handed down in nice crisp packages, but it is very hard to find a character who shows every tendency of evil, or every tendency of good (Snape, Gollum, etc.) These "grey" characters show carrying no more then one trait then the other (and often times they exemplify certain traits ahead of the other, and the revert back again, as to confuse you on what they hell they really want to do).


Just because people are soldiers, they are not necessarily neutral. The RK is also a Paladin-like character, shielding the weak (in the word's truest meaning). The TC is a healer with control over the flow of time. Healing others is usually a good thing, so she can be good, too.


I quite agree. Being a soldier they must have some preference to one side of the spectrum or another. Does killing a man in blue make your cause any more morally acceptable then killing a man in red? That is where morals and virtue come into play and how you percieve the world.

The contradicting evidence however suggests that like in World War II, a Soldier fighting for the American army killing a German soldier was an evil deed for a good cause. Condescending and nonsensical, this is merely a befudding statement that, like being a soldier, is completely up to weither you see the Allies as good or bad.

It is fact however that to kill is an evil deed, regardless of weither it is a good or bad cause. We aren't perfect, and often times we omit that. What do you think? That's really what it comes down to in that situation.


Fenris, IMO, isnt erally evil, he can't be, hes a animal, animals arnt evil :p
Sure, hes intelligent, but still a animal :p


That is not true. Animals are painted in black and white. There are many, many evil animals with many evil, greedy and destructive tendencies. There have been many cases of unprovoked attack in the wild by angry animals, not just towards humans but to all types of wildlife. And it's not always for food.

Some of the classic examples of evil animals are pitbulls. They aren't born evil, they are just generally more violent upon birth and are used lots in gang-related violence and by incompetant owners. They are a very difficult dog to try simply because by nature, they enjoy conflict. Sometimes it's the owner sometimes it is the nature of the dog, regardless like humans, there are some sociopathic dogs, just like there ar some cats, lions, dolphins, gorillaz and crocodiles.


If you wanted to get right down to who is really evil, rather then looking at the colors you have to look at the cause. Since we're without character bios and we only have bits of information on characters pasts and even the status of factions, it's really difficult to say who is evil, who is good, and who's really righteous in this whole war.

When we get more information on that, and I mean detailed information we can really get a good picture of where on the moral hierarchy each hero stands and each faction stands. I wouldn't go so far as to say anyone is truely good, but we have no evidence anyone is truely evil. People like the Rune Knight aren't necessarily good because they protect innocent people, as they must just as well be religious zealots who'd use force to convert them as well.

It's also unfair to say people like the Master of the Hunt, the Sorrow Liege or someone like the Infiltrator are evil too. They may do evil things on behalf of good things, which essentially rips apart your whole sense of good and bad and sends you into again the world of perception, virtue and morals.

Just a thought.
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Postby Ocean.dll » August 20th, 2006, 4:38 pm

Thanks for the definition.

I do recall Yak saying Fenris was evil though. I think we had a debate on it once about his animal-like nature. I think it ended with Fenris having a completely human like mind, on par with human intelligence. Supposedly, he hunts people out of enjoyment and stuff and is very vicous about it. By that I mean mutilation.

And I understand that soldiers can have different tendencies towards good and evil, just like everyone else, but we just don't know enough about their personalities to say they are good. A medic on the battle field isn't a better person than a rifleman just because he patches people up. He's doing his job. I know with magic it could be considered a bit different, but essentially I think the Rune Knight is just doing his job on the field.
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Postby mianmian » August 20th, 2006, 5:19 pm

Ya, I can see Fenris being evil, I just remember his little flavor text :P Ok, so he's evil-ish

Ion, about the pitbull thing,

like conflict


Thats being aggresive :P

I dont think animal's can be designated as evil, an abused animal isnt evil, its conditioned.

Ok, We need to make a scale, for evilness in Eota! :p

At the top, we would have the most "evil" on the scale and the lowest being good, think PH scale, with like 7 being neutral.

I really dont think Alexander is a fanatic, hes a member of a order of knights. They follow there own code, and do what it demands of them, he isnt a paladin-zealot :p

Of all the Religious people, I think Xeldarith is the most fanatical, I always pictured him as being a bit more then slightly insane :p

Bhekar Ro, is the leader of a minor religion, as far as I can remember, and not really fanatical.

Scarab, IMO, also comes across somewhat like a zealot, just not nearly so extreme.

As to Rue, like Yak said he was similar to Arthas, who was both evil/good, conflicting inside himself, but he was defeated, and bespelled now his evil side is the more promenent. I refuse to believe hes just a a puppet, aware of his actions and unable to stop them.
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