Suggestions from a real life game designer

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Suggestions from a real life game designer

#1 Post by Shadowplay »

Hello all. Im new to this game and this board so if what I address here has been covered elsewhere I appologise.

I encountered this game today for the first time and to be honest im really impressed. In my normal every day work im a game designer (cant tell you which company unfortunately) and I see alot of potential in this game. I think there are a few flaws though.

The game is really interesting, there is a possibility of designing your hero just as you like it and so forth but this game fails somewhat in picking up new players like myself. I played it a few times and every single game was littered with new players as would be expected but this game didnt really do that well of a job picking them up and limping them into the game.
I have a few ideas how to fix them:

First off, I really like the abundant info given but no new player will take time to read that long explanations. I suggest keeping the explanations as they are for the more dedicated players but also add in a color coded "short version" of the hints like you do in the normal items.

An example is the starting scroll - how about adding a few lines telling excately what it does in 10 words or so?
I know that it is all explained but that is not the point - the point is to explain it in a short and concice way so that even the most feebleminded person would understand it. In my company we have a saying that "People are stupid, persons are not" - this means that when you have a large audience you need to target, you have to make it so that even a complete moron wound understand it. A solution to the starting scroll example could be to show a floating text at start which goes like this:
"The scroll in your inventory has some hints for you. Place it in your Alter for your first transmute"
but this goes on in every aspect of the game. If the game detects a new player it should tell the player when he buys an item that it can be upgraded in his alter and so on.


Another thing the game needs to focus on is eliminating the sources of stress in the game. Im not talking about the battles but the fact that you can be very easily creep blocked for instance. Any new player would be used to dota which has very little of this sort and this game needs to realise that. Another issue is the flying hero for instance - most melee heroes cant even target it and that gives way for alot of frustration. I know that this may change alot in the game but a solution to these issues could be to make it so that the teleport in the Alter is only affected when taking damage from a hero and making a small notice to the player that he should remember that he can tp away from his alter (along with a ping to that player) - the "flying hero issue" could be fixed by a number of solutions; make all spells able to target air, make an orb available so that you can target air or simply let all melee able to target air by default.

I know that many people will answer this post with comments that I am a noob or some other childish comment but I am stating the truth. If you want someone to use your product you need to think about your exposure first and foremost. The wider the appeal is, the more people will host to play it again and thus give base for more potential players.

Therefore you need to give way for the "noob" players. Dota only really rose to what it is today because they introduced "-sm" (the old "short mode") which gave way for less talanted players to play it and explore it with all the possibilities of a "pro player" and this is what this map needs. What I saw when trying it was a game with all the possibilities of dota but which will never really embrace them until they can widen their player base - and that will only happen if you give way for the ... "less talanted" players.

Therefore I suggest that you try and host it public as much as you can and really listen to what people tell you besides how utterly awesome it looks.
Since i am on my way to bed I wont make this any longer but i only addressed a few of the issues but that is a start at least. I suggest you look at the color coded explanations first and foremost and then the "flying hero" issue and the "starting scroll tower" issue but things such as lvl pr lvl explanations of the skills would also be a great idea so that people can see just what to expect from a skill when they level it. Also you may want to consider reducing the exp gain and along with that, set the hero ability point gain to once every level as not to alienate the new players.

If you are very opposed to these ideas you could make an "advanced mode" making the game excately as it is now, but still making the default mode more newbie friendly - that way you can keep your very competetive games as well as slowly introducing new players to the game thus getting more core players in the long run

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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#2 Post by Soulbourne »

Another problem is this game has a lot of problems that cause lag and such, and only one guy and a handful of random addicts to test it.

There used to be(And will get re-added) a building that gains points for upgrades to all units. One of these upgrades allowed melee units to attack air.

And melee heros have an air attack also...unless there's a glitch. Now some abilities can't hit air, like the infiltrators assassin move, or the harpies backlash(I think most think that a glitch though), but many can, and all can(but backlash) with but the net items or abilities....still the problem of new players though..not sure how many older players actively think of and do this either.


And that's all that I remember about this for now. Welcome to the game, and watch out for the non-me active...many are flamers...but we only have like 7 active members anyways...
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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#3 Post by Laser_Wolf »

Shadowplay I think you're right about the needing to make it easier for new players to get going the first time they play the game. There are even features that give extra features to people that have saved codes and then load them at the beginning of the game. I once had a friend tell me that this game is excellent for beating the crap out of noobs. He then went on to say that this is the only reason I play it(to feel good about myself), but I digress.

Here's a good example of why we should make the game more newb friendly. I tried playing DotA a few times and was very put off by the whole recipe system, because I had to sit there for quite a while trying to figure out what I should buy/make. I have yet to play DotA again.

It might help to make it more newb friendly, however, I have a feeling that after the first few times they get killed they will be overwhelmed by the numerous facets of the game, get frustrated and leave.
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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#4 Post by WC3Player »

Soulbourne wrote:Another problem is this game has a lot of problems that cause lag and such, and only one guy and a handful of random addicts to test it.
True. I mean some people can barely play DotA without having lag, but EotA has like 2-3x(depends on map/settings) the lag potential of DotA.
Therefore you need to give way for the "noob" players. Dota only really rose to what it is today because they introduced "-sm" (the old "short mode") which gave way for less talanted players to play it and explore it with all the possibilities of a "pro player" and this is what this map needs.
DotA was very well known and popular even before they added -ap or -shortmode. I never hosted DotA back then and I played a lot of DotA before they added -ap, -sm, I could always find games, there were rarely times when I couldn't find games.

Though I'm not saying -em/-sm didn't help make DotA more popular, I'm just saying DotA was really already well known and popular before -allpick, -easy/shortmode. Right now, EotA isn't really well known or popular. I never see the map played or hosted ever, and of course these forums aren't that big at all.

Anyway, I think EotA sort of already has a -shortmode or -easymode in the form of the smaller maps.

Stormwail Peak(the biggest map) used to be the only map but now they have one medium sized map and 2 small maps which are good for shorter and easier games.

One problem with EotA is that most people just think it's a DotA clone and won't give it a second thought.

I play in US West, not sure if it's a problem for other regions.
I tried hosting EotA a couple of times, it rarely got much players. We always ended up just facing off against the computer because there was only one or two other players(and we waited for a while) in the game

Most people who joined the game and asked "Is this like DotA", I say "sort of", they usually leave after that.

It's probably because of a few reasons:

1. People are too lazy to learn how to play a new map. Why try a new play when they can play their old favorites?

2. People are impatient. Even DotA games, I see people joining, then leaving in the period of 2 seconds because it only has 7 players instead of 10 players.

People are just impatient, so they don't stay in the game unless they're the last ones or the very lasts ones to join.

With EotA, it's not a map where you host and a full house joins in 5 seconds, so it'll have problems with people joining then leaving right away.

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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#5 Post by Soulbourne »

I use this name and can normally get 3v3 or more: Tired of Dota? Try EotA!!

Sometimes using something like: EotA[AoS] works too.
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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#6 Post by Shadowplay »

Okay perhaps i explained the success of dota a bit wrong ;)

What really made dota successful was back in the ROC days when Eul (the "original" map maker of dota allstars), as one of the very few map designers, stuck with his map and actually improved it beyond just adding heroes. The Dota type maps had a forest but when he collected the best of the best of the heroes from the various designers and renamed his map Dota Allstars and ultimately introduced the recipes which distuingished dota from the rest of the vast ocean of AOS (Aeon of Strife) clones - that was what initially sparked DotA's success to the point when it became a map that most people knew. Dota did not have its final breakthrough until Guinsoo took over though and added in -sm (Short Mode) as a mode for new or impatient players.

What Eota has is a very unlucly abberiviation which makes people think it is a knockoff of dota allstars and as a result they tend to think the worst - if you have the intro points i suggested I think that you would pick up alot more players since this is a quick way of letting people know that this is NOT dota and never will be as it has its very own mechanics.

As for flame; dont worry - Im used to it. Im also Dota League admin, former ClanBase dota supervisor, former Dota VIP admin and alot of other stuff and when you get known in the dota community you get flamed ALOT xD

But i appreciate the feedback - now i only hope that the devs will be made aware of this thread ;)

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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#7 Post by DarnYak »

Thanks for taking time to post your feedback, constructive criticism is always welcome.
Shadowplay wrote:First off, I really like the abundant info given but no new player will take time to read that long explanations. I suggest keeping the explanations as they are for the more dedicated players but also add in a color coded "short version" of the hints like you do in the normal items.
I originaly followed the basic WC3 style of tooltips for consistancy/familiarity, but its something I've been considering changing for a while. To be fair, quite a few skills wouldn't get much shorter due to their complex nature.

Newbie unfriendliness has always been a major inhibiter to growth that I've never been able to properly solve.
If the game detects a new player it should tell the player when he buys an item that it can be upgraded in his alter and so on.
Unfortunately, experience shows they won't read any message on the screen anyway.
Another issue is the flying hero for instance - most melee heroes cant even target it and that gives way for alot of frustration.
All melee heroes have a built in air attack to deal with this and air spawns. The exeption is Gravel, whom needs to be using war club in order to hit air. Most skills can hit air already, most that can't intentionally can't (one exception is Backlash, which wc3 won't allow to hit air)
Therefore you need to give way for the "noob" players.
While I understand where you're coming from, I don't entirely agree. Do I want to see the EotA fanbase grow? Absolutely. Do I want to invite giant swarms of noobs? No. I accept it would be better to accommodate some of them, but becoming massively popular has never been the goal.
Also you may want to consider reducing the exp gain and along with that, set the hero ability point gain to once every level as not to alienate the new players.
Must admit I'm not certain how this alienates anyone. Although I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have it specificly state you don't get points every level.

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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#8 Post by DarnYak »

Stormwail Peak(the biggest map) used to be the only map but now they have one medium sized map and 2 small maps which are good for shorter and easier games.
If only they worked that way...

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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#9 Post by Shadowplay »

Yeah I noticed that many skills are rather complex but if you can make just 60% of the skills easily accessable then you will have gained alot already - the rest is just up to choice of words. I work closely with linguists when designing skills and abilities and I have yet to see a single skill they can not fit into 15 words - it is all about having a piece of text on all skills which is very easily recognised (color coding is your very best friend here - even dota is implementing that now ;) ). I know i am very new to the game but I dare say that I would be able to fit almost any skill into 20 words and I am not excately profficient in that part as you can see from my first post ;P

I found another examble by the way; the builder unit you can buy to build more stuff by your "townhalls" - some times it is able to build and sometimes it isnt. And this seems very random to me as a non-pro. I suggest making a small extra dummy skill on all such units telling in very few words when you can build and when you cannot.

Also, while I only did try playing Gravel, the fact that there was no info in the Club skill that this made you able to attack flying units was a source of great annoyance to me. I know this may seem completely unreasonable but how about scrabbing the flying hero? or perhaps making it into a skill granting him temporary flying? It would solve alot and still let him keep the feel of the hero.

As for the fanbase increase; You will always have to have appeal for the utter noob if you want the map hosted - I am sorry to tell you but that is the way it is. And if the map does not get hosted, none of the more serious players will not be playing it either. I am currently making a map like rabbits vs sheep with my mate but alot more advanced, yet we have implemented an easy-to-use command and help bar almost only using the esc key and game modes. It may be a viable choice to include modes which are more noob friendly. I know it will take time but I really do think it will be worth it.
Unfortunately, experience shows they won't read any message on the screen anyway.
There is an amazingly simple fix to this: Make it another more eye catching color. I am from denmark so I dont know the exact english word for it but "complimentary colors" is always the best solution - by complimentary colors I mean, the color which is the opposite of the back ground in the color spectrum (ie; yellows complimentary color would be: red+blue=purple). Research show that poeple percieve these colors alot faster then other colors, and bright colors on dark back ground is also a great idea.


As for the level/skill point issue; people have a better time when they recognise the basics of the game or theme and since people are used to warcraft heroes getting 1 point pr level they will have an easier time to adjust to the game the more it looks like something they look - having your heroes gain 1 point pr level, doubling the stat gain and reducing the exp gain by 50% would do very very little to your map dynamics, yet still prove exceedingly useful for phasing people into the game by giving them a sense of familiarity.

Lastly;
I originaly followed the basic WC3 style of tooltips for consistancy/familiarity, but its something I've been considering changing for a while. To be fair, quite a few skills wouldn't get much shorter due to their complex nature.
This is also good for less complex skills - following the status quo. The problem you have is the complexity of your game and as a result, the skill descriptions. Color coding the levels would make it alot easier to handle for newbies as they would naturally read the color before anything else. An example could be Gravels club skill - make a yellow text (or some other easily read bright color) which says; Picks up a tree for extra damage and the ability to hit flying units.
and there you have a semi-complex skill dealt with in 14 words

Edit: I think that one of the achilles heels about your map is that you share 75% of the abbriviation with the most fameous map on battlenet - Dota. People will mistake it for some 9yr old kiddie's "me can maek meself map OMG" kind of map when they see the game hosted as "eota" - you may want to change the main title to your new subtitle when you release an update and then let Eve of the Apocalypse be the subtitle. Many people would be much more inclined to join a game called "Twilight" than "Eota" if they did not know the map

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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#10 Post by Emufarmers »

I don't know where the perception that DotA is newbie-friendly comes from: Among other things, it features blink-and-you're-dead combat, a wicked™-hard recipe system, and a vicious playerbase (which is almost built into the map: I know I'm going to kick somebody if he's feeding because he doesn't know what he's doing).

You won't face scorn in EotA if you're not über-leet; as long as you can play above the point of outright feeding (and anybody who feeds in EotA would do no better in DotA, and likely lacks the intuitive senses and reflexes required for RTS games), you can play and feel like you had a good game. You can play EotA alone or with the computer and still feel like you're playing EotA (you can play DotA alone, of course, but heroes are so dominating in DotA that it feels both lonely and hollow).

There's something about the look and feel of EotA that makes its few followers react very negatively to changes, even more so than is typical for gamers. The non-standard leveling system is one element of, as are the tower core system and other things that seem strange (though there are genuine oversights and mistakes).

The problem with EotA is that its clan-oriented elements obscure its accessible nature. The game is good about showing you the ropes if you pay attention (and if you don't, you're sunk), but not so good at explaining more advanced concepts. I think Yak could put more work into integrating explanations of some of those concepts into the game (though I'm pretty sure he'd rather work on other components), but some things just have to be learned by experience or research. Even DotA never tells you that destroying a barracks upgrades your creeps.


I really like your suggestions about color-coding: A colored 5-word summary could lead each skill description, and the normal details would follow. Even the most complex skills can be summarized in a few words by generalizing, and this could help eliminate some of the "stress" from having a bunch of skills you've never seen before.

By the way, I just checked DotA's skill descriptions, and they're not very concise or color-coded (beyond the level-by-level sections). Not that it wouldn't be great to have another thing that EotA is better than DotA at. :)
Shadowplay wrote:I found another examble by the way; the builder unit you can buy to build more stuff by your "townhalls" - some times it is able to build and sometimes it isnt. And this seems very random to me as a non-pro. I suggest making a small extra dummy skill on all such units telling in very few words when you can build and when you cannot.
Spawn tower construction is limited by the availability of tower cores. When you can't build a tower, it does say "Requires: Tower Core." Admittedly, this isn't very helpful if you don't know what tower cores are; the dummy skill you suggest could say "Earn tower cores by holding obelisks on Stormwail Peak, securing Moontears on Kedge's Landing, or mining Gloomite on Gloomreap Mire." There are potential problems with this, though: First, many people won't see or read the dummy skill, no matter how colorful its text is. But worse, the quick explanation only leads to more questions: "What are obelisks? What is Gloomreap Mire? Wait, which map are we on, again?" Simple explanations get messy when the subject has dependencies.

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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#11 Post by Perhaps »

    I believe "newb friendly" is putting it lightly... I think it's already at the point where it's fairly easy to navigate for needed information. At this point it's pretty much idiot proofing. It's true that people of such level of intelligence aren't likely to contribute much to the community, however they can still contribute by being filler by an extensive amount, so idiot proofing is a helpful tool. I found these results to be true with Battlecraft (Starcraft) map I was working on. The map became more popular and players were slightly a better challenge. Though idiot proofing got really discouraging, because no matter how many basisses are covered it will NEVER be enough.

    At that point it's about deciding what a reasonable level is. I think the most important simplification is via interface functionality, not limited to the GUI. Where DotA and a LOT of maps lack, is not using a hotkey theme such as the "qwerct" in EotA or the "qwerdfg" in SShowdown. Reaching across for the "L" key to do Attack of Oppurtunity would be pretty unsightly. Where EotA can improve in this? Hotkeyability of non-ownership buildings via two methods: first is dummy buildings that overlap the selection of the building, and when selecting it, it will immediately select the building below, unless in "hotkey mode;" the second in the next listed improvement. A dummy hero (second made hero) on the F2 hotkey (maybe even F3+) that has a list of abilities that would access features, like selecting a shop, selecting town/tree, skill version of -o, skill version of -s, spell book of -temper <slot> with slot position inside.
Soulbourne wrote:I use this name and can normally get 3v3 or more: Tired of Dota? Try EotA!!

Sometimes using something like: EotA[AoS] works too.
The game name I get best results with is: "EotA! Sugar free AoS!" Where I came up with the name, I'm not sure.
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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#12 Post by DarnYak »

I should also add, I'm not sure complexity is really the issue people have problems with. I must admit my experience playing the game in pugs is pretty damn limited, as when i'm in the mood to play EotA I'm usually more in the mood to work on it, but usually i see pub's grab a hero, do something completley moronic like try to solo a base or 30 units or 3 heroes or all of those at once, die, and then immediately leave. I really don't know how to respond to that, aside from coming up with more appealing ways to make them stay around for a second shot.

What i really don't get is most of these people probably play DotA and the idiotic tactics i see them use don't work any better there.

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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#13 Post by Meckross »

DarnYak wrote:but usually i see pub's grab a hero, do something completley moronic like try to solo a base or 30 units or 3 heroes or all of those at once, die, and then immediately leave.
There is no cure for a suicide leaver besides an experimental brain surgery <.<

Its not the mappers fault that certian players simply
A) dont speak english
B) cant read
C) dont want to read
D) think their hero can 1shot everything @ lvl 1
E) have an IQ below 90

I cant even count how often ive told people to read the scroll they spawn with. @ pregame and ingame ... multiple times ... they just dont do it.

I once played without upgrading it just to see what happens ... seriously you get spammed with tutoral msges .. a semipermanent pointer on the minimap tells you where to go. How in gods name are they able to ignore that ?

I think a loadingscreen with a few infos could help some people. Since the wooden cpus are still out there and delay the loading a lot sometimes giving you time to read ^^
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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#14 Post by Raxxor »

Noooo, don't remove the loadingscreen or I won't be able to laugh about others that have a slow pc ;(
To be honest I like the current loadingscreen more than the campaign ones,and please,PLEASE do not add a custom loadingscreen,as that is the worst waste of space I could think of.
People not reading the scroll are always making me happy-once they leave the game. I am hosting eota alot on eu,and my experience is that many players do read the scroll,or at least react when you tell them what to do.You can't do anything about those who don't even read what their comrades write ingame,or before it started.But if I got Yak right then he doesn't want that kind of players anyway.Best thing that can be done imo is being that kind,and writing it in chat before the game started,shouldn't be too much of an effort and helps making the game more fun.
If that pisses you off,go play inhouse only and the problem is solved for you,if you don't know enough people to play an inhouse 3v3 or higher,go channel clan eota or even join the clan,I don't know anything about how the status is in US,but I don't think it's impossible to find hosts in eu(sometimes even see 3 games hosted the same time,woa).
If you are desperate,shy,and have no friends,you can still try voting for gloomreap(not that gloomreap was boring in inhouse games),or tell the others to vote gloomreap before gamestart,most people tend to vote it then,if they think you know the game.

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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#15 Post by Soulbourne »

Haven't been on lately, but clan-wise, US seems dead. I see about 5 people on a lot(or did, this comp won't get on bnet...) and they're rarely in an AoS at all, at least thst I know is one. Last time I got on, got 3 or 4 random visitors to the channel to join the game though, so...
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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#16 Post by Perhaps »

    I would suggest putting info in the Loading Screen, but that has only prooved to be only 10% effective towards new players. I get this Statistic from SShowdown. The loading screen tells you that levels have no effect towards game play, how to save and load your levels, and how to pick a character... I should also say that at the beginning of the game it says that crap too. Yet I find people BEGGING AND NAGGING on how to pick a character as well as people thinking they lost because you're a level 5 and they're a level 1. And of course people asking how to save and load their level.
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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#17 Post by Raxxor »

That's just what I meant,those who don't read the ingame message spamming you when you don't upgrade the scroll would also not read the loading screen,or not many of them...

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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#18 Post by Perhaps »

I was going to include explinations game in the hotkey script I was making. However, I'm currently working on a map.

i.e Press CTRL + P; a chat message, that explains how to do the scroll, will be sent.
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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#19 Post by Tgod »

Hello all, my first post here. Been a while since I've really played WC3, just getting back into it and I definitely remembered this map and so I searched for it on Google and here I am :)

I was reading through some threads and I couldn't help but come up with my own thoughts on certain things...

The primary point I'd like to make that everybody here has touched on, but none have truly elaborated is the fact that:

Players that want to learn by instruction, will take the time to read. Players that want to learn by trial and error, will charge headfirst into a game without knowledge, and then there are players who just don't want to really learn, and for a lack of a better phrase, are "lost causes"

The broad spectrum of players out there can make it difficult for any designer/programmer to accomodate everybody, I'm sure. But that's where the power of choice should come into play.

I'm not a programmer and I have no clue what's doable and what's not when it comes to this stuff, all I can do is offer my thoughts.

But would it be too difficult to give players a choice at the start of the game, before any heroes are selected for players to select their level of experience?

Example: At the start of the game, all players are set to viewing a building that they own. They can choose a different option at this building based on their liking.
Option 1 - None (This sets up that player's game so that they don't receive any extra messages about how the map works and they just play as they choose with no "nagging" messages/hints)
Option 2 - Minor (This sets up that player's game so that they receive abridged messages about the different features. These messages would occur for the first three times they approach a building or a place of action, with a very brief beginning intro for main features, this is good for players who are familiar with the vocabulary terms of general play, but are just new to the map)
Option 3 - Moderate (This sets up a similar help system that has a more expanded help sysmte to elaborate on certain features and also on vocabulary. This helps to get players jump started and become more experienced faster.)
Option 4 - Heavy (This is the long-winded version of help that details everything about whatever feature the player moves up to. Explains everything.)

Now, there are many customizeable options that could be added to this. Example being the ability to turn these features off and on at their choosing throughout the game play. For example if somebody chose 'Heavy' but was a fast learner and picked up the gameplay quickly, they could have an option to then 'Disable' the help text messages. (This could also be done by just allowing players to change their choice [1,2,3,4] at any point during the game, with 1 being the No Help option.)

The beauty of this is that there are sooo many players in any game that will, much too often, avoid seeking help or asking for help in a game because they don't want to be labeled and ridiculed for being the 'n00b' 'noob' 'newb' (The ladder isn't really an insult, but people misuse many words on the internet). With this setup, nobody but that player will really know the experience level that was chosen at the start. Therefore, a new player can feel at ease to select the Heavy help option and pick up the game faster, without having to worry about some elitist belittling them.

At the same time, you won't be forcing all players to suffer through help messages as they play the game, because players can simply just disable the messages should they feel like it.

Then you can make the game as challenging and with plenty of options so long as you provide the different levels of help that a player could understand. All you do is provide players with a choice. At that point, should the player WANT to learn, they have the resources available. If the player doesn't want to learn, or has already gone through that process, they don't need to suffer through it again and can just wait for everybody else to choose before they start plowing into the game.

Anyways, it's just a rough draft of my idea and I don't really know if this is the best place to put it, not sure if I should of started a new thread for it but I was just reading this thread and everyone was touching on the 'newbs' and the learning process so I figured I'd place my idea here.

Hopefully I didn't waste anybody's time with my post. x_x

-Tgod

Edit: Oh, and to keep on-topic a bit better, I really like some of Shadow's points. My idea is kinda an elaboration on top of what he was mentioning with having a slightly better description system for informing new players on how to get started with the game

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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#20 Post by Reaper »

Thanks for giving us your thoughts, Tgod.

That sounds like a pretty decent idea, it just depends on whether DarnYak would spend that much time coding such a feature.
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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#21 Post by Kibiyama »

The question of accessibility has come up quite a few times, but it's always been vetoed because Yak, and the community in general, don't want the game dumbed down so stupid people can play it and infect our community. And I agree, for what it's worth.

I've said in the past that it's possible to keep the complexity that we all enjoy while increasing accessibility!

Problem: EotA is way more technical than it should be for the platform it targets.
  • Color-coding and mini-tutorials are a band-aid solution.
  • EotA does things other AoSes don't do, but it's not obvious that it does them!
    • ...because of UI limitations.
    • ...because the player assumes EotA is "just an AoS."
    • ...because not everything is an integral part of gameplay.
These nuances can mainly be seen in terms of the currencies of EotA:

Image

Gold and level points are fine.
  • Killing people and buying shit is obvious enough.
Crystal is alright.
  • Killing heroes is obvious.
  • Actually using the crystal is a lot less obvious.
Control is a bit of a trouble. You have to know...
  • ...to buy a worker.
  • ...to build obelisks.
  • ...to build a generator.
  • ...to upgrade that generator. (And when you can!)
Tower cores are about the same, but a little worse in visibility since they're not an integral part of the UI.

Upgrade points, when they existed, had the same problem.

So.

For future versions...
  • Consolidate some of the more obfuscated currencies.
  • Find a way to make them more obviously integral to gameplay.
A few example solutions, none of which are probably good enough for real implementation:

Merge experience/level points with crystal and control.
  • Ties personal advancement to team advancement.
  • Change hero ability icon and tooltip to point out the change in philosophy.
  • More visible and unified than current system.
Build spawn towers from the hero's inventory instead of the builder.
  • Cuts out middleman.
  • Requires sacrificing an item slot.
Make obelisk control a hero-centric thing rather than a building.
  • There are a few ways to do this...
  • Probably the best would be to take a page from FPSes.
    • “Stand near it for a while and you gain control of it” model.
  • Also, just give the team the uncontested obelisks – even as it is now, I don't see why we have to waste our time doing that.
By the way, to everyone who has ever said they should just read the help and learn to play (which includes me!):

The shit-to-decent ratio of wc3 maps is about 10^9 to 1, and as a result mapmakers should take the same strategy as a TV commercial: Get the point across quickly and clearly. Minimalism beats verboseness. Attributing it to laziness is a cop-out; if you did an in-depth study of every wc3 game before you made a judgment on it, you'd go blind.

Remember:

Perfection in design is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but rather when there is nothing more to take away. -- Antoine De Saint-Exupery



...And if the last time I talked about EotA's design is any indication, I should prepare to be chased out of town with torches and pitchforks.
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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#22 Post by jamn455 »

Sounds good, may take a bit of work, but most of it should be done and it would be helpful for the novice as well as pros.
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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#23 Post by Perhaps »

The spawn tower no worker thing should be optional. I prefer having the worker to be able to build the spawn towers while being in play, "cuts the travel time." People already manage their travel time poorly, that would be another elitism for newer plays to fall behind on. Pros and cons to both, which is why I say both should be implemented.

As far as hero upgrades etc... I think HoSK has the best setup, I've also suggested before, a dummy hero that resides on the F2 key. The dummy hero would function as an access to various features, namely hero upgrades. It could also access -s, -o, and such as GUI buttons, obviously easier to find.
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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#24 Post by Kibiyama »

Yeah, if the hero building thing was adopted, I would still want a worker too. But like I said, just example solutions. Anything that makes it so the player understands all the options available to them is good.

One thing that definitely needs special attention is making sure new players know how important obelisks are.

Going off of the dummy hero thing, what if there was a dummy hero with an obelisk icon and you gave it ability points matching the number of obelisks the team has? Then if you select it, or maybe just in the name display when you hover over it, you can give a little summary of obelisks.

Another abuse of the UI could be hacking the time-of-day control to be like a progress meter of how long until the next tower core is available. But that would require disconnecting it from the actual time-of-day, and I have no idea if that's possible.
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Re: Suggestions from a real life game designer

#25 Post by Perhaps »

    What could be done with obelisks, is give them foundations like bases have. As well as floating text while it's a foundation and not an obelisk, "Purchase Core production for 500 gold!"

    But for the most part everything that has global range should be accessed by the dummy hero, such as upgrades, or the unit spawner in Candeburg, and so on. Plus instructions would be easier to give players, "how do I upgrade X Talent?", "press F2, e, r, z," (random keys except F2 to give the idea). Also, quick gold transfer presets could be accessed from there, such as "pool for obelisk," which the person you pool it to, it will give the exact amount of gold needed for them to have enough money to build it, if you don't have enough for that, it would of course give all your gold. EotA may not have structures that are there simply for aesthetics, however DotA being the popular AoS has a bunch of do nothing buildings, which is probably one reason players oversee and don't browse their contents. Players are more likely to browse the contents of their "skills" however. The main issue is getting them to hit F2 or click on the icon, which may be fixed by using a custom icon that says
Click Me!
   (F2)
And after the first click the hero unit would be swapped out for one with an appropriate icon.
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