Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

An Aeon of Strife map for Warcraft 3
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 Post subject: Generator Proposal
PostPosted: November 17th, 2013, 2:59 pm 
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The following is a tidied up version of a proposal I made to Yak last month while we were discussing some EotA stuff. Area damage is very strong in EotA right now because it's useful for almost everything: damaging heroes, getting last hits, pushing, defending, etc.

One way to take the focus off area damage would be to do this:
  • No more (or way less) items or features which let you permanently control units. Sludge Jar is probably too good; Sea Elementals are probably okay.
  • Make energy a resource shared by the entire team. This way the one enthusiastic generator person isn't limited by their teammates being busy with other stuff or new to the game. You don't require everyone to use their spawn cores individually, so there's no reason to do it for energy.
  • Make generators "easier to place" in general. This might include less rock tiles (it's really hard to place anything overlooking the enemy main base or Arthas), slightly faster construction times, a "mini-generator" item, etc.
  • Introduce some new/revamped generator types to allow for more options and tactics.

I mention this because a way to reduce the emphasis on AoE is to firstly bring fights to places where AoE isn't as useful (off-lane), and secondly to give people other things to build for. If I can set up two siege generators on top of the mountain and rain fiery fire on the enemy base, that forces the enemy to do something about it pretty quick. An AoE hero isn't going to be able to do much, but maybe if someone's been building for taking out generators there's a chance.

Similarly, being able to defend generators becomes important, so those heroes who can command troops are suddenly bringing something unique and useful to the table. Maybe there need to be some heroes who can take out generators from a distance (long range earthquake which gains damage over time?) as a counterbalance.

It's important that heroes building for attack damage aren't the optimal choice for taking out generators, or attack damage becomes the new dominant stat. Adjust armour types so specific spells or summoned units are more efficient. I see this as Tactician or Infiltrator's job, not Swashbuckler's.

Everything I've mentioned is intended to keep in line with the goal of the game, which is ultimately to push, or get the artifact. I would get rid of the attack and spell generators, and add a shield generator (attacks from outside the bubble deal less damage) and a vision generator. As long as there are heroes like Inf who can take them out, this should be fine.

The amount of energy should be about that of 3 heroes currently (we don't need them spammed as the insane AIs do). The team should lose a little energy permanently for generators which are destroyed, but heroes levelling should result in a net gain of energy anyway assuming the team isn't being careless.

If you've been playing in games with me recently, you'll know I like siege generators. I would like have the generator mechanic expanded on in a way which benefits the game as a whole, and I think this might be a nice way to do it.

I am interested to hear people's thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: Generator Proposal
PostPosted: November 22nd, 2013, 12:25 pm 
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point 1 does sludge jar have a counter? (I don't like sludge jar)
point 2 I'm against it just because you might have a newbie teammate or a dickhead one.
point 3 I think with the last changes, the free cost and when the sell/autodestroy makes it there, they'll be there on the ease to use. If they aren't easy to place, on some places, it's because yak wants it that way I think.
point 4 I'm all for it. I would like some macro oriented like buffing the creeps when near or weaker version of a spawn, auras...


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 Post subject: Re: Generator Proposal
PostPosted: November 22nd, 2013, 3:29 pm 
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point 2 I'm against it just because you might have a newbie teammate or a dickhead one.

That's not really specific to gens; having bad teammates is a separate issue. I'd say the bigger problem is that most people don't use or forget about gens rather than people improperly using them. I would like to see the idea of shared energy since gens mostly seem to be about helping the team as a whole rather than being specific to a player.

About the restriction on building spots, I think Yak intentionally made it so that gens won't add to the snowball effect of holding a lane. I'm mostly thinking about mid lane in Stormwail.

Like I said earlier, most of the time gens aren't used. One of their limitations is that they can only be built in two maps. If the idea of shared energy is implemented, I think it would be interesting to allow gens to be built in all maps but with a map-specific rate at which energy is given to a team.

Another problem to using gens effectively is that it's very easy to forget that you built a gen as the ingame notification is easily lost with the other stuff happening in EotA. If the current mechanics remain, I'd argue for sending a message to the player whenever a gen is finished constructing since it's generally more visible and maybe the option of pinging gens every 10 seconds or so that haven't been upgraded (and another option to disable the pinging).


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 Post subject: Re: Generator Proposal
PostPosted: November 22nd, 2013, 4:18 pm 
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The reason why people who haven't played the game for a long time don't use generators is because if I remember correctly, you gain extra experience based on how much unused energy you have. Not sure if this was taken out of the game or something, but there is a reason why people don't buy generators other than the fact that they are new to the game.

And just like with all summons, the bottle of ooze is easily countered by wands of negation or the staff of negation after you kill the initial sludge monstrosity.

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 Post subject: Re: Generator Proposal
PostPosted: November 22nd, 2013, 6:48 pm 
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Shared energy is definitely happening, probably for next week.

Quote:
slightly faster construction times, a "mini-generator" item, etc.

Quote:
Another problem to using gens effectively is that it's very easy to forget that you built a gen as the ingame notification is easily lost with the other stuff happening in EotA. If the current mechanics remain, I'd argue for sending a message to the player whenever a gen is finished constructing since it's generally more visible and maybe the option of pinging gens every 10 seconds or so that haven't been upgraded (and another option to disable the pinging).

This is coming with it. The current two step building is just a relic of the former system of energy being tied to obelisks which meant you're energy could go down as well as up so they all had to have a central base. But now they don't even have to be any different from other buildings at this point. So they'll be moved to a secondary build menu.

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•Make generators "easier to place" in general. This might include less rock tiles (it's really hard to place anything overlooking the enemy main base or Arthas),

This part however is not coming without a compelling argument as to why. They're intentionally rock at the moment because they're either too hard to access normally (unpathable cliffs around main base - which is also pretty asymmetric between the two bases) or too strong/messes with a central mechanic like slaughtering heroes that try to stop arthas and just spamming arthas to win the game. That's also a reason the moontear spawns in the water. Haven't yet seen Verdant Falls shenanigans attempted though.

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Like I said earlier, most of the time gens aren't used. One of their limitations is that they can only be built in two maps. If the idea of shared energy is implemented, I think it would be interesting to allow gens to be built in all maps but with a map-specific rate at which energy is given to a team.

This is mostly a map size issue, gens are meant to bring additional power/influence to regions of the map, but when maps are so small they turn into just an additional layer of protection you have to fight through. Verdant having 3 lanes is almost enough to enable it there, however its highly compact size magnifies they're range - plus there's not much room to place them in the first place.

Quote:
The reason why people who haven't played the game for a long time don't use generators is because if I remember correctly, you gain extra experience based on how much unused energy you have. Not sure if this was taken out of the game or something, but there is a reason why people don't buy generators other than the fact that they are new to the game.

Taken out as part of the gen revamp a while back, along with crystal gens being removed.

DarnYak


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 Post subject: Re: Generator Proposal
PostPosted: November 22nd, 2013, 11:08 pm 
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It's worthwhile to note that gens are free and energy is tied to hero level. A reminder might be useful the next time we play human games on Stormwail/Gloom.


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 Post subject: Re: Generator Proposal
PostPosted: November 26th, 2013, 6:13 pm 
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Shared energy is a positive step; it'll be cool to try that out.

Being able to place generators near more map objectives (mid lane, arthas, enemy main base) means they can be used in more strategies, which is one way to increase their priority without increasing their "power", should generators having too much damage/effect become an issue. I was suggesting this solution too early; we haven't had a problem yet.

I am only thinking about Stormwail here. If smaller maps limit to 1-2 gens, then maybe there will be a meaningful choice when picking which to build. Keeping people in the habit of building gens isn't so bad either. I don't think it's a priority right now.

Reminders/ideas:
  • An anti-summon generator?
  • A perk which improves the strength of mercs you buy? Maybe make it a team bonus so people don't have to awkwardly pool.
  • Destroy/deactivate your own generators.

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