Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

An Aeon of Strife map for Warcraft 3
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 Post subject: Nix the Scroll
PostPosted: December 4th, 2009, 6:09 pm 
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...Exactly that. Get rid of the scroll. With it, get rid of the bonus starting gold and Tiny Obelisk Tower.

The race-for-the-obelisks at the beginning of Stormwail means that a team with beginners on it is severely disadvantaged unless those beginners can figure out the scroll within the first ten seconds of the game.

Yes, experienced players should win - but the tutorial mechanism here has backfired. Instead of making the game easier for new players, it's instead artificially steepened the learning curve.

The various things that have been done to remind people to read it - repeated tips, pink floating "Noob" over their head, etc. - somehow still don't make it through a lot of people's thick heads.

Instead, we could try "This item costs [x] gold to upgrade at your altar" at the bottom of the tooltip for all upgradeable items.


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 Post subject: Re: Nix the Scroll
PostPosted: December 4th, 2009, 7:12 pm 
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I always hated that miniature obelisk towers had a 500 gold value. People (both clueless beginners and experienced tacticians) would sell them and do lots of silly things afterwords.

You haven't experienced pain until you've seen a co-ordinated 3 man rush of the top/bottom lane (depending on which side of Stormwail you're on) supported by 3 waves of mercenary spawns, at level 7. It takes out the forward base for sure, and usually does horrible things to the rear base.


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 Post subject: Re: Nix the Scroll
PostPosted: December 4th, 2009, 7:47 pm 
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Yea, i've considered this problem myself. The scroll is suppose to be an importnat way to teach newbies about item tempering. However, it does fuck with the initial rush, not just newbies but anyone not loading a code.

On the flip side, even if tower building is delayed, newbies still won't know about it. So it may change other factors, but not this one. I'm not sure how to handle it.

DarnYak


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 Post subject: Re: Nix the Scroll
PostPosted: December 4th, 2009, 9:24 pm 
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There's three things that happen with the scroll:

1. The person already knows about it - they upgrade it at the start of the game and get on the road, only a few seconds delayed.
2. The person is new to the game, but sees it, reads it, and upgrades it. By the time they finish, they're maybe 30-40 seconds delayed. They move to category one next game.
3. The person is new to the game, doesn't see it, doesn't listen when it's pointed out, and goes into to the endgame without ever realizing there's anything to be done with it. They may or may not have the concept of upgrading items explained to them by their teammates.

...

In my experience, most games are made entirely of people from categories 1 and 3. 2's are few and far between.

Yes, tempering is an important concept that people need to know about...

But so are:
-Obelisks
-Mercenaries
-Summoning to Bases (to move around the map)
-Spawn Towers
-Crystal
-Energy/Generators
-Battleplans

And these things don't have scrolls to explain them, yet somehow people figure them out, or else their teammates explain it to them. Generally, people who don't figure out the scroll don't figure out this stuff either.

My point is that I think that most* people who are able enough learners to benefit from the scroll are able enough learners to benefit from their teammates' instructions as well, and the scroll's rewards do more harm than good.

*obviously, the scroll is going to reach some people who wouldn't be reached otherwise.

---

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On the flip side, even if tower building is delayed, newbies still won't know about it.


Those that are able to grasp the concept will get it when their teammates explain it to them. If their teammates don't explain it to them, that's their team's fault. But the critical problem isn't that it fails to teach beginners about obelisks, the trouble is that there's a free tower for each player that gets lost if the scroll doesn't get upgraded.

It's a per-player resource that never gets spent, and that's crippling. Perhaps even more so than a newbie who gets killed a lot. A beginner that doesn't spend their money on towers can still spend their money on other stuff. A beginner with a scroll isn't spending it on anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Nix the Scroll
PostPosted: December 5th, 2009, 2:11 am 
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I'd almost prefer all obelisks to be on the lanes (like the two in Mid, one in Rock Lane and one on the Inn Lane). Control could be done similar to Gloomite in that whoever is pushing well will be able to get energy from the Obelisks. This would remove the unpleasant penalty of having newbies on your team who don't upgrade their scroll, just won't listen, or don't share a language with you. The scroll for Stormwail could upgrade to a Scroll of Wealth, or some other beneficial but not required item.

I've got no idea how Yak feels about this, but 1.11c-e has really felt less and less about army combat and more about obelisk defense, and sniping the other team's obelisks whenever possible. The big initial rush for obelisks determines the winner on 95% of the games I've played on the hosting bots.

Overall, I'd also like to see the Tier 1 Mercenaries have a timer as well, to prevent rushing with them.


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 Post subject: Re: Nix the Scroll
PostPosted: December 5th, 2009, 3:44 am 
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I thought the scroll is an intentional mechanism meant to give an advantage to experienced players. sort of like generators, tower cores and teleporting.

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 Post subject: Re: Nix the Scroll
PostPosted: December 5th, 2009, 11:52 pm 
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Discombobulator wrote:
I thought the scroll is an intentional mechanism meant to give an advantage to experienced players. sort of like generators, tower cores and teleporting.


The issue is that there's no strategy which does not begin with, "First, upgrade your scroll if you don't get to skip it for rank." Generators, Tower Cores, and Teleporting are all choices. "Do I teleport now and where," "Do I build a crystal generator or replenishment generator," "Do I build catapults or wait for them to build so I can counter?" These all have nuances. Someone who's played a thousand times will be better (generally) than someone who's played a hundred, will be better than someone who's played ten, will be better than someone who's played only once before.

There's no "Skill" involved in upgrading the scroll. It's simple, binary, knowledge of mechanics. While it was intended to be a tutorial, it has instead become a trap that disadvantages new players. Players on their first game are disadvantaged, but everyone else is on equal footing. There are no nuances to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Nix the Scroll
PostPosted: December 6th, 2009, 12:58 am 
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Learn to ignore disco, 90% of the things he posts are sarcastic.

I'm just trying to figure out if he's actually from serbia or not.

DarnYak


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 Post subject: Re: Nix the Scroll
PostPosted: December 6th, 2009, 1:07 am 
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No.

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 Post subject: Re: Nix the Scroll
PostPosted: December 6th, 2009, 6:23 am 
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DarnYak wrote:
Learn to ignore disco, 90% of the things he posts are sarcastic.

I'm just trying to figure out if he's actually from serbia or not.

DarnYak


Have you tried looking at the IP addresses I use?

RSOG wrote:
Discombobulator wrote:
I thought the scroll is an intentional mechanism meant to give an advantage to experienced players. sort of like generators, tower cores and teleporting.


The issue is that there's no strategy which does not begin with, "First, upgrade your scroll if you don't get to skip it for rank." Generators, Tower Cores, and Teleporting are all choices. "Do I teleport now and where," "Do I build a crystal generator or replenishment generator," "Do I build catapults or wait for them to build so I can counter?" These all have nuances. Someone who's played a thousand times will be better (generally) than someone who's played a hundred, will be better than someone who's played ten, will be better than someone who's played only once before.

There's no "Skill" involved in upgrading the scroll. It's simple, binary, knowledge of mechanics. While it was intended to be a tutorial, it has instead become a trap that disadvantages new players. Players on their first game are disadvantaged, but everyone else is on equal footing. There are no nuances to it.


Face it, I'm right, you're wrong, and we both know it.

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 Post subject: Re: Nix the Scroll
PostPosted: December 6th, 2009, 10:55 am 
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Location: 192.168.0.1


Looks german to me!

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 Post subject: Re: Nix the Scroll
PostPosted: December 6th, 2009, 11:47 am 
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Discombobulator wrote:
DarnYak wrote:
Learn to ignore disco, 90% of the things he posts are sarcastic.

I'm just trying to figure out if he's actually from serbia or not.

DarnYak


Have you tried looking at the IP addresses I use?

You think I think those are your real IP addresses?

DarnYak


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 Post subject: Re: Nix the Scroll
PostPosted: December 6th, 2009, 12:25 pm 
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DarnYak wrote:
You think I think those are your real IP addresses?

DarnYak


Yeah, cause I obviously have proxies that sit on dynamic IP addresses from two Serbian ISPs. I'm flattered, honestly.


Dekar wrote:
Quote:
Location: 192.168.0.1


Looks german to me!


Good catch! My blood is 50% German.

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 Post subject: Re: Nix the Scroll
PostPosted: December 6th, 2009, 1:27 pm 
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Serbia does not have the internet

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 Post subject: Re: Nix the Scroll
PostPosted: December 6th, 2009, 2:16 pm 
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Reaper wrote:
Serbia does not have the internet


Americans don't have brains.

We win this one.

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