Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

An Aeon of Strife map for Warcraft 3
It is currently October 23rd, 2018, 5:54 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: September 14th, 2009, 7:34 pm 
Offline
Visitor
Visitor

Joined: September 19th, 2006, 6:12 pm
Posts: 32
In another thread, there was discussion about the usefulness of Arcane Generators. My thought is that Arcane Generators don't get used for three reasons.
The first is that they have to compete with Crystal Generators, and unless the generator either saves time (Replenishment) or saves money (Defense), it's very unlikely to be used. One could argue that Arcane does the latter, with its offensive spells to obliterate spawn waves. Unfortunately, due to its long wind up and recharge time, it's rarely seen this way.
The seconds is, naturally, its long wind up and recharge time. It feels like at least ten minutes to build and charge an Arcane generator. On Stormwail, the game is much too fluid for this to be viable. If you put it in a base that needs help, that base will be gone before it finishes.
Third and last, the spells all to the same thing, "Stop group of spawnies. Get money." This ability, while useful, doesn't help the hero that built them very much, unless they're the Incarnation or Arcane Mistress, and get some benefit for having units die near them. Shockwave could be used to siege bases, but it rarely does because it doesn't do enough damage to buildings for it to not get repaired.

I'm not sure what to do about number one. Two and three can be solved by adding more abilities. Here are a few that I've come up with. These would all have a fairly long range.

Cleanse: Dispels debuffs from target friendly unit or buffs from target enemy unit. Instantly destroys summoned units. (75 mana, short cooldown, cannot target invulnerable wards like Mind Fog)
Rune of Return: Instantly teleports your hero to the generator. (125 mana, short cooldown)
Healing Ray: Heals target hero for 66% of their maximum health. (150 mana, medium cooldown)
Invisibility Purge: Units around the target area are revealed and cannot turn invisible for 30 seconds. (200 mana, short cooldown, roughly the radius of a rank 2 Far Sight, uses the Dust of Appearance mechanic - not Reveal)
Null-Magic Field: For 10 seconds, all abilities used by hostile targets in the target area will have 50% reduced effect. (225 mana, medium-long cooldown, roughly the area of Mana Storm)
Invisibility: Target hero becomes invisible for 20 seconds. Attacking or using an ability will break the effect. (250 mana, medium-short cooldown)
Paralyze: Target hero moves and attacks at 90% reduced speed for six seconds. (300 mana, medium-long cooldown)
Spell Lock: Target hero cannot use abilities for eight seconds. (300 mana, medium-long cooldown)
Healing Ward: Summons an invulnerable healing ward which restores 5% health per second to all friendly units near it. Does not affect heroes. Lasts 20 seconds. (400 mana, long cooldown, ward can be dispelled)

It would be nice to have the cooldowns linked across all arcane generators, so people can't keep a hero Paralyzed/Spell Locked for longer than intended by having multiple generators, but I'm not sure if that's possible. If it is, then I think the energy cost of an Arcane Generator could also be reduced. It seems to me that the problem with them at first was that people could get a large pile of them and use them in bursts such that their combined effects would trump the power of any hero.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 17th, 2009, 8:09 pm 
Offline
Resident
Resident
User avatar

Joined: March 3rd, 2009, 7:09 am
Posts: 106
My thoughts...

Cleanse: Useful for those who don't have a dispel, but usually the Staff of Negation can accomplish the same effect, with major damage vs. summons too.
Rune of Return: Not necessary at all. Normally, people will build generators in bases, or in a safe location far from the front lines. Sure it can be nice to have an anchor point in an obscure location, but too often people can just buy a scroll of travel or whatever its called and teleport anytime, anywhere. Not to mention just pay 100 gold to get to a base on the double.
Healing Ray: This is an outrageously powerful healing spell, and one I feel should only be unlocked late in the game. The cost should be higher than this to recover fully two thirds of your maximum health. I would turn this down altogether if it also recovered mana, but its passable.
Invisibility Purge: Me likey. The ability to detect invisibles with the click of a button is a good one, but one that is also available to a few heroes, namely the High Oracle and the Master of the Hunt. If you have the High Oracle in particular on your team, there is no need to use this at all. Not to mention the fact that we already have the Amulet of Detection, which is a zero-cooldown, very cheap permanent dust of appearance.
Null-Magic Field: A full 10 seconds of half damage...? I don't know why, but something tells me that something about this spell could use a tweak. However, as spells from the Arcane Generator are generally quite powerful, this could be useful.
Invisibility: Instant invisibility from long range? The mana cost makes it respectable, as does the cooldown, so this could be good for saving an ally that's in trouble. I'd call this one good, and approved.
Paralyze: 90% reduced speed? Can you say "Guaranteed kill"? Normally paralyze means you can't move at all, not move more slowly. Perhaps change this to a stun, or would that be too strong?
Spell Lock: An eight second silence from long range is killer when dealing with certain heroes that have to rely on their skills, like the Arboreal Crusader for example. The only problem is that all they have to do is dispel it with an item and there goes 300 mana you won't see for another 300 seconds.
Healing Ward: 5% of your max hitpoints per second heal? Well crap, I mean even a level 3 outpost only gives a 3% aura -- but that's both health AND mana. I don't really know what to say about this one, but I guess its passable.

_________________
BOOOHNE~STORRRRRRRRM


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 17th, 2009, 9:23 pm 
Offline
Visitor
Visitor

Joined: September 19th, 2006, 6:12 pm
Posts: 32
My thoughts behind each of them, as they relate to your comments:

Cleanse: The staff of negation has a rather long cooldown. Wands of negation cost gold. The short cooldown and low mana cost of this lets the generator remove very specific - usually hero-targetting - buffs and debuffs like Devouring Plague, Ion Surge, Anti Magic Potion, Rune Shell, Shadowsight, etc. It has a 75 point mana cost, so if you're running strictly on your generator, you'll be able to use it only once every minute or so, which is considerably less frequently than most of these (or most other dispels) can be cast, but still enough to get out out of trouble, especially if you build up a charge to run off of.
Rune of Return: The idea was that this is instant. A "Get out of jail free" card, if you will. While teleporting to a base takes six seconds during which you can't be attacked, this one can get you out of trouble if you're at 60 health and have an infiltrator on your tail.
Healing Ray: This spell, along with Rune of Return, is designed to frustrate hero killers. It doesn't restore mana for very good reason: The Arcane Generator shouldn't push the Replenishment Generator out of a job. That said, you're right, the mana cost is probably too low. On a second look, I'd bump this one up to 200 and drop invisibility to 175.
Invisibility Purge: Amulet of Detection and Dust of Appearance are much better options than this; Invisibility Purge is not meant to replace them. If you're against an enemy who habitually uses invisibility, you should have dust or an amulet - on the other hand, if you're caught by surprise by invisibility (from a potion or another arcane generator), this gives you an (expensive) one-time out.
Null-Magic Field: Half damage unless they move out of the field. It's less than half as good as a max rank Mind Fog (because it doesn't stop dispels, buffs, etc), and can be used considerably less frequently. It's only good because it's available to all heroes, doesn't cost skill points, and can be cast in lanes where you aren't.
Invisibility: I would also like to add that this one should have the same visual effect as Rune of Return.
Paralyze: If you can kill an enemy within six seconds, you don't need Paralyze. It's not a guaranteed kill. Look at Ion Surge, Infernal Binding, Gravebind, Grasping Treant, and probably others. If you can force them to retreat and then paralyze them to catch them, you've spent 300 mana to catch them - not to win the fight against them. If it tips the odds in an even match and lets you win, then great... ...but Healing Ray probably would have done just as well for less mana. The primary use would be to prevent them from running away. It's not a stun because if they want to use spells (and aren't melee ranged), they still can. And it's not a root because a lot of escape spells don't work when movement is disabled.
Spell Lock: If they dispel it, that means they were ready for it. If they were ready for it, it should be countered. That said, in a surprise attack, this could give your team a chance to not suffer casualties when ganging up on a powerful hero killer. It also prevents heroes like the Infiltrator, Swashy, Fenris, or the Martyr from using their escape powers if they're already trapped. Like just about every other spell I've got here with the possible exception of Healing Ray, it's situational. There already are silence abilities with similar durations: Mind Fog and Thunderstrike, for example. I also should point out Grasping Treant again. You'd be surprised what is NOT a guaranteed when fighting an even match.
Healing Ward: Comparing its healing to a base is a bad analogy - the ward only heals nonheroes, while the base only heals heroes. This one is the most straightforward of the bunch: You drop it on a bunch of units, and it keeps them alive and at full health for 20 seconds. Good when pushing or when stopping pushes. Compared to a well-aimed Shockwave (which is only 50 mana more), I think it's balanced

Good point on Healing Ray. With the costs as they were, Invisibility probably wouldn't see much use. I'm interested in hearing what you and everyone else thinks about the others after these clarifications.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 18th, 2009, 5:27 am 
Offline
Wanderer
Wanderer

Joined: September 8th, 2009, 2:25 pm
Posts: 8
First of all I agree the arcane generator needs some changes and what you said in your initial post is true. However some of your suggestions just seem to strong for me. It would force a player to get one of these and discourage PvP.

Cleanse: Instantly destroying summoned units is kinda op while this would be a nice counter to BP and his summons. Its effect on heros that are dependent on their buffs/debuffs/summon is just to high. It would cancel out an Ice Spinner making him totally useless as spire would be destroyed and Ice lance dispelled. Their are many others heros who are dependent on their buffs and summons like Forlorn Matyr, BP, Defiler just to name a few. With low cost like this you can too easy harass some heros as they will have no chance of fighting back especially as this can be casted at grand range and does not need your hero nearby unlike dispel wards. I suggestion making it some kind of last resort dispel increasing its mana costs drastically to 400 or 500. Or give it a cast time of lets say 2 seconds.

Rune of Return: This would be op again and end any PvP. If you get targeted woosh and your save. Too powerful. I suggest giving it a 2 second cast time or a 6 second cast which will not break on taking damage. Very high mana cost like 600 could also balance this out.

Healing Ray: 66% is strong too strong I think. This would also discourage PvP. I suggest removing it.

Invisibility Purge: I think that one is okay. Their are only few heros who regularly go invisible but I guess this would add a nice counter to them.

Null-Magic Field: This is okay but again this is would only effect casters and leave the high damage dealer heros just like cleanse. I think they should be affected by that one too. Maybe reducing Hero auto attack damage by 50% as well.

Invisibility: Don't know it has some high costs so it might be balanced and would be a nice alternative to the invisibility potions. But then again this opens another escape path for a hero.

Paralyze: I'm not sure about this one. This would open a easy to use ambush which would be hell to counter. Lets say a Forlon Matyr uses this on an enemy hero who is currently inside a crowd. He could rush in their within these 6 seconds and use his abilities to kill the now helpless hero. I personally think that a spell that catches heros who try to run away is not needed. But then again it doesn't seem to op.

Spell Lock: I think this one is mostly okay.

Healing Ward: This one seem okay as well. 5% isn't that much as it may seem however in conjuration with aberration of the Gargoyle this could be most devastating. Maybe changing its effect so it heals for 40 HP.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 18th, 2009, 12:13 pm 
Offline
Regular
Regular
User avatar

Joined: August 8th, 2009, 9:49 pm
Posts: 72
Location: Tir Tairngire
I wouldn't mind seeing Arcane Generators get some sort of aura in a wide range (2000 or so would be fine by me, if not, 1500 to still make sure it could cover enemy catapults if it's built near the front of the base). A base equipped with an arcane generator should be scary to attempt to take out. These auras could increase in power as the generator gains more energy, so you could use spells from it while de-powering your aura. I'm not sure what I would like to see for aura selection, either switchable like Rue's Crown'o'Auras for a small mana cost, or something that is set at the time of construction and can't be changed. I've got a bunch of ideas, some of which might even be good and/or useful!

Defensive:
A lowered damage aura (only applies to creeps)
A lowered attack speed aura (again, only applies to creeps)
Mana drain aura
Chance to reflect spells and/or ranged attacks
Lowered evocation damage aura
Anti-summon aura (damage to summons every few seconds)

Utility:
Dispelling aura (Chance for positive buffs to be removed from enemy units, and debuffs to be removed from allied units)

Offensive:
Critical strike aura for allied troops


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 18th, 2009, 4:52 pm 
Offline
Visitor
Visitor

Joined: September 19th, 2006, 6:12 pm
Posts: 32
Mm... I think there's a theoretical disconnect between the way I see combat and the way some of the rest of you do.
When two heroes fight, there are four possible outcomes:
One hero is forced to retreat: The defeated hero is taken off the line of combat. They do not gain EXP for about a minute while retreated. They likely lose 200 gold (to teleport back to their main base to heal and then teleport back out to the field). They also have a chance to visit their altar and shops.
One hero kills the other: As above, but the winning team also gets 10 crystal each and the killer (if they're a hero) gets 400 gold. The loser loses a maximum of 100 gold because they do not have to teleport back to their main base. They are also out of commission for slightly longer, and have a permanently increased respawn time. If a deathblow is involved, there may or may not be a destroyed pull - depending on if the hero had time to partially retreat before being killed.
Both heroes are forced to retreat: Most frequently happens when fighting computer heroes. Neither hero is sure of their victory, so both step off the line. Just like the first, except that both heroes lose for it.
Both heroes die: Like the second, only both teams get the rewards.

I don't see a guaranteed escape as a huge advantage, because most of the time, people can escape perfectly well on their own power. Rune of Return and Invisibility take this assumption. Their inverse, Paralyze, costs significantly more because it's easier to run away than it is to catch someone who's running away.

Second: Arcane Generators are horrendously expensive. Crystal Generators generate 1 crystal every 30 (is it 30?) seconds per eight energy. Arcane Generators get 30 mana every 30 seconds (once again, I could be wrong here) per twelve energy. In terms of opportunity cost, consider that 20 mana = 1 crystal. These abilities are balanced under that assumption.

Actually, under that analogy, most of these spells are wildly overpriced. Consider the possibility that these spells could be cast from the Altar but cost the equivalent value of crystal, thereby making crystal generators double as Arcane Generators. If Cleanse cost 3 crystal, it would never get cast - and it costs closer to 4. If Rune of Return cost 5 crystal, it would never get cast - and it costs closer to 6.

Cleanse can lock down a defiler or icespinner for one minute out of every five, but in return for that advantage, you've given up a potential 15 crystal that you could have gotten in those five minutes. Heck, even if the Arcane Generator gets TWO mana per second, that's still giving up a potential two crystal every time you cast the cheapest spell.

Healing Ray, Rune of Return, and Invisibility discourages PvP against someone who built an Arcane Generator. On the other hand, if they're still holding on to that Arcane Generator and actually using its spells, imagine how much crystal they've missed out on. Would they be PVPable if they'd gotten Crystal instead? Every Rune of Return is six crystal they don't have. Every Invisibility is eight. Every Healing Ray is 10. Every Paralyze is 15 - but it might result in a kill to get them (and their teammates) a refund on that. Still, they might have gotten that kill anyway if they'd spent that 15 crystal on improving their hero, and then they'd have the equivalent of 25 crystal, counting the upgrades.

These spells are powerful because they HAVE to be powerful as long as Crystal Generators are in play. They seem overpowered because we all take Crystal Generators for granted. I'm not sure I've managed to make them strong enough, even with as powerful as the spells are. How cheap would they have to be in order to still get cast if they cost crystal instead of energy+time to power the generator?

Quote:
I wouldn't mind seeing Arcane Generators get some sort of aura in a wide range (2000 or so would be fine by me, if not, 1500 to still make sure it could cover enemy catapults if it's built near the front of the base). A base equipped with an arcane generator should be scary to attempt to take out. These auras could increase in power as the generator gains more energy, so you could use spells from it while de-powering your aura. I'm not sure what I would like to see for aura selection, either switchable like Rue's Crown'o'Auras for a small mana cost, or something that is set at the time of construction and can't be changed. I've got a bunch of ideas, some of which might even be good and/or useful!


I actually had some similar thoughts, but I didn't want to put them on the Arcane Gen. I'd rather see the Arcane Generator doing long range, short-lived effects than give it short-range perpetual defensive powers. There's still a few more Gens that need to be brought up to par, though, and space to add an Aura Generator once the others are seeing more use.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 19th, 2009, 1:50 am 
Offline
Jelly Doughnut
User avatar

Joined: May 27th, 2006, 8:13 am
Posts: 1431
Location: Germany
Nice comparing the crystal and arcane gen there.

So a shockwave costs 20 crystal, for a more dubious, shortterm effect.

_________________
<EotA@Azeroth> YAKS GO MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Dekar: the ultimate ocean themed hero should buff and depend on spawn waves!
DarnYak: why is that
Dekar: WAVES
Dekar: :D
DarnYak: i was afraid that was the answer


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 19th, 2009, 1:04 pm 
Offline
Visitor
Visitor

Joined: September 19th, 2006, 6:12 pm
Posts: 32
Dekar wrote:
Nice comparing the crystal and arcane gen there.

So a shockwave costs 20 crystal, for a more dubious, shortterm effect.


Yes.

Which, admittedly, can be a more efficient crystal->gold conversion than selling crystal to the goblins, but is still very much less useful than actual hero upgrades.

[Edit] Most laughable of them all is probably the Bomb Generator... but that's another thread for another time.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group