Race-only talents (sort of)

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Race-only talents (sort of)

#1 Post by DarkNemesis »

Here's a thought for Yak.

What if you gave each faction a unique bonus? I've heard mention of people wanting race-only items. I personally think this is rather pointless, especially now with the all -hero and random races modes.

This could also be an appetizer for upcoming unit upgrades, who knows. This would also encourage people to play with their race only instead of using "random races" all the time, not that its much different, just fitting.

Undead
gives units and heroes a % upon attack to acquire frost armor for 30 sec. Armor increase is 25%?

Elves
Gives units and heroes a % to deal an additional 20% on evocation spell dmg for 25 sec.

Creeps
Gives all units and heroes a % for a 10% boost in HP for 1 min. Cooldown is 3 min.

Orcs (Fel Horde)
Grants all units a 15% boost in attack dmg. Heroes get a life-stealing attack for 35 sec.

Just some thoughts.
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#2 Post by Discombobulator »

That's racist.
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#3 Post by CryptLord1234 »

That would be a bitch to balance out correctly.

It's walking a very fine line between useless and overpowered. A 25% evocation damage bonus to Infiltrator would mean NOTHING, while the same bonus to the Divine Wizard would be incredibly good. So it goes with the rest of the races. I don't think this would be a terrible idea, but maybe just to give the creeps the bonus, not the heroes.
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#4 Post by DarkNemesis »

CryptLord1234 wrote:That would be a bitch to balance out correctly.

It's walking a very fine line between useless and overpowered. A 25% evocation damage bonus to Infiltrator would mean NOTHING, while the same bonus to the Divine Wizard would be incredibly good. So it goes with the rest of the races. I don't think this would be a terrible idea, but maybe just to give the creeps the bonus, not the heroes.
Come to think of it. I think this is a better idea. I'll work on it and change some stuff, latter.

Or maybe you could have a talent that takes 100% or 75% of the mana cost of a spell and converts it into dmg. Who knows, I'll brainstorm.
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#5 Post by Perhaps »

Yak himself has been pondering on the concept of segregating army similarities, Fel Orc being a test product of that. This kind of goes into the "Army category" since it would be global.

You can't jump to conclusions CryptLord1234... First of all it always wagers on the cost of it. Like the getting control of your skeletons Talent for the Arcane Mistress, in theory it's a good skill because you'll get money for their kills and you can utilize them better, however it costs 40 cunt gobbling crystals for something that essentially the Incarnation gets but for much cheaper (Money per soul talent). Also, if I remember right, Mines are evocation, and mines are an essential part of the way I play Infiltrator. I believe Swashbuckler and Tactician are the only two heroes on High Elves that don't have Evocation damage.

Though don't count on getting anyone to back the idea of global hero upgrades. I've already pitched out the idea of race only artifacts and items, which for whatever reason it wasn't liked.

In any case I wouldn't go with 20%, I'd go with a lower initial, with a somewhat gradual climb per level of the "Global Talent". It'd have to be a fairly high cost to get to it, for a fair cost for that, which just wouldn't fly because crystals are wanted to be or needed to been spent soon as possible so your hero can be improved soon as possible.

An issue that would be there for "Global Talents" is it's to be assumed they're pool for, though not always the case, just the more common sense of the case... For the talent to not be super good in one situation and shitty the other, cost would have to scale based on how many players... Hopefully the obvious 5 players is optimal, 1 player is worst if it were the same upgrade. Unfortunately, but it can be worked around, cost doesn't change dynamically or at least I don't believe so. Assuming it doesn't that'd require a dummy unit/upgrade/item purchase for every player count setup on a team, that or it be free, put the cost formula in the tooltip and function it via trigger.
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#6 Post by CryptLord1234 »

Perhaps wrote:Yak himself has been pondering on the concept of segregating army similarities, Fel Orc being a test product of that. This kind of goes into the "Army category" since it would be global.

You can't jump to conclusions CryptLord1234... First of all it always wagers on the cost of it. Like the getting control of your skeletons Talent for the Arcane Mistress, in theory it's a good skill because you'll get money for their kills and you can utilize them better, however it costs 40 cunt gobbling crystals for something that essentially the Incarnation gets but for much cheaper (Money per soul talent). Also, if I remember right, Mines are evocation, and mines are an essential part of the way I play Infiltrator. I believe Swashbuckler and Tactician are the only two heroes on High Elves that don't have Evocation damage.
Well. To be fair, you're right about the cost, which is why I said that it's walking a fine line between balanced and OP. I don't THINK Mines are Evocation, but my point still stands as an example. It changes depending on the heroes. Some get a bigger bonus than the others.
Perhaps wrote:Though don't count on getting anyone to back the idea of global hero upgrades. I've already pitched out the idea of race only artifacts and items, which for whatever reason it wasn't liked.

In any case I wouldn't go with 20%, I'd go with a lower initial, with a somewhat gradual climb per level of the "Global Talent". It'd have to be a fairly high cost to get to it, for a fair cost for that, which just wouldn't fly because crystals are wanted to be or needed to been spent soon as possible so your hero can be improved soon as possible.
The numbers could be worked out; for now, we're just talking about the concept, which is a fairly good one.
Perhaps wrote:An issue that would be there for "Global Talents" is it's to be assumed they're pool for, though not always the case, just the more common sense of the case... For the talent to not be super good in one situation and shitty the other, cost would have to scale based on how many players... Hopefully the obvious 5 players is optimal, 1 player is worst if it were the same upgrade. Unfortunately, but it can be worked around, cost doesn't change dynamically or at least I don't believe so. Assuming it doesn't that'd require a dummy unit/upgrade/item purchase for every player count setup on a team, that or it be free, put the cost formula in the tooltip and function it via trigger.
Cost wouldn't be too hard to scale, I don't think. Tell the person how much it costs, then rather than have it directly take the gold away, have a trigger check if the buyer has the money, and then remove it if so. (In other words, your last sentence.)
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#7 Post by Perhaps »

Talants are bought with crystals. It's not just a matter of rather it can or can't be done. It's a matter of it being hideous with the overall game's interface theme and the work it may take (I don't think it'd be much, but that's me) that if Yak would be willing to do that. This is factoring out him liking the idea or not and assuming he does.
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#8 Post by Discombobulator »

Perhaps wrote:Yak himself has been pondering on the concept of segregating army similarities, Fel Orc being a test product of that. This kind of goes into the "Army category" since it would be global.

You can't jump to conclusions CryptLord1234... First of all it always wagers on the cost of it. Like the getting control of your skeletons Talent for the Arcane Mistress, in theory it's a good skill because you'll get money for their kills and you can utilize them better, however it costs 40 cunt gobbling crystals for something that essentially the Incarnation gets but for much cheaper (Money per soul talent). Also, if I remember right, Mines are evocation, and mines are an essential part of the way I play Infiltrator. I believe Swashbuckler and Tactician are the only two heroes on High Elves that don't have Evocation damage.

Though don't count on getting anyone to back the idea of global hero upgrades. I've already pitched out the idea of race only artifacts and items, which for whatever reason it wasn't liked.

In any case I wouldn't go with 20%, I'd go with a lower initial, with a somewhat gradual climb per level of the "Global Talent". It'd have to be a fairly high cost to get to it, for a fair cost for that, which just wouldn't fly because crystals are wanted to be or needed to been spent soon as possible so your hero can be improved soon as possible.

An issue that would be there for "Global Talents" is it's to be assumed they're pool for, though not always the case, just the more common sense of the case... For the talent to not be super good in one situation and shitty the other, cost would have to scale based on how many players... Hopefully the obvious 5 players is optimal, 1 player is worst if it were the same upgrade. Unfortunately, but it can be worked around, cost doesn't change dynamically or at least I don't believe so. Assuming it doesn't that'd require a dummy unit/upgrade/item purchase for every player count setup on a team, that or it be free, put the cost formula in the tooltip and function it via trigger.
You do realize that just because it's possible to do in the Warcraft 3 engine, it doesn't mean your idea is even remotely intelligent?
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#9 Post by Perhaps »

You do realize that just because you do selective reading, it doesn't mean you're even remotely intelligent?

I never said "it should be done," I'm just saying it's out there. Furthermore, I stated all of its cons and why it wouldn't be or shouldn't be done. So don't give me that "lack of insight" bullshit.
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#10 Post by DarkNemesis »

Discombobulator wrote:
Perhaps wrote:Yak himself has been pondering on the concept of segregating army similarities, Fel Orc being a test product of that. This kind of goes into the "Army category" since it would be global.

You can't jump to conclusions CryptLord1234... First of all it always wagers on the cost of it. Like the getting control of your skeletons Talent for the Arcane Mistress, in theory it's a good skill because you'll get money for their kills and you can utilize them better, however it costs 40 cunt gobbling crystals for something that essentially the Incarnation gets but for much cheaper (Money per soul talent). Also, if I remember right, Mines are evocation, and mines are an essential part of the way I play Infiltrator. I believe Swashbuckler and Tactician are the only two heroes on High Elves that don't have Evocation damage.

Though don't count on getting anyone to back the idea of global hero upgrades. I've already pitched out the idea of race only artifacts and items, which for whatever reason it wasn't liked.

In any case I wouldn't go with 20%, I'd go with a lower initial, with a somewhat gradual climb per level of the "Global Talent". It'd have to be a fairly high cost to get to it, for a fair cost for that, which just wouldn't fly because crystals are wanted to be or needed to been spent soon as possible so your hero can be improved soon as possible.

An issue that would be there for "Global Talents" is it's to be assumed they're pool for, though not always the case, just the more common sense of the case... For the talent to not be super good in one situation and shitty the other, cost would have to scale based on how many players... Hopefully the obvious 5 players is optimal, 1 player is worst if it were the same upgrade. Unfortunately, but it can be worked around, cost doesn't change dynamically or at least I don't believe so. Assuming it doesn't that'd require a dummy unit/upgrade/item purchase for every player count setup on a team, that or it be free, put the cost formula in the tooltip and function it via trigger.
You do realize that just because it's possible to do in the Warcraft 3 engine, it doesn't mean your idea is even remotely intelligent?
Discombobulator, I would appreciate you keeping questionable posts to yourself. I really don't want a flame fest here. Perhaps has been very helpful, alot more than you have. So ease up, eh?

Oh, and perhaps, I thinks mines are physical. Thanks for the tips/thoughts!
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#11 Post by Discombobulator »

Now, most people would just recommend you to slit your wrists.

However, I'm a bit more informed in those matters, and I'll advise you against it. Why? The thing is, the blood flow through the forearm arteries is so low that you'd take hours to die, which would diminish your chances of successful suicide significantly.

You should rather slit your neck. That way you'll cut the jugular vein, which should ensure your death within minutes.

Actually, you should make a deep cut and get the common carotid arteries. If you get both of them, all blood flow to your brain will stop which will get you unconscious in several seconds, and braindead within 2-3 minutes. Way before those nasty paramedics can come and bandage you. Not like a bandage would help for such a cut, anyway.

I hope this helps. I wish you a successful endeavour.
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#12 Post by DarkNemesis »

Discombobulator wrote:Now, most people would just recommend you to slit your wrists.

However, I'm a bit more informed in those matters, and I'll advise you against it. Why? The thing is, the blood flow through the forearm arteries is so low that you'd take hours to die, which would diminish your chances of successful suicide significantly.

You should rather slit your neck. That way you'll cut the jugular vein, which should ensure your death within minutes.

Actually, you should make a deep cut and get the common carotid arteries. If you get both of them, all blood flow to your brain will stop which will get you unconscious in several seconds, and braindead within 2-3 minutes. Way before those nasty paramedics can come and bandage you. Not like a bandage would help for such a cut, anyway.

I hope this helps. I wish you a successful endeavour.
Stop clogging up my thread with your useless shit. Seriously.
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#13 Post by Tehw00tz »

Stop clogging up my forums with your useless shit. Seriously.
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#14 Post by DarkNemesis »

Tehw00tz wrote:Stop clogging up my forums with your useless shit. Seriously.
I like how you attack my posts and defend you troll friends who have absolutely no relevance to anything. Keep it up, Tehwootz.

I'll be sure to mention you and Discombobulator to the mod (Reaper). I have already mentioned Jamn.
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#15 Post by jamn455 »

I like McNuggets.
Line 'em up.
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#16 Post by Tehw00tz »

I actually like Chicken Selects more myself when it comes to chicken from McDonalds.
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#17 Post by Discombobulator »

jamn455 wrote:I like McNuggets.
Only with barbecue sauce.
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#18 Post by Reaper »

Thank you jamn, for changing the subject from flames to chicken

Thank you wootz, for you propagated this.

Lets all be adults here and not talk about fire all the time, flames aren't cool, moltres isn't cool, get over it


Everyone may talk about chicken, and everyone has their own opionon on chicken. Just because you think mcdonalds has the best chicken does not mean that anyone who disagrees and likes burger king chicken is flaming you (although they may or may not have flame-broiled chicken).
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#19 Post by Dekar »

One minute reaction time. :shock:

Iceshields are impossible to balance because they just screw up every melee hero and leave alone the ranged and casters.
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Re: Race-only talents (sort of)

#20 Post by Discombobulator »

Dekar wrote:One minute reaction time. :shock:

Iceshields are impossible to balance because they just screw up every melee hero and leave alone the ranged and casters.
On the other hand, Chain Frost/Frost Nova combo pwns the ranged guys more then melees, as melee almost always has more hp.

I really don't understand why people don't take Frost Armor on Lich. It's 12 armor on level 4, which is more then a plate mail (priced at 1400) gives. If you have 1500 hp like you should around level 16, that's around 1000 extra hp versus physical attacks.
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