Grim hag vs. ascendant

[Reaper]

Allow me to whine for a minute: someone explain the sense it makes that grim hag should have 2 spells that are useless against gargoyle... I can understand swoop because it doesn't make logical sense for that to hit flying, unless they are netted, but backlash should be able to be cast on any hero, regardless of flying or not.

[A_New_Dawn]

Well remember Ascendant can't hit TS or RD on Grim Hag (pretty sure anyway) so its actually even, but yeah, she should be able to use Backlash too.

[Reaper]

You could RD and TS on a netted hag, so it's less than fair. Also taken into the account the physical actions of the skills themselves, swoop, RD, and TS shouldn't hit flying, but backlash should.

[A_New_Dawn]

Can't you do the same on a netted Ascendant? Swoop and Backlash...

[Ion]

You could RD and TS on a netted hag, so it's less than fair. Also taken into the account the physical actions of the skills themselves, swoop, RD, and TS shouldn't hit flying, but backlash should.

I actually meant to bring this up thanks. No you can't. For whatever reason, RD and TS don't work on a netted Harpy. I tried multiple times inbetween two pubs and it did nothing both times. I was ticked off, me and the Harpy ended up just having epic sky duels sans skills.

[A_New_Dawn]

That sucks, guess GH should aviod Ascendant.

[Ion]

Other way around I think. GH attacks alot faster then Ascendant : (

[Reaper]

It's the difference between an agi and a str hero

[A_New_Dawn]

Reaper you beat me to the punch.

while GH attacks faster, Ascendant can have nearly 3x more hp, and he hits harder (I think). Plus he got more armor.

Ascendant would easily win in a just attack dmg duel verses GH.

[jamn455]

Strength = Life
Agility = Armor

Harpy has more agility than ascendant = more armor.

Any hero can have alot of life with strength upgrades and rings.

That is all.

[A_New_Dawn]

You would need alot of AGi to increase your armor, and a knights would wipe the purpose of AGi on GH.

Armors not the factor Jamn, HP is.

[Soulbourne]

I think it's his opinion that infuriates people, not his mind games like a troll or me....

[jamn455]

Oh and I guess the fact that Harpy can Blind and net+swoop ascendant has no impact on the battle.

[A_New_Dawn]

um, maybe you should read ALL the posts man, we just got done saying you CANT swoop ascendant, and a netted ascendant wouldn't be any different from a noraml one against GH. So no, it wouldn't have any impact im afraid.

So you honestly think a 5000hp Ascendant will lose to 1400hp GH? hmm, you've got courage ill grant you that. Look jamn, mass HP pretty much over rules AS and Armor when spells are not used or cant be used. Also Ascendant has more armor to begin with (like twice as much) and if specd for tanking (highly likely) will probably have far more armor than GH. So GH will have a AS advantage, while Ascendant will have an Armor, HP, HP regen, AD, advantage.

Ascendant is specd 2 ways usually, although i sometimes do 1/2 STr 1/2 AGi. INt spec is wastefull and pointless.

mass STr (tanking, and armor is a must-have for effective tanking).
or
mass AGi, you said yourself AGi will boost armor, your right, so either way GH loses in armor increase, and overall, she big time loses. Ascendant is just too strong dude, thats all. Not trying to flame you or say harpy sucks, shes an awsome hero, does incredible amounts of dmg, but she just cant take Ascendant 1v1.

[randomd00d]

Its kind of hard to say one way or another, due to the number of variables.

Keep in mind that AGI gains from items are a bit more efficient than STR. (orb of skill, agi gloves, helm of agi > rings of strength).

I will say that the armor gains are pretty much neglible. 100AGI = +10armor = 20% effective HP gain. Thats not terrible, but not huge either for 100 points. A cheapo item will provide similar or more armor, as will several buffs.

100 points of AGI also crank attack speed by 100%. Of course, if you already have 100AGI, then you gain 50% more attack speed. (you go from double base rate to triple)... so it has diminishing returns.

100 points of STR is 2000HP. Thats a big chunk, but percentage wise, diminishes also in that the more you have already, the less percentage gain you get from each new point.

Starting armor of each hero can be discarded, as it is only a few points difference.

Starting damage is significant, but becomes less so over time. 50dmg vs 30dmg is huge at level 1, but 250 vs 230 is not so big of a deal lategame.

Base attack speed of each hero is the most underlooked aspect. A 30% advantage by one hero means that ALL AGI will increase the speed of THAT base attack by 1% per point. 100% more of a fast speed >>> 100% more of a slow speed.

It should be noted that the higher AGI of hag enables her to escape or pursue with ease. 100AGI advantage would be a 50% base move speed boost. This means, she can run when weak, and attack when AS is weak, which is a very big advantage.

And finally, healing effects like the potion greatly favor the lower HP but more damaging Hag, over the slower-hitting but much more HPs Ascendent. This is because 500HP for the pot for example will be a bigger percentage gain. In other words, for a duel between the two, 500HP will negate Ascentant attacks for say 10 seconds, whereas it would only negate Hag's faster attacks for 3 or 4 seconds.





TL;DR version: With equal crystal, items, and level, both fliers will put up more of an even fight than you might think mid to late game. In any case, its really hard to analyse.

[A_New_Dawn]

Hmm, first of all you did a nice analogy random, as usual, but some of your arguments are questionable. Such as a saying "starting armor can be discarded" for instance, is simply wrong man, don't mean to flame, allow me to explain myself.

Take Sorrow Leige and Aeromancess.

Sorrow Leige starts with 17 armor (I think).
Aeromancess starts with like 5 or 6.

So SL has 3x more armor than Aero, slightly more than a few points, and is taking aleast half the amount of physical dmg Aero is taking (3x more armor doesn't mean 3x more physical dmg reduction, its somewhere between 2 and 3 I think). granted, with certain heroes starting armor isn't all that important, but when comparing Tanks to light AGi or INt hereos, it certainly is.

Yes, I have to agree here too, the armor increase from AGi is not great, you would have to have 200+ to start to take advantage of that.

Knights armor +60 armor takes 1 slot.
6 AGi rings +60 armor takes 6 slots.

Bottom line, no one buys AGi for the armor, its wastefull when 1 item will do the same as 6 in terms of armor increase.

GH will be able to attack alot faster, true, but if Ascendant has a ton of armor shes naturally going to have to attack faster in order to compensate for his huge amounts of armor.

I guess it would be a toss up under certain circumstances, but overall, I think Ascendant would come out on top, but certainly not unscathed.

Also random, GH is arguably the weakest hero in the game. While Ascendant isn't terribly strong for an STr based hero, he flys, giving him a huge advantage over other heroes. My little brother is Immensley fond of Ascendant, and reguraly gets him to over 5k hit points in our games. (we usually don't use obelisks in 2 players so we have alot more money for Items.)

Anyway, hope this was helpful, and made sense.

[jamn455]

You cant include items in these discussions since both sides can get whatever items they want.
Harpy could get just as much armor and nearly as much strength with the advantage of a little attack speed while the ascendant had a little advantage of hp.

[Reaper]

By the way, would someone like to tell me why we are talking about fully equipped heroes fighting each other?

[A_New_Dawn]

You cant include items in these discussions since both sides can get whatever items they want.
Harpy could get just as much armor and nearly as much strength with the advantage of a little attack speed while the ascendant had a little advantage of hp.

Ascendant would have a large advantage on HP, not little.

And if items are not included, Ascendant would win that much easier.

[A_New_Dawn]

By the way, would someone like to tell me why we are talking about fully equipped heroes fighting each other?

Um, maybe because the thread says GRIM HAG VS. ASCENDANT. And were not exaclty talking about "fully equiped".

[Reaper]

I made the thread, and if you'll read the first post you'll notice that you've totally derailed it.

That being said, I think you're knowledge of the game speaks for itself here.

Also random, GH is arguably the weakest hero in the game. While Ascendant isn't terribly strong for an STr based hero, he flys, giving him a huge advantage over other heroes. My little brother is Immensley fond of Ascendant, and reguraly gets him to over 5k hit points in our games. (we usually don't use obelisks in 2 players so we have alot more money for Items.)

Dear God, someone, please take it from here.

[A_New_Dawn]

Can't fight your own battles?

Also, the Items post is my thread so stop telling me how and when I can post it. -_-

I said we had alots more money for items, that doesn't mean every slot was filled, your forgetting spawns, rebuilds, repairs.

[Soulbourne]

So they turn it into a no core, no generator game, thus derailing the initial purpose of it....your point? If it weren't possible, wouldn't be a flexible a game. And who likes a "do this or you both lose" game....Although it then becomes hero/merc game...

[randomd00d]

Thanks Dawn. A fair assessment.

To rebutt slightly, what is the diff between ascendant and hag's starting armor? Its less than 5 I am sure. I didnt mean to make a blanket statement there, just within the context of the Hag vs Ascendent discussion.


Another comment is that according to the Formulas Wiki, armor in EOTA is 1/2 that of Ladder, in that every 1 armor is equal to a 2% increase in life. So 100 armor should mean 200% more effective life, thus 100 armor would correspond to a um... 66.66666 percent decrease in damage taken. (so it takes 300 HP to do 100 actual HPs)


Therefore, 100 AGI = only 10 points of armor! = 20% more life effectively.


Even with 6 MAXED rings of AGI (which would be dumb in reality due to better Gloves, Helms, Skill Orb available) that would be 180AGI = 18 armor!

18 armor kind of blows compared to the knights helm you mentioned.

(are my formula references wrong?)


The wild cards are that Ascendant can eat damage from other sources a LOT better, such as nukes and even annoying ranged creeps, whereas Hag is much more mobile and her DPS in theory makes her a better offensively. (in theory...don't shoot me!)


I do not disagree with your analysis of Hag. Ascendant is much more solid overall, and he can get mad mad STR for superior HP, AND pump his nice area effect damage and snare attack.

Hag's blind is good, but swoop was nerfed a few times, and Rain of dull blades is really weak compared to Terra Pwna. I forgot her 4th ability which doesn't bode well I would guess...

[A_New_Dawn]

Nah, your numbers seem very reasonable and accurate, you seem to know far more about the technical parts to EotA then I do. I usually stick to the basic common sense stuff, makes the most sense to me anyway.