Geyser

[Ion]

If ever Yak feels bored enough to withstand the 45 minute way it is to load EotA and feels like listening to a balance complaint, here's probably a well known one.

Geyser is really annoying. The last few games I've played, both using and not using the team with Geyser has won. This is not just because of Geyser but Geyser does do a few serious things that makes it really ridiculous to play Undead. These are:

1) It is not stoppable. There is no concrete way of stopping Geyser (except for a complex method Elreth suggested) with any hero abilites. If you look at other major "siege" skills: Firestorm, Grand Rune, Heaven's Wrath (whatever you call it now), Rockslide (I think, Gravel's Ult) they're all "stoppable". You throw a net or a stun on the heroes and you can prevent the damage from being done. Now this can't be always (especially at the higher levels) but generally speaking, you are able to at least have a chance of stopping it. With Geyser, all Naga has to do is plop it down and it's near instant. There's no real way of countering it.

2) Due to the nature of Geyser, it exploits the AI in a way other spells don't. Geyser wouldn't be so powerful if your spawns didn't keep walking into it every time they fall down. It's like having Grand Rune repeat itself. Most heroes can avoid it, if they're lucky enough not to have it casted on their feet, but the same doesn't go for spawns. Soulbourne today brought up the factor of the AoE of Geyser being relatively small. I can go get pictures if need be, but in reality it's actually big enough to cover any main spawn pathway on Gloom or Storm. On Kedge it's a little less all-encompassing, and on Candleburg it's largely dependent on far you are from the middle, but regardless the AoE is quite large enough that units will continually walk into it.

3) Pushes get owned by Geyser. As I said, the AI is stupid and keeps walking into it. Only Golems can really live through it. And even then, because there are no real other units to deal with it's not that hard to take care of them. This makes pushing extremely frustrating.

Two possible suggestions I can think of are:

1) Making Geyser channeled. Elreth made the point that because Geyser actually lasts quite awaile, it may make the usefulness of Geyser dissipate. Heroes will automatically use their stun when seeing Geyser and will make it impossible to counter. Now you can say that, for characters like the IS (Blizzard), BP (Firestorm), Gravel (Rockslide), Plight (Heaven's Wrath [is what I call it I forget what Yak named it now]) the same thing: most of the effectiveness of their abilites is limited to whether or not they buy an AMS to accompany their spell. Personally, I find this the most appealing fix to Geyser, since I would have no problem with its damage, effects, and ability to stop pushes if you could stop it somehow.

2) Make Geyser have a set channeling time before running periodically. Because Geyser does not do loads of damage and it is possible for units to avoid it in some cases, perhaps making Geyser have say a, 2-3 second casting time (perhaps equivalent to GR?) and then the effects running off full would make it more feasible for enemy units to counter, as the uncounterability is the most imbalancing factor I find about the spell.

3) If all these seem unappealing, make Geyser dispellable or something.

If Yak ever feels like checking I'm only really interested to what he has to say about it so yeah. Coolbeans.

[A_New_Dawn]

Geyer doesn't hit very hard to begin with, and Oracle is REALLY weak. I mean her arrow thing is nice but a joke against hereos with high armor (tanks). Beffudle is awsome but can be dispelled, Heal owns, hmm, can't remember her other skill, anyway. I really don't think one spell is changing the entire course of a game. I don't have every aspect about her memerized cuz ive only played her like 3 times (shes kinda boring). Oh yeah, remembered her other ability, the dispell thing right? Also, can't you just go around geyser? it doesnt take up the entire path does it? ALso, what hero were you? cuz a good tank could easily take her. Bottom line Ion, I really don't think is the geyser thats the problem, just the hero thats against her....If your worried about her in games, simply pick a good tank with a stun...You'll done fine.

The AI is stupid with most spells, so pushing is annoying with most/AoEs cuz the creeps die so fast.

Frost Spire, while killable, most of the time they don't and you can place it behind or by your creeps, making it safe.
Roots (Crusader)
Firestorm
Grand Rune
Siphon Mana
Ignus Slavo
Maelstrom
you get the point....

Here are some heroes that would MORE than hold against Oracle...

Alexander (This would be worse than gay rape my friend)
Bane
Treant

Hope this helped...

[Dekar]

I support the idea of nerfing it after 1 or 2 games against and 1 game as Oracle in the last weeks.

Personally I would like to see it channeled.

[Soulbourne]

I like sitting in the middle of a geyser versing melee tanks and shooting them with 400+ damage arrows by 40

[randomd00d]

It does have a pretty long cooldown.

I mean a collusus can toss a big friggin rock and wipe out dozens of foes. (well, eventually)

Geyser is also not as useful for double-triple hits cuz players are smart enough to stay away...
and your friendly creeps will move up when they get tossed back and thus limit geyser to 1 hit.

Its great, but it is also situational.


Plus, it does very weak damage vs structures so it doesnt really count as a siege spell. Even a geyser with 1000 points of toss damage(!) way late game only does 5% of this to buildings, or 50 damage per second for 18 seconds = 900 damage.

A colossus with similar stats and level would hit multiple buildings for similar amounts. A DPS hero in much less than 18 seconds would do more than 900. And they wont need a 2 minute cooldown ultimate to do so.


Give Oracle some love... Geyser is one of her only fun spells that is useful!

[jamn455]

Sorry dude, but Geyser has a very low cooldown. You can go from one push to another and easily be able to cast geyser again in about 45-60 seconds.

And Ion, Heaven's Wrath is now Hell's Fury

[A_New_Dawn]

Granted, Geyser is a very nasty spell to counter, but not completely impossible, like I stated before, I think a large percentage has to do with your hero and skill of that hero. Oracle can abosuatly rape weak heroes, but a tough guy like Alex would crush her. I mean if you had crit gloves and decent INt you could probably take his shield down in 2-4 shots but still have to get through his magic reduction and STr. Don't know about you guys, but I think a STr based Alex mixed with Evo and some INt is a far better tank all around then just a INt based one. Also, think if he had demons, then hed really be hard to kill. I mean, hes got the stun does what 200dmg and 3sec or someting? then hes got HS does around 700 plus siphon mana (I know she can dispell it) does another 700 or so, thats 1600dmg right there with is far more hp than shes got and if you get really lucky, you trap her in GR. Also, Geyser doesn't really last that long, 18sec and the cooldown is fairly long (Jamn), I Just played her. Geyser also doesn't have a good radius, most of the time you can walk right past it and not even get hurt. Adding on to what randoom said, players are smart enough to stay away, hopefully. All in all, Geyser is not any more OP in terms of stoping pushes than any other AoE....just depends on what heroes you have and your ability to utilize them effectively...Just my opinion...
---A_New_Dawn

[Storamin]

I support the idea of nerfing it after 1 or 2 games against and 1 game as Oracle in the last weeks.

Personally I would like to see it channeled.

I think it should be channeled as well.

However, if it's gonna be channeled I think some other parts of the spell should be increased since channeling is a serious detriment. I just don't want to see what happened to the pally when WoW first came out... they overnerfed it.

[A_New_Dawn]

Love pallys, not pro at WOW though, what did they nerf on Pallys anyway? curious.....

[aegir ravenking]

Stupid idea probably, but what about making each "pulse" of geyser cost mana. Unless of course it is a constant effect and the sound effects are meaningless.

Even if that is the case constant mana drain would reduce the spamablilty of the thing. Also as a side effect that would stop Soulbourne from raping melee heros with zen arrows during it.

Only other none super-nerf fix I can think off would be somehow making and unit thrown by it immune to it, so they don't just walk back into it till they die.

[DarnYak]

If i ever feel like doing anything with geyser it would probably be to either make the wave's power reduce per wave, and/or make it hit randomly over a larger area (first one would always be dead center, but others may be distributed randomly more like meteor swarm)

DarnYak

[Ion]

Cool! That'd look fun.

[Elreth]

Or you could make it more like an actual Geyser and have it go off once and then go off again on a timer for the rest of the game. Every minute or.. two minutes. And then youd have to time it just right; maybe give the undead a timer display option for it. Itd be cool! Really! Okay, okay maybe not.

[Reaper]

All I know is it needs nerfed, it's ridiculously over powered.

I like the idea of doing less damage over time, maybe also longer cooldown

[aegir ravenking]

Don't forget, less lag would be good too, though you may be right it had more to do with all the spawn towers both sides had up.

[DarnYak]

Don't forget, less lag would be good too, though you may be right it had more to do with all the spawn towers both sides had up.

Pretty sure my testing of martyr showed that SetUnitFlyHeight (which is required to allow the units to fly up in the air) is a giagantic source of lag for no apparent cuase. Geyser will probably remain the only mass throw units in the air spell for this reason.

DarnYak

[Strychnyne]

I think the majority of the replies here are completely pointless. You are talking about hero to hero usefullness. That's not the issue. It doesn't matter in the slightest what hero you choose or who's playing. Things like getting a tank or walking around geyser is the key. No, you are COMPLETELY wrong. The AI that governs the spawns is what causes it to be such a powerful move. They don't walk around Geyser. They will always walk through it, over and over again. Once it you've got it you can hit any wave enough to kill it out right. Plus, its cool down is SO low. You can cast it twice in one push if you want.

Basically, what I'm saying is, read a little bit into the original post. This game isn't about hero vs. hero fights and it never has been. If you want that, go play DotA.

Also, I don't think Elreth's idea would really work, nor channeling. I do like the idea of wider spacing.

[Reaper]

It should be considered that basically every other ultimate in the game can be countered except geyser.

[A_New_Dawn]

Geyser lasts 18sec, has a long cooldown, and is easily avoided by hereos who half a brain. Only spawns are dumb enough to walk into it, or heroes with autism. You guys act as though its a dooms-day spell, it isn't. Granted, it is tough to deal with but not impossible. For one thing its range is not terribly wide, so most paths you can walk right past it, I've done it and seen people do it, even AI heroes. And yes some of it has to do with what hero you are, granted not all or even most, but certainly some. Its kinda hard to cast Geyser when your dead. (a good INf player with AGi could probably one shot Oracle) Also, can use just use those...what are they called...wands or something, don't use them ever, anyway the ones that prevent hereos from casting spells for what 15sec or something. That would be a very cheap way to aleast help against Geyser. Ill time Geyser and post its cooldown, but I know its NOT short.


--A_New_Dawn

Not against nerfing Geyer, just ruining it, Yak sadly already ruined Lich's Rend Soul,

[A_New_Dawn]

Ok, Geyser's cooldown is about 1min at lvl 1, it think it increases per lvl, anyway thats not terribly short...

[jamn455]

What you don't realize, even a good player can get geyser casted directly on them, there is no avoiding when you get stuck on a mountain and ascendant destroys you. The cooldown does not go up, if anything it goes down each level. Heroes aren't the game which is what you have to consider greatly. Good heroes don't win the game alone, they need backup from units at some point, and when they get 500 damage hits and their AI tells them to follow their path that means they die fast.

[A_New_Dawn]

Help from spawns? you mean the ones that get wiped from Geyser? Hmm, don't think I'd relay on spawns too much to "save" me from Geyser. Also, getting Geyser directed casted on you is pretty unlikely, unless you don't know wth your doing, and the chances of being flung into a spot were your "stuck" aren't very high either (most mountain tops have a path down and some of the hereos have a blink-like ability). But I'd have to admit it would be bad news if that happened and Ascendant showed up. Pretty sure the cooldown goes up, remember having to wait as long as christmas until I could cast it again, could be wrong though. Seems to me a couple of good hero killlers could deal with geyser easily enough, though the spawns could kinda help some I guess, if anything a mere diversion.

Hmm, so how about heroes like Fenny or Harpy? can they run/fly over it? that would keep Oracle at bay if they could. Or how about Charge? or Dash? never tried using the following abilities against Geyser so I'm curious.

[aegir ravenking]

You seem to be missing the point A_New_Dawn. As far as hero vs. hero, geyser is a nice interrupt, and a decent panic button spell, but I would hope to never kill a hero by it unless they were already weak and trying to run away with me casting it in front of them.

It isn't much of a problem in seiging a base, Grand Rune is stronger and covers a wider area. Sure level 1 or 2 GR isn't as likely to kill knights or polar bears as a well placed geyser, but that is about it. (Ok, just thought of this, it can also do a nice job against a double mercing as they will mostly be in a line by the time they run from an inside base, but you would have to know they coming).

The biggest problem is siege/push breaking, where on most maps the spawns are forced to run though a narrow choke point to attack either your spawns or you. They get thrown back, and try to attack again. 18 seconds is enough time for even an elite tank to kill themselves on a level 1 geyser. Then you can do it a minute later. With no chance of damage to yourself or your towers if you teleported in before the siege arrived. Even if you were a bit late as long as your defending spawns are still at half life and the enemies heroes aren't in your base you are still fine. If they heroes got into your base, then yes, they are capable of stopping you. Or if your spawns are all dead, then yes geyser isn't going to as good of a job. But remember, as soon as the spawns see you, they stop attacking the towers and move in a straight line, towards you, every time they hit the ground.

If you compare this to other push breakers the point should be mostly clear. A high powered DW usually won't be able to cover both the melee and ranged (and definitely not any siege) and if he can't one shot the melee, then he will need a meat shield. GR/siphon requires tanking (granted not much of problem) but both can be interrupted. Meteors can't get it all in one shot so something to tank needed. Only other one I can think of for the elves are mining, which is about as good, but requires a lot more work/foresight. Everyone else will always need something to tank for them.

As for the creeps, very late game Bane and Gravel are fine. Heroes anywhere near the base should stop the Icespinner. Scarab can do good unless the enemies have dispel, or great if your spawns are alive and you have healing wave. There is always Wail, unless they have an interrupt. Elder Treant's taunting treant will usually do good.AC will handle any push without any hero hunters around. The other 3(and none super-late game uber strength Bane/Gravel) will need spawns, even if no heroes oppose them.

/end Wall of Text

PS
If missed anyone/thing or any errors, I did this after working both my jobs on at most 5 hours of sleep, so don't bitch too much.

[Highlord Asehujiko]

Don't forget, less lag would be good too, though you may be right it had more to do with all the spawn towers both sides had up.

Pretty sure my testing of martyr showed that SetUnitFlyHeight (which is required to allow the units to fly up in the air) is a giagantic source of lag for no apparent cuase. Geyser will probably remain the only mass throw units in the air spell for this reason.

DarnYak

It causes lag because it attempts to recalculate the pathing for every single single "tick" of changing height. On a big map with alot of units arround, this can hurt a cpu pretty bad.

[A_New_Dawn]

Don't doubt the fact that Geyser wipes pushes, it does. But can't you say the same for almost every other AoE in the game? HS will one shot way before Geyser will, along with Siphon Mana, Caustic Breath, Gale, Roots, Sleep, Blade rain, Choas rift, GR, Meteors, Hell's, and almost every other AoE, so saying Geyser hits too hard isn't really a valid argument. The real problem with Geyser is that the spawns are too dumb to realize the danger and keep running in to it so by the time Geyser is done its dished out 2k dmg and completely raped a push. Geyser does need a nerf, I'll admit, but saying its WAY too OP and nothing can stop it is simply not true (and yes, certain people have hinted those words). Hmmm, not sure what you mean about "narrow points". Granted, there are a few in SW and other maps but mainly the road are plenty wide and you can walk right past Geyser. I know, I know, spawns can't/don't, but I'm talking about hereos here, Geyser is not nearly as deadly to heroes as it is to spawns. Actually its more of a nuesence than a real danger.

So heres a thought for nerfing Geyser...

have first wave do normal dmg, then any wave after that is reduced to 1/2 of the dmg dealt. Also a slight duration reduction wouldn't hurt either,

--A_New_Dawn