Eve of the Apocalypse: Twilight

An Aeon of Strife map for Warcraft 3
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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 7:54 pm 
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Not sure about the current versions Infiltrator. But with nets, or blink items, and well, her blink ability itself brought back her back stab viability.

As stated by others mines can be, or at least were. But not just that, you could use them for denial, more than often on the annoying one-lane map (forget what it was called) you could wipe out both side's minions, getting you a bunch of farm, while doing a MASSIVE denial verse them. Mines can be used to stop pushes in lanes you're not even at.

Her smoke is great for pushing towers, and a great PK move with smoke cloud stun talent. More often than not I would get the stun, run around and back stab, yet another thing that allows back stab to stay viable.

Blitz doesn't just have to be used as a ganking move. Mobility and map control is a nice thing, especially in obelisk control.


I wouldn't go as to say she's the top, especially since I haven't played in aeons, I would say that she isn't as hard countered by detection as people make it seem.

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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 11:23 pm 
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Tehw00tz wrote:
I am so confused by this. There are certain veteran players who know for a fact that inf is useless but you guys place her at the top of the tier list like she cant be touched.
Read the topic I created and please explain why those points are wrong and how she is actually useful
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1929


I am going to take some time to do this.

Here is your post:

tehw00tz wrote:
Like the topic says, heroes like Infiltrator, Swashy, Fenris, and Harpy have become increasingly useless in actual games. The way it seems is if you pick a right amount of support it doesn't even matter how much damage you do, you're going to lose based on the fact that you aren't buffing your creeps. This is mostly attributed to how ungodly bad these heroes do in the beginning phase. Most heroes can bide their time because they know that once level 30-level 40 rolls around they can easily start cleaning house (DW, AC, Oracle, RK, etc). The beginning of the game is a race for the hero killers to get as much stats and money as possible before these lane pushers/support heroes pull away from you because they are owning the control battle. Only one of these heroes has any means of getting a good amount of gold quickly, and that takes inf laying downs mines for a few minutes. Even getting a team of 4 support and 1 antihero completely destroys your chances, these antiheroes are basically played to how bad your opponent is, which is a horrible mechanism for a hero to work as (AoO/Swoop, anyone?). Once this experience difference begins to grow the hero killers cannot do that which they are supposed to anymore, which is fine if you're going intelligence on Harpy or Infiltrator, I guess. Heroes that can push lanes are a bigger part of the game because the hero killers have such a hard time getting to start and they easily fall behind after obs have been taken. Support heroes need not to spend their money on items for the most part, so they can just fortify their positions and not worry about anything happening. With recent updates to TC and BP they've become better (Which is not a bad thing), but it's made me realize that heroes with a focus on killing can barely do that, and even if they do get hero kills, you have to pump money into yourself to keep your nukes up, instead of helping the team out (building, mercing, etc). The whole killing heroes specifically thing becomes counter productive, while it may stop someone for 30 seconds, you're doing very little to helping your team out.


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The way it seems is if you pick a right amount of support it doesn't even matter how much damage you do, you're going to lose based on the fact that you aren't buffing your creeps.


This is really really map dependent. Completely false on Verdant. Stormwail is large enough that some heroes can backdoor effectively enough that it doesn't matter they aren't buffing creeps. Many of these heroes are capable of fulfilling multiple roles. Infiltrator in particular comes to mind. Mines are amazing at stopping creeps, she's mobile as fuck, and she can shutdown/kill towers with Smoke Cloud and Sabotage. All of her skills are good. She's an incredibly versatile hero.

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This is mostly attributed to how ungodly bad these heroes do in the beginning phase. Most heroes can bide their time because they know that once level 30-level 40 rolls around they can easily start cleaning house (DW, AC, Oracle, RK, etc). The beginning of the game is a race for the hero killers to get as much stats and money as possible before these lane pushers/support heroes pull away from you because they are owning the control battle.


I agree with this point, but I also think it's incredibly hard to judge the strength of hero killers because they are, more so than other heroes, dependent on player skill. I feel like a lot of people may have misunderstood what you meant by your post due to its somewhat sensationalist title, but I agree with the basics; I wouldn't use the word 'useless' but they're certainly not as good as other heroes that are not as item dependent. There are elements of these heroes that are useful regardless of whether or not they can actually kill their opponents (stuns interrupting GR, Fenny's slow, etc.) and I definitely think you're being overly dismissive with whatever potential they have left.

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Only one of these heroes has any means of getting a good amount of gold quickly, and that takes inf laying downs mines for a few minutes. Even getting a team of 4 support and 1 antihero completely destroys your chances, these antiheroes are basically played to how bad your opponent is, which is a horrible mechanism for a hero to work as (AoO/Swoop, anyone?).


I agree with you on Swoop. It can't hit moving targets. AoO not so much; even if you dance your hero it can still hit you for a lot, and you're forced into facing away from inf if you run. You bring up a good point with gold, however, as only a few of the 'hero killers' are capable of killing creeps en masse. There are a few parts of the game that I think can help this problem; some I think are majorly unexplored -- having your support allies pool you gold for items and last-hitting creeps. While the former is not always practical I think if more higher-level games are played we could see stuff like this happening.

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Once this experience difference begins to grow the hero killers cannot do that which they are supposed to anymore, which is fine if you're going intelligence on Harpy or Infiltrator, I guess.


Int inf is good, but I'm still skeptical about int harpy.

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Heroes that can push lanes are a bigger part of the game because the hero killers have such a hard time getting to start and they easily fall behind after obs have been taken.


Is this post only supposed to be for Stormwail?

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Support heroes need not to spend their money on items for the most part, so they can just fortify their positions and not worry about anything happening. With recent updates to TC and BP they've become better (Which is not a bad thing), but it's made me realize that heroes with a focus on killing can barely do that, and even if they do get hero kills, you have to pump money into yourself to keep your nukes up, instead of helping the team out (building, mercing, etc). The whole killing heroes specifically thing becomes counter productive, while it may stop someone for 30 seconds, you're doing very little to helping your team out.


Having death be a bigger deal may actually help solve this problem. Perhaps having longer respawn times or an even larger gold bonus could help.


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 11:39 pm 
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Is this post only supposed to be for Stormwail?

Probably, considering that all the other maps were not realistic alternatives untill recently. Even Verdant took a while before it became somewhat balanced (although it hasn't seen play in a few weeks)

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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 11:42 pm 
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Abolished God tier, moved them to very good. While these heroes are strong, their overall success is largely dependent on success in the early game and opponents not playing properly. Until the debate is resolved this is where they will stay.


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 11:48 pm 
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I dont think anyone was arguing against Swashy, which means you downgraded him purely on my performance playing him today ;P

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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 11:53 pm 
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DarnYak wrote:
I dont think anyone was arguing against Swashy, which means you downgraded him purely on my performance playing him today ;P

DarnYak


The tier-list is secretly a Yak success graph.

Honestly I don't think he belonged there in the first place. Popular demand influenced me to put him higher because there has been a lot of bitching recently.

Also, Squall icon fixed.


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PostPosted: January 23rd, 2012, 2:13 am 
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Tehw00tz wrote:
I am so confused by this. There are certain veteran players who know for a fact that inf is useless but you guys place her at the top of the tier list like she cant be touched.
Read the topic I created and please explain why those points are wrong and how she is actually useful
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1929


It takes a bit more than just clicking on heroes to own with inf.
She was always extremly good in the hands of some players and the increased bounty for hero kills just made her that much better.

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PostPosted: January 27th, 2012, 4:21 pm 
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Infiltrator is bad. She is good in the hands of a good player playing against a team with stupid players playing int heroes. That doesn't make her good, that just means there are people that play the game that aren't smart enough to play against her.

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PostPosted: January 27th, 2012, 5:52 pm 
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So do you want to spend all your little tanky STR hero mana/gold for detection or rather walk into explosive traps with enough damage to kill you instantly?

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Dekar: the ultimate ocean themed hero should buff and depend on spawn waves!
DarnYak: why is that
Dekar: WAVES
Dekar: :D
DarnYak: i was afraid that was the answer


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PostPosted: January 27th, 2012, 9:51 pm 
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More time she is spending placing mines in areas that you can't see is more experience and gold that she is missing at that time. All that does is put her further and further behind in the grand scheme of things.

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PostPosted: January 28th, 2012, 10:45 am 
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Übergod tier for Inf until we have a full team of cloned jamns to counter her, then she will be ranked terrible.

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Dekar: the ultimate ocean themed hero should buff and depend on spawn waves!
DarnYak: why is that
Dekar: WAVES
Dekar: :D
DarnYak: i was afraid that was the answer


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PostPosted: January 28th, 2012, 3:02 pm 
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Just because jamn has a brain doesn't mean you have to clone him to get a team full of people that actually have brains. Infiltraitor is a shitbad horrible hero. Her only PvP skill is completely based on the fact that the retard has to have lower than 30 actions per minute for it to hit. Watch a game of HoN with an engineer that using mines or a game of DotA with a techies in it, they fall behind so far in gold and experience its honestly a waste of a hero space. And since EotA has a higher exp cap it means that infiltraitor can fall behind easily in levels while the other team has people buffing their creeps and taking obs and getting further ahead. Inf is the worst hero in the game and the fact that there are people who think she's useful let alone the best hero in the game just scares me.

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PostPosted: January 28th, 2012, 4:51 pm 
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Im happy everyone disagreeing is going to show up tomorrow to prove me wrong ( and even though Oracle with permanent innate spam on me may not accurately reflect most of infs matchups, I will happily play against that too if someone wishes that ).

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Dekar: the ultimate ocean themed hero should buff and depend on spawn waves!
DarnYak: why is that
Dekar: WAVES
Dekar: :D
DarnYak: i was afraid that was the answer


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PostPosted: January 29th, 2012, 10:17 am 
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As much as I want to buy Warcraft 3 for the third time and play it once to prove you wrong, I think I'll have to pass.

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PostPosted: January 29th, 2012, 12:45 pm 
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Boo!

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Dekar: the ultimate ocean themed hero should buff and depend on spawn waves!
DarnYak: why is that
Dekar: WAVES
Dekar: :D
DarnYak: i was afraid that was the answer


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PostPosted: March 2nd, 2012, 4:07 pm 
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Move Ember to very good NAOW!

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Dekar: the ultimate ocean themed hero should buff and depend on spawn waves!
DarnYak: why is that
Dekar: WAVES
Dekar: :D
DarnYak: i was afraid that was the answer


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PostPosted: March 8th, 2012, 12:07 am 
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Hmmmm, sounds like I need to bring out my Lane Infiltrator some weekend!

Or we could just give her Stun Mines back instead of those pesky damage mines. That was what, 1.04? 1.05? GOOD TIMES!


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PostPosted: March 12th, 2012, 5:28 pm 
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I'd say Ascendant should currently be moved up.

His new skills make him a very useful hero (especially considering he has the ability to see invis with his talent)


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PostPosted: March 18th, 2012, 9:14 am 
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I'm deeply dissappointed by your lack of commitment to updating this list.

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PostPosted: March 18th, 2012, 8:52 pm 
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DarnYak wrote:
I'm deeply dissappointed by your lack of commitment to updating this list.

Darnyak


Can't update it if I don't play ;P Sorry I've missed the last few, I'll try to make it in the coming weeks.


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PostPosted: March 25th, 2012, 9:24 pm 
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I don't think Neph deserves to be in Good tier. He might have good interrupts, but he's really unwieldy to use and extremely dependent on game lag. His damage output is rather low and he burns through mana very quickly. At best, he can be a nuisance with False Alliance, but he can't really do anything else, especially against spawns.

I also don't think AM should be in Very Good, at least for now. Three of her skills get easily countered by dispels: Mind Fog, Haunt, and Ethereal. Haunt is awesome when she is sieging, making her great offensively but bad against defending lanes since it does nothing. She can't work that well with physically-based heroes (like Inf) except to throw out that fog.
I'll retract this statement from today's games, but Mind Fog still gets countered easily by the staff.

Still pushing for Aero to be moved to Very Good. With her AoE, innate, and hold, she works well with basically any team that doesn't have too many frail heroes.


Last edited by watermelon on April 1st, 2012, 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: March 26th, 2012, 5:54 am 
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Neph's werid, I think you have to know a specific skill set/chain and he becomes fairly godly - other then that he becomes fairly shitty.

AM's place is paretly due to mind fog during font battles on verdant, which we haven't done lately.

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PostPosted: March 26th, 2012, 7:39 pm 
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Neph is one of my favourite heros.

I usually go for 'war' and 'blood' as my abilities, with 'fire' being my lesser ability (I obviously choose ulti aswell).
I think he's very good for someone who wants to be able to change their hero type very quickly in a game (kinda like CS).

Plus, he can be very self-sufficient. If you use his self-heals and the blood spell that transforms hp into mana, you can basically restore him to full hp in just a few minutes, whilst also in battle.
He can also be very good as a support/siege hero. If you use his 'retaliation' spell (I think it's a 'war' spell) you can basically take out every creep in a push.
His 'execute' spell works wonders for finishing off escaping enemy heros, especially if used whilst in the vicinity of towers.

If anything, I believe Neph should be moved higher. He's just too flexible to be only considered 'good'
P.S. I'm going to check if 'scintilate' has been fixed soon, luckily I don't really use it for its immolation effect. Also, I'm gonna check to see if his fireball spell from his ulti list (Hisan Salvo is the name, I think) actually has it's total damage values some up when you use '-s', it usually shows '(0 damage)'


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PostPosted: March 26th, 2012, 9:57 pm 
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I haven't actually tried that build yet so I might be wrong on criticizing Neph too much. I don't feel like Neph can be tanky though without having the correct items, which is often hard to get in a real game.

Although Neph is probably the most flexible hero in EotA, a lot of his skills are garbage or don't do enough, and it seems like only a few builds are viable and the other skills are used only for cycling. Neph doesn't even get used frequently enough to be in Good.
It doesn't look like Yak will try to fix or buff him either (except hopefully to fix/change/remove False Alliance).


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PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 6:32 am 
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Well if Infiltrator is one of the best heroes in the game, and Neph cannot be killed by Infiltrator with False Alliance, I think that means Neph is one of the best heroes in the game.

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